When does a ticket become "used" under NRCoT Part F: 29.1?

[Adam Williams]

Scenario:

1. Original ticket purchased as E-Ticket, and used to enter compulsory ticket area (scanned at gateline) to gain access to platform
2. New ticket purchased on platform prior to departure of service, also as an E-Ticket
3. Old ticket is not used for any travel whatsoever - eTVD scan history corroborates this fact and shows that only the new ticket was used to exit at the destination station. No ticket check takes place on board.

The ticket type is a Super Off-Peak Single (OPS) from Marylebone to Leamington for £34.30.

Questions:

• Should a retailer agree to refund the customer under these circumstances?
• Assuming an industry-standard admin fee of £10, how much money is the customer owed? Are they due a refund based on the entire portion of their £34.30 ticket, or should the ticket be considered "part-used" by virtue of being used to access the platform?

If ToD fulfilment had been chosen, I genuinely think this wouldn't have even cropped up as a problem.

 

[cactustwirly]

Scenario:

1. Original ticket purchased as E-Ticket, and used to enter compulsory ticket area (scanned at gateline) to gain access to platform
2. New ticket purchased on platform prior to departure of service, also as an E-Ticket
3. Old ticket is not used for any travel whatsoever - eTVD scan history corroborates this fact and shows that only the new ticket was used to exit at the destination station. No ticket check takes place on board.

The ticket type is a Super Off-Peak Single (OPS) from Marylebone to Leamington for £34.30.

Questions:

• Should a retailer agree to refund the customer under these circumstances?
• Assuming an industry-standard admin fee of £10, how much money is the customer owed? Are they due a refund based on the entire portion of their £34.30 ticket, or should the ticket be considered "part-used" by virtue of being used to access the platform?

Why would you buy a new ticket?

 

[Adam Williams]

Why would you buy a new ticket?

I forgot to apply my Railcard

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't know if that is a hypothetical situation but I would be very wary of claiming anything as it looks like fraud. Scan valid ticket to get through gate, buy (a probably invalid cheaper) ticket once through the gate and get a refund on the valid one.

 

[Adam Williams]

I don't know if that is a hypothetical situation but I would be very wary of claiming anything as it looks like fraud. Scan valid ticket to get through gate, buy (a probably invalid cheaper) ticket once through the gate and get a refund on the valid one.

It's not hypothetical.

Not particularly interested as to what it looks like - there are passengers who do commit fare evasion but I don't see why that should limit my rights under the NRCoT as a genuine passenger. My railcard is valid and in date and I held a valid ticket whilst I was stood in the CTA.

 

[Haywain]

Scenario:

1. Original ticket purchased as E-Ticket, and used to enter compulsory ticket area (scanned at gateline) to gain access to platform
2. New ticket purchased on platform prior to departure of service, also as an E-Ticket
3. Old ticket is not used for any travel whatsoever - eTVD scan history corroborates this fact and shows that only the new ticket was used to exit at the destination station. No ticket check takes place on board.

The ticket type is a Super Off-Peak Single (OPS) from Marylebone to Leamington for £34.30.

Questions:

• Should a retailer agree to refund the customer under these circumstances?
• Assuming an industry-standard admin fee of £10, how much money is the customer owed? Are they due a refund based on the entire portion of their £34.30 ticket, or should the ticket be considered "part-used" by virtue of being used to access the platform?

If ToD fulfilment had been chosen, I genuinely think this wouldn't have even cropped up as a problem.

The ticket has not been used for travel therefore a full refund is due, subject to the admin fee. Mind you, once it’s been used at a barrier I’d be looking to confirm the reason for refund before authorising it.

 

[Adam Williams]

The ticket has not been used for travel therefore a full refund is due, subject to the admin fee

Ta, appreciate the confirmation I'm not completely misunderstanding all of this

Mind you, once it’s been used at a barrier I’d be looking to confirm the reason for refund before authorising it.

I think that's an entirely reasonable attitude, and I'd definitely want to properly understand the situation/have it fully explained by the customer before refunding anything. TTL didn't seem the slightest bit interested in what I had to say though!

 

[Haywain]

TTL didn't seem the slightest bit interested in what I had to say though!

In a good or bad way?

 

[Adam Williams]

In a good or bad way?

Bad - refused to refund, "ticket is used as soon as it's scanned". Refused to let me raise a complaint, weren't interested in anything I had to say on the matter.

 

[Haywain]

Bad - refused to refund, "ticket is used as soon as it's scanned". Refused to let me raise a complaint, weren't interested in anything I had to say on the matter.

That’s poor. From what you say your scan in and then purchase of a new ticket should be sufficiently clear, even if it doesn’t give absolute proof that ticket 1 had not been used.

 

[Dai Corner]

How would the retailer satisfy themselves that the first ticket purchased wasn't used for travel by somebody else?

 

[Haywain]

How would the retailer satisfy themselves that the first ticket purchased wasn't used for travel by somebody else?

By accepting that their customer is being honest unless they have contrary evidence.

 

[Adam Williams]

How would the retailer satisfy themselves that the first ticket purchased wasn't used for travel by somebody else?

