What was the regular service pattern and trains (units) on the CLC in the 1980s?

[BeijingDave]

I was born in 1980 and remember we usually used to travel into Manchester Victoria from Warrington Bank Quay (with my mum to go shopping in the 'big city') in the 1980s, presumably because of the ease of access/car parking at Bank Quay compared to Central if coming from the south side of town.

However, I also remember going on a fast (possibly semi-fast) DMU from Warrington Central to Oxford Road occasionally. Does this seem possible or is my mind playing tricks on me?

What was the regular service pattern and units? I assume one Liverpool - Warrington stopper, one Warrington - Manchester stopper (as is the case now) on a 115, but is that correct? And what were the fast/semi-fast services? Were they also a 115 or were there loco-hauled services? As I recall, the loco-hauled trans-pennine were Llandudno-Newcastle (through Bank Quay).

 

[jfollows]

From the 1986 working timetable: Hunt's Cross to Oxford Road stopper and loco-hauled fast train each hour.

Two years later, 1988, the fast service was DMU(S) and called additionally every other hour at Hunt's Cross for connections into the stopper. The fasts were xx.30/xx.35 from Liverpool and the stopper xx.51 from Hunt's Cross but apart from retiming the basic service was much the same, however there was an additional Hunt's Cross to Warrington stopper half an hour off the one to Oxford Road.

 

[BeijingDave]

From the 1986 working timetable: Hunt's Cross to Oxford Road stopper and loco-hauled fast train each hour.

Two years later, 1988, the fast service was DMU(S) and called additionally every other hour at Hunt's Cross for connections into the stopper. The fasts were xx.30/xx.35 from Liverpool and the stopper xx.51 from Hunt's Cross but apart from retiming the basic service was much the same, however there was an additional Hunt's Cross to Warrington stopper half an hour off the one to Oxford Road.

Very interesting, thanks for the information. So many questions, I'm afraid...

On the 1986 timetable there appears to be a Hunts Cross-Hough Green service (if I've read it correctly). What could possibly have been the rationale for that?

In 1988, was the fast service (DMU) a Manchester terminator, or did it go onwards to Hull/Sheffield?

What were the formations? I seem to remember some were 2-car and some were 3-car, but was the 2-car the stopper and the 3-car the fast or the other way around?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that the stoppers only worked from Hunts X - I assume people were encouraged to use Merseyrail to reach them, though it's all a bit "Gateshead example"* of forcing a change of very little benefit other than to save I guess one unit from the diagrams.

How was the reversal done at Hunts X? Was it at least always cross platform?

* Often used as a reason not to do bus-rail integration, this was the rather silly 1980s situation, which was short-lived, that buses would terminate at Gateshead rather than taking the bridge over to Newcastle, forcing a change onto the Metro which meant a longer journey and more inconvenience.

 

[jfollows]

Very interesting, thanks for the information. So many questions, I'm afraid...

On the 1986 timetable there appears to be a Hunts Cross-Hough Green service (if I've read it correctly). What could possibly have been the rationale for that?

In 1988, was the fast service (DMU) a Manchester terminator, or did it go onwards to Hull/Sheffield?

What were the formations? I seem to remember some were 2-car and some were 3-car, but was the 2-car the stopper and the 3-car the fast or the other way around?

I am only guessing that the 1986 2F87 15:34 Hunt's Cross to Hough Green was some kind of school service.

In 1988 the fast service was as shown unless the top of the column says otherwise, so the 11:35 Liverpool went to Norwich whereas the 12:30 Liverpool went to Oxford Road. The 13:35 went to Yarmouth but the 10:30 and 14:30 only went as far as Oxford Road.

The stopper was D1 so first-generation DMU. The fasts by 1986 were DMU(S) so pre-dated the Class 158 in 1986 and I can't remember what they were at the time - class 150 perhaps?

[See https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/post-33060-0-49734300-1544550289-jpg.106670/ for an explanation of what D1 means; essentially the ratio of motor to trailer coaches.]

[I moved away from Manchester in 1980 and didn't move back until 1996 so I don't have much in the way of personal memories here.]

 

[Watershed]

The fasts by 1986 were DMU(S) so pre-dated the Class 158 in 1986 and I can't remember what they were at the time - class 150 perhaps?

DMU(S) in 1986 would have been a class 150. 153s and 156s hasn't been built yet at that point.

