What happens if you refuse to give details?

[Sad Sprinter]

Just curious, this is not in a position I am in, but what can an Revenue Protection Officer do if you absolutely refuse to give your details to them? Do they call the British Transport Police to escort you off the train?

When I was at uni, I knew of people who were travelling without railcards who got caught, and gave fake details. From what I recall nothing ever happened to them. Is it usual for people to get away with it if you give fake details to a RPO or will they just look for you even harder?

 

[6Gman]

If BTP are available they may attend. I believe they have the power of arrest if you still refuse to give details.

If you give fake details then you may well get away with it. Or you may not.

I was on a long distance train a while back. Two lads, two discounted tickets, one railcard. The Train Manager offered them three options: new ticket (£150+), give details, or be met by BTP at next station. After a lot of haggling they gave details. I overheard the address given, a quick google found neither the address nor the postcode existed. The TM left, the two lads smirked that they had got away with it.

They weren't smirking when BTP met them at the next station stop.

(Train Managers can also check addresses ...)

And, of course, staff can also remember faces.



(I have used "you" throughout for convenience; I am not referring to @SadSprinter !)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Difficult question time! I'd like to know the answer too, but we might be falling into the 'manual for fare dodgers' trap...

(Edited rather late in the day to clarify what I mean. Apologies for confusion caused.)

 

[bramling]

Just curious, this is not in a position I am in, but what can an Revenue Protection Officer do if you absolutely refuse to give your details to them? Do they call the British Transport Police to escort you off the train?

When I was at uni, I knew of people who were travelling without railcards who got caught, and gave fake details. From what I recall nothing ever happened to them. Is it usual for people to get away with it if you give fake details to a RPO or will they just look for you even harder?

The answer is it depends.

If there’s no prospect of BTP assistance and you look to be of the type that is likely to give proper trouble then nothing, although it is likely details will be logged and you would need to keep a low profile in future especially with regular patterns of travel.

However in other situations it will be a case of look harder, and get BTP support if necessary. Revenue staff do restrain people as well.

Generally refusing to give details or giving fake details is in most cases likely to make the situation worse, so isn’t an advisable course of action. However human nature is such that if one encounters an RPI with an attitude problem then it can be tempting. If one is going to go down that road then one wants to be totally certain that the ticket being used is valid.

 

[Haywain]

I was on a long distance train a while back. Two lads, two discounted tickets, one railcard. The Train Manager offered them three options: new ticket (£150+), give details, or be met by BTP at next station. After a lot of haggling they gave details. I overheard the address given, a quick google found neither the address nor the postcode existed. The TM left, the two lads smirked that they had got away with it.

They weren't smirking when BTP met them at the next station stop.

Particularly silly on a long distance train when most major stations will have a full time BTP presence.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

If BTP are available they may attend. I believe they have the power of arrest if you still refuse to give details.

If you give fake details then you may well get away with it. Or you may not.

I was on a long distance train a while back. Two lads, two discounted tickets, one railcard. The Train Manager offered them three options: new ticket (£150+), give details, or be met by BTP at next station. After a lot of haggling they gave details. I overheard the address given, a quick google found neither the address nor the postcode existed. The TM left, the two lads smirked that they had got away with it.

They weren't smirking when BTP met them at the next station stop.

(Train Managers can also check addresses ...)

And, of course, staff can also remember faces.



(I have used "you" throughout for convenience; I am not referring to @SadSprinter !)

I mean you could still give an address that you know existed, although I suppose they can check the electoral register to see the occupants. May as well just buy a new ticket.

Difficult question time! I'd like to know the answer too, but we might be falling into the manual for fare dodgers trap...

The what, sorry?

 

[Haywain]

The what, sorry?

The 'manual for fare dodgers' trap. That is, a trap that leads to us contributing to the 'fare dodgers manual'.

 

[Iskra]

The answer is it depends.

If there’s no prospect of BTP assistance and you look to be of the type that is likely to give proper trouble then nothing, although it is likely details will be logged and you would need to keep a low profile in future especially with regular patterns of travel.

However in other situations it will be a case of look harder, and get BTP support if necessary. Revenue staff do restrain people as well.

Generally refusing to give details or giving fake details is in most cases likely to make the situation worse, so isn’t an advisable course of action. However human nature is such that if one encounters an RPI with an attitude problem then it can be tempting. If one is going to go down that road then one wants to be totally certain that the ticket being used is valid.