As Haywain says, on the balance of probabilities, I suppose.

Leam gateline was shut (and tends to be shut until late, IME), so anyone else travelling that evening would've had to have scanned out if they were going to use the ticket in full. Anyone using it would have had to have also been inside MYB already, unless they intended to start short. The story added up, the ticket had been purchased in a rush and a replacement was purchased almost immediately afterwards.

If it was ToD, there would have been no markings on the paper ticket and the refund would have been issued with no questions asked.

 

[30907]

If it was ToD, there would have been no markings on the paper ticket and the refund would have been issued with no questions asked.

Are you saying that a paper ticket that has been through an entrance barrier can then be refunded without question?
This seems to be an enormous loophole.

I am not sure TTL's argument (not sure who that is - Trainline?) holds water - you could have abandoned your journey immediately after passing the barrier.
That said, on a route where there seems to be a great deal of fraudulent travel, I can understand that your claim looks suspicious.

PS Incidentally, your potential saving by buying the new ticket and refunding the old was £1.70, which even in these straitened times....

 

[Adam Williams]

Are you saying that a paper ticket that has been through an entrance barrier can then be refunded without question?

I guess my point is that, to the best of my knowledge, there would be no record of the fact the ticket had been through the barrier for the retailer to consult, and as a legitimate-paying passenger my choice of fulfillment method made life harder for me.

The ticket obviously would not be stamped on board or retained at LMS, because it was not used for travel - the main ways a retailer would conclude a ToD ticket had been used.

PS Incidentally, your potential saving by buying the new ticket and refunding the old was £1.70, which even in these straitened times....

Indeed, though it's more the principle of it that frustrates me. I travel on the WCML quite a bit too, and the prices there are sometimes higher such that it really would make more of a significant difference if I made the same mistake there.

£1.70 will more than cover the cost of me getting home from Leam, though!

 

[1955LR]

Slight different scenario . Last year I purchased a ticket to travel from Hereford to Okehampton , Day Return E Ticket purchased through Trainsplit . I arrived at Hereford & train shown as on time so scanned through the barrier, but by the time I had gone over the footbridge, it was showing as cancelled . This meant I hadn't time to complete the journey so I aborted & claimed refund from Trainsplit . I wondered if it would be refused as there was no evidence having scanned at the gate line , that I hadn't travelled. Full refund with no problems. ps, gateline staff let me out without scanning when I explained the problem

 

[Watershed]

The mere fact that a ticket has been scanned at the origin station's barrier doesn't definitively mean it is "used". It is only used once you actually travel somewhere.

Even if Trainline claimed otherwise, you still have the right to a partial refund on a part-used ticket. This is calculated by deducting the admin fee, plus the fare for the journey actually undertaken... which of course would be nothing.

Trainline are in the wrong here; how you proceed is up to you, but you could try a partial chargeback with the card you used to pay, or if that doesn't work, send a Letter Before Claim with a view to hopefully convincing them into paying up (or ultimately taking them to Court if they still don't pay).

 

[Adam Williams]

Trainline are in the wrong here; how you proceed is up to you, but you could try a partial chargeback with the card you used to pay

I've disputed via PayPal for now, they can explain their interpretation of condition 29 to me if they want to defend the dispute..

When asked to upload supporting documentation, I provided them with a copy of the NRCoT

 

[Haywain]

As an aside, it’s a strange business that doesn’t allow a customer to raise a complaint.

 

[Adam Williams]

Yeah.. It was just a flat refusal that a complaint couldn't be raised "because the ticket had been scanned" and that was that, in their mind. I might ask for the chat transcript

 

[Starmill]

I agree with @Haywain in that if the ticket has been scanned, an explanation as to why it was scanned but not used generally ought to be requested if not explained by the customer at first contact.

Of course, if the customer has bought a replacement ticket, they'll have evidence to present with the refund claim in the form of the new ticket itself. This by itself should be sufficient to answer the query.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I guess my point is that, to the best of my knowledge, there would be no record of the fact the ticket had been through the barrier for the retailer to consult, and as a legitimate-paying passenger my choice of fulfillment method made life harder for me.

The ticket obviously would not be stamped on board or retained at LMS, because it was not used for travel - the main ways a retailer would conclude a ToD ticket had been used.




Indeed, though it's more the principle of it that frustrates me. I travel on the WCML quite a bit too, and the prices there are sometimes higher such that it really would make more of a significant difference if I made the same mistake there.

£1.70 will more than cover the cost of me getting home from Leam, though!

I'm Sorry you're incorrect, when a CCST goes through a barrier the encoding is changed slightly and it's possible to tell that it's been used(or not)

 

[Adam Williams]

I'm Sorry you're incorrect, when a CCST goes through a barrier the encoding is changed slightly and it's possible to tell that it's been used(or not)

How many retailers actually ask for the physical tickets back nowadays though?

I thought that mostly disappeared when the pandemic hit.

 

[Wallsendmag]

How many retailers actually ask for the physical tickets back nowadays though?

I honestly don't know but we should be back to normal now.

 

[Sm5]

I had similar 1 year ago..


