When Guards started to become Conductors

[Killingworth]

The current difficulties on Northern remind me of the days when the first generation DMUs ran between small staffed stations on branch lines, many of which were abandoned about 50 years ago. I well recall sitting at the front behind the driver on a trip from Newcastle to Carlisle in about 1957/8 (spotted 10,000 and 10,001 that day), then down the coast on a second almost new unit to pick up a third to take us via Keswick to Penrith. From there via Kirby Stephen to Darlington was locomotive hauled and memory says we may not have had a corridor on at least part of that train.

The guard had his van into which cycles, prams, parcels, large suitcases and anything bulky could easily be stored. Prams, cycles and dogs needed a ticket to travel. The savings from DMUs alone weren't enough to save many lines, so stations were also de-manned. The one I currently use was almost shut to passenger traffic in the late 1960s but in 1969 the PayTrain arrived.

It was then that the guard became the conductor. Passengers continued to open and close doors for themselves, lowering the window to operate an external handle, a habit that was slow to die.

The arrival of then modern Pacers and Sprinters about 30 years ago brought in central locking. The reason why this wasn't made to be a driver operated function at the outset is something we should pass over, but probably a combination of low confidence in the technology then available and inevitable union resistance. Maybe a battle should have been fought then, but it wasn't.

When the guard started issuing tickets the charges for prams, cycles and dogs went - and probably platform tickets at most stations about that time?

My memories of that time are of a more relaxed railway where I expected to get a choice of seat. But then from 1965 I could no longer travel from York to Market Weighton by train and the seemingly reliable electrics from South Gosforth to Whitley Bay were replaced in 1967 by noisier, smellier and less frequent DMUs. Then I got a car.

Today I've rediscovered railway travel - as long as I avoid travelling on Saturdays!







1969 had faded in memory, when along came 1985 and the Pacers. A small crowd gathered to see our newly truncated station, and truncated trains!

 

[yorkie]

An interesting read, thanks for posting.

Today's train companies are keen to take that convenience away (Grand Central and Hull Trains excepted, of course!).

1969 had faded in memory, when along came 1985 and the Pacers. A small crowd gathered to see our newly truncated station, and truncated trains!

Dore, in case anyone is wondering. And the building is now an Indian restaurant. We had a forum meal there a couple of years ago (and probably will do again some day).

 

[Calthrop]

Going off at something of a tangent from the thread's title -- "and / or" citing a similar nomenclature matter, from forty-odd years before the OP's recounted experiences. A brief reference in the autobiography of Olave Baden-Powell (1889 -- 1977), wife of Robert Baden-Powell, founder of the Scouting movement; and, herself, founder of the Girl Guides -- though the whole Scouting thing pretty much leaves me cold, I found the book fascinating for its historical-period aspects. Around the time of World War I, the Baden-Powells lived near Bodiam, and made much use of the Kent & East Sussex Light Railway -- referred to by the author as "the private railway", as opposed to the big South-Eastern & Chatham. She tells of the employee travelling with and in charge of K & ESR passenger trains making his way, as a matter of course, along the outside footboards of the coaches, and looking into the compartment windows from outside, to check passengers' tickets; and describes her consternation on experiencing this for the first time. Olave refers to this chap as the "conductor": giving me occasion to wonder whether she -- presumably no expert on railway terminology -- is just using a word which to her, seems appropriate; or whether Colonel Stephens (doing his own thing, as was his wont) called his passenger guards "conductors" as standard practice, even on steam trains and before his lines' railmotor days.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

One of the problems with Paytrains was the inability to buy a ticket beyond the local range of the guard's ticket machine. You'd often have to rebook for longer or awkward journeys though back in the days of a relatively uniformed fare structure you didn't lose out much apart from having to queue to buy another ticket.

 

[Killingworth]

One of the problems with Paytrains was the inability to buy a ticket beyond the local range of the guard's ticket machine. You'd often have to rebook for longer or awkward journeys though back in the days of a relatively uniformed fare structure you didn't lose out much apart from having to queue to buy another ticket.

The leaflet actually says that a ticket for onward travel will need to be bought at the next station when changing trains. I bet that went down well when the paytrain was running late. Having to dash from 2c to the booking office in Sheffield, queue to buy, then maybe dash back to distant 6 must have been another reason not to use trains.