Considering you are allowed to walk away from a police officer, you don’t have to engage with them, although they can arrest you to ascertain your name and address (so probably not worth doing so). I’m not sure how RPI’s would have greater powers than this? Under what legislation could an RPI detain someone, who was remaining silent and just walking away from them? They could easily just be a deaf person, have a mental impairment or be a confused tourist that doesn’t understand what’s happening. Doesn’t strike me as reasonable behaviour

 

[6Gman]

I mean you could still give an address that you know existed,

They may well get away with it the first time. The second time. The third time.

They might never get caught.

On the other hand they might be caught out at any point, and then they'll be on here worrying that their planned career - teacher, solicitor, medic - will be ruined.

Considering you are allowed to walk away from a police officer, you don’t have to engage with them, although they can arrest you to ascertain your name and address (so probably not worth doing so). I’m not sure how RPI’s would have greater powers than this? Under what legislation could an RPI detain someone, who was remaining silent and just walking away from them? They could easily just be a deaf person, have a mental impairment or be a confused tourist that doesn’t understand what’s happening. Doesn’t strike me as reasonable behaviour

Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5 (2).

It actually gives them power to detain a person until such time as they can be brought before a justice so pretty open-ended!

Realistically unlikely to be used unless it's literally a few minutes waiting for BTP to arrive and to take over.

 

[transportphoto]

Revenue staff do restrain people as well.

Most, if not all, TOCs will have have a policy against this.

 

[bramling]

Most, if not all, TOCs will have have a policy against this.

They can position themselves in such a way as to stop a person moving though, especially if the person is seated somewhere awkward like at a table. I’ve seen this done quite frequently.

 

[Krokodil]

From the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (as amended)

5 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.​

(1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

Someone with no ticket and no funds is obliged by law to give their name and address.

(2)If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses or fails on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

So yes, an RPI can detain you, using reasonable force if necessary. They are unlikely to rugby-tackle you these days, but standing in a position where you could not walk past without pushing them isn't uncommon.

(3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(c)Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

If you give false details and are found out (there are ways of checking, such as the electoral roll) they are liable to pay a fine. By "fine", I don't mean a £100 penalty fare or an out of court settlement, I mean a proper, court-imposed fine of £1,000.

If an RPI or a guard involves the police because someone isn't co-operative, and that person refuses to give details to the police officer, the cuffs are likely to go on. I've seen it happen. If you were just walking down a street you are under no obligation to give your details to a police officer, but if they have a reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime (which is a given in this scenario, you've already failed to produce your ticket/payment/details to the RPI). Give false details to a police officer and we're into "obstruction of a police officer" territory.

 

[Haywain]

a proper, court-imposed fine of £1,000.

Up to £1000.

 

[peterblue]

They may well get away with it the first time. The second time. The third time.

They might never get caught.

On the other hand they might be caught out at any point, and then they'll be on here worrying that their planned career - teacher, solicitor, medic - will be ruined.


Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5 (2).

It actually gives them power to detain a person until such time as they can be brought before a justice so pretty open-ended!

Realistically unlikely to be used unless it's literally a few minutes waiting for BTP to arrive and to take over.

This will be very rarely used in practice as falsely detaining someone is considered serious. It's a legal minefield.

 

[Bensonby]

Most, if not all, TOCs will have have a policy against this.

Some do though. I was very grateful indeed to the Southeastern RPIs who came to my assistance and helped restrain a man I had arrested for assaulting a young lady on a late night train (as an off duty police officer).

 

[londonbridge]

If BTP are available they may attend. I believe they have the power of arrest if you still refuse to give details.

Indeed they do, on one occasion as I walked along the platform I overheard a BTP officer telling a passenger that “if you don’t want to give me your details I’ll have to arrest you”.

 

[Watershed]

I mean a proper, court-imposed fine of £1,000

The fine is unlikely to be £100, but equally, it's misleading to suggest that the fine at Court would automatically be £1,000. That is the maximum penalty the law allows. The Sentencing Guidelines suggest a Band A to C fine, depending on the circumstances of the offence - i.e. 25-175% of the defendant's weekly income.

Therefore, for a £1,000 fine to be imposed:

• the offence would have to fall into category 1 (aggressive, abusive or disruptive behaviour, combined with high revenue loss)
• there would have to be many aggravating factors (e.g. previous convictions, avoiding paying any of the fare, abuse to staff) and no/few mitigating factors (e.g. remorse, good character, age/lack of maturity)
• the defendant would have be earning at least £30k a year (£571 a week)

 

[Haywain]

This will be very rarely used in practice as falsely detaining someone is considered serious. It's a legal minefield.