 

[jfollows]

DMU(S) in 1986 would have been a class 150. 153s and 156s hasn't been built yet at that point.

Thank you.

Interesting that the stoppers only worked from Hunts X - I assume people were encouraged to use Merseyrail to reach them, though it's all a bit "Gateshead example"* of forcing a change of very little benefit other than to save I guess one unit from the diagrams.

How was the reversal done at Hunts X? Was it at least always cross platform?

* Often used as a reason not to do bus-rail integration, this was the rather silly 1980s situation, which was short-lived, that buses would terminate at Gateshead rather than taking the bridge over to Newcastle, forcing a change onto the Metro which meant a longer journey and more inconvenience.

Hunts Cross electrification was apparently completed by May 1983 (http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/dates.shtm).
My recollection, which may be wrong, is that this was done on the basis that the electric stoppers would then replace the stoppers from Lime Street, which they appear to have done for a number of years.
I think the relatively sparse service allowed the connection at Hunts Cross to be cross-platform.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hazel Grove chord opened in 1986, and the Windsor Link (Salford) in 1988/89. The Airport line opened in 1993.
CLC trains had few options beyond Oxford Road/Piccadilly before then, and did not run towards Stalybridge either.

 

[Taunton]

As I remember it in the earlier 1980s, the service was an hourly "express", run with the small fleet of 4-car suburban units, actually quite nicely furnished. These long left the two ends of the route at 30 minutes past the hour, taking about 45 minutes. At Manchester they ran through Oxford Road, and along to the Piccadilly through platforms. These were supplemented by all stations 2-car Derby-built units, also hourly, which left the termini on the hour, and each arrived at Warrington shortly before the express, turned round, and followed it back. There were quite a lot of supplementary peak period services.

 

[30907]

Very interesting, thanks for the information. So many questions, I'm afraid...

On the 1986 timetable there appears to be a Hunts Cross-Hough Green service (if I've read it correctly). What could possibly have been the rationale for that?

The clue lies in the 3min pathing on all the stoppers - this was in preparation for the opening of Halewood. Why Hough Green was chosen as the terminus not Widnes when trains had to continue ECS to Widnes East isn't obvious, and I lack local knowledge.
By 1988 the shuttle has become an hourly Pacer to Warrington, so obviously an issue had to be resolved.

 

[Bevan Price]

The clue lies in the 3min pathing on all the stoppers - this was in preparation for the opening of Halewood. Why Hough Green was chosen as the terminus not Widnes when trains had to continue ECS to Widnes East isn't obvious, and I lack local knowledge.
By 1988 the shuttle has become an hourly Pacer to Warrington, so obviously an issue had to be resolved.

Hough Green is the eastern limit of the Merseytravel area, so they would not support financially any trains beyond there (even if the trains had to go empty through Widnes.) Crazy politics.

 

[Ianigsy]

The clue lies in the 3min pathing on all the stoppers - this was in preparation for the opening of Halewood. Why Hough Green was chosen as the terminus not Widnes when trains had to continue ECS to Widnes East isn't obvious, and I lack local knowledge.

Last station within Merseyside. At the time, the Loop, Link and reopening to Garston and Hunts Cross meant that a fortune had been spent on what’s now Merseyrail while the City Line services had been left with slim pickings, so around this time MPTE started funding additional services to the likes of Hough Green, Garswood and Newton-le-Willows on the very edge of the county.

Prior to electrification reaching Hunts Cross, the service had been an hourly stopper Liverpool-Oxford Road and an hourly fast Liverpool-Piccadilly calling Widnes, Warrington and Oxford Road only- quite a lively run all told. Once the electrics reached Hunts Cross, the stopper was cut back to there - last time I looked, the reversing siding was still there to the west of the station. Although the service was sparse, the stoppers were fitted in between the fast trains so a stopper terminating at Hunts Cross would have had an express 5-10 mins behind it by the time it had emptied out.

That said, on Sundays the stoppers ran through into Lime Street and at one point the Hough Green call was provided by a through train from Norwich. Growing up in Birkenhead and having a cousin in Hough Green, any changes in the service were very pertinent!