I bought a Liverpool St - Norwich ticket.
1+ 1 child off peak day return (saturday) with Friend / Family railcard.

During the purchase process the machine flagged up a promo, £1 for children did I want to chose it, so I said “Yes” purchased that ticket.

Went through the barriers and boarded.

However I became suspicious it seemed too good to be true.. check t&cs on my phone which said offer only valid for 2nd child onwards….

Somewhat alarmed I deboarded at Stratford, exited the barriers and bought new regular f&f returns from Stratford to Norwich and took the next train.

Now we were covered, both me and child had zone 1-6 paper travelcards which covered the Liverpool St to Stratford journey and the exit at Stratford without issue.

rightly or wrongly we used the zone 1-6 card to re- enter stratford station, and on return it wasnt needed as we went to the Jubilee line, so the Stratford-Norwich ticket was totally unmarked.. however we went the honest route on the refund… and asked for that original liverpool st ticket to be refunded.

However GA were having non of it when it came to refunds.. flat refusal, to recognise the machines selling a ticket that was outside the t&c of the offer or to refund a ticket used to enter the barrier… despite showing them all our tickets…(6 of them 2 outward, 2 returns and 2 travelcards !) they just rejected it end of discussion saying once the ticket was used it cannot be refunded… so a £40 odd return turned into a £90 day return.. They didnt return the tickets either in the letter.

What made it worse was no one checked our tickets all day, Norwich’s barriers were open…so no need to show any ticket either direction.

 

[Adam Williams]

we should be back to normal now.

I suspect that's probably not universally the case (and honestly, I'm of the opinion that the current status quo is probably better for retailers/TOCs and passengers - nobody wants to be handling physically posted paper tickets as part of their refunds flow, and the customers don't want the hassle either).

Taking LNER's outsourced refunds form as an example, it still lets me upload images of my printed ToD tickets - as long as I cut them up.

 

[Kilopylae]

As an aside, it’s a strange business that doesn’t allow a customer to raise a complaint.

I read an article (blog post?) some time ago on LinkedIn which discussed Trainline's customer service – or lack thereof.

Why is the Trainline customer service experience so at odds with what their leadership say?

Check out the leader of Trainline and you’ll come across a Clare Gilmartin. The embodiment of the modern corporate leader with an impressive corporate background that includes Unilever, BCG Consulting and eBay.

www.linkedin.com

 

[Wolfie]

I had similar 2 years ago..


I bought a Liverpool St - Norwich ticket.
1+ 1 child off peak day return (saturday) with Friend / Family railcard.

During the purchase process the machine flagged up a promo, £1 for children did I want to chose it, so I said “Yes” purchased that ticket.

Went through the barriers and boarded.

However I became suspicious it seemed too good to be true.. check t&cs on my phone which said offer only valid for 2nd child onwards….

Somewhat alarmed I deboarded at Stratford, exited the barriers and bought new regular f&f returns from Stratford to Norwich and took the next train.

Now we were covered, both me and child had zone 1-6 paper travelcards which covered the Liverpool St to Stratford journey and the exit at Stratford without issue.

rightly or wrongly we used the zone 1-6 card to re- enter stratford station, and on return it wasnt needed as we went to the Jubilee line, so the Stratford-Norwich ticket was totally unmarked.. however we went the honest route on the refund… and asked for that original liverpool st ticket to be refunded.

However GA were having non of it when it came to refunds.. flat refusal, to recognise the machines selling a ticket that was outside the t&c of the offer or to refund a ticket used to enter the barrier… despite showing them all our tickets… they just rejected it end of discussion saying once the ticket was used it cannot be refunded… so a £40 odd return turned into a £90 day return.

What made it worse was no one checked our tickets all day, Norwich’s barriers were open…so no need to show any ticket either direction.

I would have been off to County Court via MCOL on that one.

 

[Sm5]

I would have been off to County Court via MCOL on that one.

Its a bit hard without the tickets to prove it… when I wrote off, they didnt send them back, only the letter.

All I had was a collection of photos of DRS37’s at Norwich to prove I was there, and of course credit card receipts to show I bought the tickets.

Felt a bit powerless on that. (i know I should have kept a copy), but this wasn't a path I knew and it wasnt delay repay. We were given the form at Stratford ticket office at the time as we tried to explain it when we bought the 2nd set of returns.

c’est la view, but to the OPs scenario… ours was pretty much what he described, and the TOC very much took a view that scanning them at the barrier marks them as used, and took no further circumstances into account.

 

[Adam Williams]

Trainline have doubled down in their response to my PayPal dispute:

Dear Adam,

We hope you and your family are well and are in good health. We understand you want to claim refund on the ticket. I can see you have purchased Super Off-Peak Single Ticket to travel. It is refundable ticket less admin fees charged up to £10.00. If completely unused. A scanned ticket is as good as used ticket. Please accept my sincere apology. As we unable to honor your refund request. I understand it is not expected resolution; however, I am sure you will acknowledge that we have to abide the rules and policies set by Rail Industry.

Thank you for contacting us.
Kind regards,
Ratan