Actually, the ability to detain people is used regularly by the simple expedient of not releasing the doors of a train at a station until the police are present.

 

[Tallguy]

Actually, the ability to detain people is used regularly by the simple expedient of not releasing the doors of a train at a station until the police are present.

Potential false imprisonment of the other passengers and you can just hit the emergency door release…..

 

[Krokodil]

Some do though. I was very grateful indeed to the Southeastern RPIs who came to my assistance and helped restrain a man I had arrested for assaulting a young lady on a late night train (as an off duty police officer).

It's a bit of a different scenario from ticketless travel.

 

[Haywain]

Potential false imprisonment of the other passengers and you can just hit the emergency door release…..

For a matter of a couple of minutes most people manage to show some patience, especially as it is usually explained.

 

[scrapy]

Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5 (2).

It actually gives them power to detain a person until such time as they can be brought before a justice so pretty open-ended!

Realistically unlikely to be used unless it's literally a few minutes waiting for BTP to arrive and to take over.

Whilst the law may give such powers, I don't know a TOC that would ask an employee to or support an employee using such powers. They specifically tell staff not to do this.

 

[bramling]

Actually, the ability to detain people is used regularly by the simple expedient of not releasing the doors of a train at a station until the police are present.

That might work at a large station where BTP have half a chance of turning up, but it won’t work everywhere. It also causes serious displeasure for other passengers, and (IMO) with good reason.

 

[Watershed]

For a matter of a couple of minutes most people manage to show some patience, especially as it is usually explained.

Patience or not, that doesn't change whether it constitutes unlawful imprisonment. Not everyone has time to spare and for the sake of one potential fare evader, it's grossly disproportionate to delay tens or hundreds of other passengers.

 

[island]

Whilst the law may give such powers, I don't know a TOC that would ask an employee to or support an employee using such powers. They specifically tell staff not to do this.

Indeed. The main consequence of those powers is that someone detaining a passenger for non-payment (but not an entire train of passengers) has a defence if they get sued.

 

[LowLevel]

The only time you should hold the doors is if the police are present and waiting to allow them to get themselves into position. Doing it on the off chance someone might appear is silly.

Until recently I doubt it has ever been described as false imprisonment though and I doubt any Railway person has ever been prosecuted for it for holding the doors closed - is it really imprisonment as for example unlike a car where if the driver locks you in you really might not be able to get out, on a train you aren't really locked in - there's generally an egress handle.

Is it false imprisonment if I comply with the local instruction at Manchester Piccadilly not to open the doors at the B end of platforms 13 and 14 and instead hold the doors until we move up to the A end, sometimes for a couple of minutes?

 

[Watershed]

is it really imprisonment as for example unlike a car where if the driver locks you in you really might not be able to get out, on a train you aren't really locked in - there's generally an egress handle.

It's a criminal offence to use that handle unless there's an emergency, so that's unlikely to consitute a defence.

Is it false imprisonment if I comply with the local instruction at Manchester Piccadilly not to open the doors at the B end of platforms 13 and 14 and instead hold the doors until we move up to the A end, sometimes for a couple of minutes?

No, because in that case there are (at least arguably) legitimate safety and operational grounds for not releasing the doors at the B end. The only reason for keeping the doors locked in this hypothetical is to detain someone else, and that seems unlikely to pass muster.

 

[Momuss97]

I know the “right” answer to this question is that you shouldn’t give fake details.

Reality is that you will almost certainly not get caught. If someone memorises a random address, there is little risk that it will get traced back to them. Even harder if you give a foreign address

 

[Bald Rick]

More or less every RPI I see on my line asks for ID with an address on, and if none provided, asks for the address details, and then checks them on line. A couple of months back one guy gave fake details, was called out, and was met at the next station by 6 BTP officers…

 

[35B]

Potential false imprisonment of the other passengers and you can just hit the emergency door release…..

It's a while back now, but I recall being on a train stopped a while at Rugby for BTP to attend to deal with smokers refusing to abide by the smoking restrictions*. The reason for the delay was announced and, sat in the carriage where the smokers were, there was no sense of false detention - just approval for the guard who was dealing with the problem.

* - I said it was a long time ago. Smoking on trains was still allowed, and InterCity's Mk2s had just been changed from 5 bays non/3 bays smoking to all smoking or all non-smoking. They'd booked smoking seats that were now non-smoking, on a full train.