 

[john prytherch]

When I first started using the CLC, 1975 to 1980, the service was all DMU. The fasts called only at Widnes (ex Farnworth) and Warrington Central, Oxford Road and Piccadilly where they usually terminated in P14 and started back about 5 minutes later. These were four car units with the two outer coaches powered (I think by Rolls Royce engines - they could be quite noisy), the two middle ones trailers, which were quite comfortable if a little bouncy. I think these trains had some similarities with those that worked out of Marylebone, and St Pancras - Bedford. Off peak stoppers ran Lime Street - Warrington and Oxford Road - Warrington; I think these were usually Derby units. A few extra services ran Liverpool - Hunts Cross and Manchester OR - Irlam (going on empty to Glazebrook to cross over).

Nothing worked beyond Manchester until about the mid 1980s when 156's appeared, working through to Norwich! These were later replaced by class 31s (though occasionally other classes) on four or occasionally five coaches. Then in the late 1980s the north trans Pennine expresses (Liverpool - Newcastle), worked mainly by 47s, were transferred from the Chat Moss route. They were later replaced by 158s, and then the south trans Pennine 31s were replaced by sprinters, at first 156s again, but later 170s. Then they became the present 158s (a few of them ex Northern Spirit); and I think these still work for EMR on the services to Nottingham and Norwich. The trans Pennine services n the CLC have been replaced by Northern 195s which work Airport semi-fasts and some of the stoppers (through Lime St - Oxford Road). Trans Pennine have now gone back to Chat Moss.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Ironically South Transpennine via stockport, Sheffield to Cleethorpes will soon use the CLC vice Manchester airport and using 68+mk5 so this has almost gone full circle

 

[jfollows]

As I remember it in the earlier 1980s, the service was an hourly "express", run with the small fleet of 4-car suburban units, actually quite nicely furnished. These long left the two ends of the route at 30 minutes past the hour, taking about 45 minutes. At Manchester they ran through Oxford Road, and along to the Piccadilly through platforms. These were supplemented by all stations 2-car Derby-built units, also hourly, which left the termini on the hour, and each arrived at Warrington shortly before the express, turned round, and followed it back. There were quite a lot of supplementary peak period services.

Here's an example of this timetable from 1977, when I went to school in Manchester and went home from Oxford Road to Macclesfield in the afternoons.
The thing to note was there were only 4 other passenger services each way off-peak between Oxford Road and Piccadilly, which were the Altrincham-Alderley Edge/Crewe services every 15 minutes. So the Liverpool-Piccadilly "fast" DMUs had time to reverse between EMU services in platform 14 (usually) at Piccadilly.
[Annoyingly, in 1974 the major timetable recast meant that the 16:03 EMU Oxford Road-Piccadilly became the 15:57 EMU and the difference meant that I usually missed it, so I had to make a brisk walk to Piccadilly to catch the 16:10 to Poynton. By 1977 I was less bothered and waited for the 16:12 EMU from Oxford Road instead.]
The fast DMUs were Class 115 Derby 4-car D4 units, https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-115/manchester-liverpool

EDIT Fast Liverpool services booked Piccadilly platform 13 in 1974 anyway. My memory is of P14 but that may have been unusual.

 

[Revaulx]

As I remember it in the earlier 1980s, the service was an hourly "express", run with the small fleet of 4-car suburban units, actually quite nicely furnished. These long left the two ends of the route at 30 minutes past the hour, taking about 45 minutes. At Manchester they ran through Oxford Road, and along to the Piccadilly through platforms. These were supplemented by all stations 2-car Derby-built units, also hourly, which left the termini on the hour, and each arrived at Warrington shortly before the express, turned round, and followed it back. There were quite a lot of supplementary peak period services.

That’s all spot on. The resolutely suburban 115s always felt odd on a fast inter-city service, but they were good performers and not uncomfortable.

I think things changed after the third rail was extended to Hunts Cross, with at least some stoppers running through to there from Manchester.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I occasionally used the local stopping services at the Manchester end of the CLC line in the mid 1980's. These tended to be fairly short (2 or 3 car?) DMUs normally originating from Warrington Central (and/or occasionally Irlam?) rather than further afield and calling at all the intermediate stations such as Flixton, Chassen Road, Urmston, Humphrey Park (after this station had opened in 1984), Trafford Park and Deansgate, before terminating in the single bay platform (5?) at Manchester Oxford Road. Can't remember the service frequency of the stoppers, perhaps someone with access to timetables from the period might be able to clarify.



(Online photo of DMU train at Urmston station taken circa October 1988 - Source Wikipedia Commons).

 

[Magdalia]

Nothing worked beyond Manchester until about the mid 1980s when 156's appeared, working through to Norwich! These were later replaced by class 31s (though occasionally other classes) on four or occasionally five coaches.

You have that the wrong way round. The loco hauled service, mainly class 31s, ran from May 1986 to May 1988. Most trains were to and from Hull via Doncaster but there were a few trains to Cleethorpes and one to Yarmouth. The hourly Norwich service with class 156s started in May 1988.

 

[Taunton]

I can, alas, remember back to the mid-1960s, when we moved from Somerset to the Wirral, and would emerge from the electric service into Liverpool Central station when it was still the CLC terminus. The daytime service, as I described, had long changed to fully dmu, which included an hourly local service to the Gateacre branch as well, but the extra peak services were still steam, from Speke Junction shed at the Liverpool end, and half the platforms were taken up most of the time by LMS non-corridor stock, probably one of the last uses for these, standing between duties. Presumably spare dmus, of which there seemed a sudden rush starting at this time, finally displaced these.

 

[BeijingDave]

Thanks for the replies.

 

[daodao]

I recall travelling from Manchester Central to Warrington Central in the late 1960s on a non-stop dmu; the fast service was hourly then but at the Liverpool end had already been diverted to Lime Street (instead of Central High Level). Manchester Central station did not close until May 1969, when the remaining CLC line services (to Chester and Warrington/Liverpool) were diverted to Oxford Road. At that time, all the Manchester south side suburban electric services terminated at Oxford Road due to the different electrification systems in use.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At that time, all the Manchester south side suburban electric services terminated at Oxford Road due to the different electrification systems in use.

That was only until early May 1971, I believe, the conversion from 1500v DC to 25000v AC taking place over a single weekend.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I recall travelling from Manchester Central to Warrington Central in the late 1960s on a non-stop dmu; the fast service was hourly then but at the Liverpool end had already been diverted to Lime Street (instead of Central High Level). Manchester Central station did not close until May 1969, when the remaining CLC line services (to Chester and Warrington/Liverpool) were diverted to Oxford Road. At that time, all the Manchester south side suburban electric services terminated at Oxford Road due to the different electrification systems in use.

The CLC route also had portions of trains being worked from Liverpool Central beyond Manchester Centrl to Midland (via Chinley) and GC (via the Fallowfield loop and Woodhead) destinations, including to St Pancras and Marylebone.
These all finished with the 1966 electrification of the WCML and the subsequent closure of Liv/Man Central, but the Harwich boat train continued for a while via Piccadilly until cut back to Manchester.
I recall the Cheshire Lines service (pre-DMU) was considered to be much more punctual than the L&NW or L&Y options between Liverpool and Manchester, largely because it was self-contained between the two termini.
That ended when the termini were closed and through trains to distant parts became the norm.
The clumsy route into Lime St from Hunts Cross is still a big time-waster.

 

[BeijingDave]

The clumsy route into Lime St from Hunts Cross is still a big time-waster.

In the following years, the section west of Hunts Cross and east of Hunts Cross didn't link up either (until the opening of South Parkway).

For example, had a few mates studying at Liverpool, who lived in Mossley Hill. But it was impossible to get from Warrington to Mossley Hill without going to Lime Street and doubling back. Even a change at Hunts Cross wouldn't work.

 

[pemma]

Did the services marked "to Hull" operate via Sheffield or was there a 3 hourly service to Hull via Leeds and 2 trains every 3 hours to Sheffield?

 

[jfollows]

Did the services marked "to Hull" operate via Sheffield or was there a 3 hourly service to Hull via Leeds and 2 trains every 3 hours to Sheffield?

Do you mean "in the CLC 1986.pdf" file I posted earlier?
If so, then the services operated via Stockport and Sheffield.
Liverpool departures at 09:45, 14:45, 15:45, 17:45 & 18:45
Leeds services used Manchester Victoria and I don't have a working timetable for that route for that year.

 

[BeijingDave]

Did the services marked "to Hull" operate via Sheffield or was there a 3 hourly service to Hull via Leeds and 2 trains every 3 hours to Sheffield?

As far as I recall in the 80s there was a transpennine route that operated from Liverpool to Hull over Chat Moss and Leeds too, but that obviously omitted Warrington.