 

[davetheguard]

One of the problems with Paytrains was the inability to buy a ticket beyond the local range of the guard's ticket machine. You'd often have to rebook for longer or awkward journeys though back in the days of a relatively uniformed fare structure you didn't lose out much apart from having to queue to buy another ticket.

I wonder if the inability to buy a through ticket to beyond the Paytrain's destination was just an Eastern Region thing?

At Reading on the Western in the late 70's and through the 80's, we operated several Paytrain routes: Twyford to Henley; Reading to Bedwyn; Reading to Tonbridge, and later after the depot at Slough closed, Reading to Marlow. On all of these, you could buy through tickets to London and most other stations. I once more than doubled my takings one quiet Sunday on the Henley branch by issuing a Henley to Edinburgh via London ticket on an excess pad. When the (S)PORTIS ticket machines came in, the first ticket I ever issued on one was, bizarrely and memorably, a Bedwyn to Lancaster Super Saver Return.

 

[Killingworth]

At Reading on the Western in the late 70's and through the 80's, we operated several Paytrain routes: Twyford to Henley; Reading to Bedwyn; Reading to Tonbridge, and later after the depot at Slough closed, Reading to Marlow. On all of these, you could buy through tickets to London and most other stations. I once more than doubled my takings one quiet Sunday on the Henley branch by issuing a Henley to Edinburgh via London ticket on an excess pad. When the (S)PORTIS ticket machines came in, the first ticket I ever issued on one was, bizarrely and memorably, a Bedwyn to Lancaster Super Saver Return.

Taking a diversion prompted by this comment, I recall in my early career we received rail travel warrants exchangeable for tickets at the booking office. In 1966 I thought I'd see how my local station could issue a long distance ticket when most would have been between two stations on the North Tyneside loop. I think it was probably a handwritten ticket I received from West Jesmond to Haslemere. I hoped it would help the statistics in some way!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The leaflet actually says that a ticket for onward travel will need to be bought at the next station when changing trains. I bet that went down well when the paytrain was running late. Having to dash from 2c to the booking office in Sheffield, queue to buy, then maybe dash back to distant 6 must have been another reason not to use trains.

Actually it wasn't just restricted to the Paytrains themselves - many of the smaller staffed stations used the same type of ticket machine as the Conductor/Guard and required re-booking at a larger station enroute.

 

[Springs Branch]

My first encounter with train guards morphing into conductors was in the early to mid-1970s – not on a rural branch line but on the ex-L&Y lines from Manchester Victoria towards Wigan.

At that time, timetables on these routes were not regular-interval patterns, and on weekdays the stations on the Atherton line had no stopping trains at all between the morning and evening peaks (the occasional Southport express did go via Atherton non-stop).

Despite this, the ticket offices at places like Daisy Hill, Atherton and Walkden were staffed, not selling tickets for trains which didn’t stop. A classic example of the over-manning and inefficiency which British Rail was accused of at the time, but handy enough when needing to pop in to buy one’s LMR Timetable Book each year in early May (price 15p).

Although there were no midday stopping trains, perversely there was quite a usable service on the Atherton line in the evenings – a handy travel option for summer evening “refreshments” among the bright lights of 1970s Bolton, Salford or Manchester. I regularly caught evening trains from Daisy Hill into Manchester, or from Hindley or Ince into Bolton.

Of course, by the time evening trains began to stop, the booking offices had closed for the night, so you boarded without a ticket. Around 50% of the time, the guard might come and seek you out (otherwise it was pay at the barrier at Manchester Victoria or Bolton). What I do remember was:-

- These guards didn’t have machines. All tickets were written out by hand on carbon-paper Excess Fare pads.

- They didn’t carry cash bags, but always seemed to have a jacket pocket full of assorted coins and could always give you change without any fuss or complaint.

- The guards always seemed to know the correct fares without having to consult a fare table. You might expect this for a bus conductor who cranked out tickets by the hundred each day, or a Paytrain guard working the same route most of the time, but I suspect selling tickets was a minor part of these guards’ duties and they would cover quite a lot of different routes out of Manchester Victoria. I was impressed everyone seemed to carry the price of a Cheap Day Return between Hindley and Bolton in their head.

- Very few or zero other passengers seemed to join my trains at subsequent stations, so the guard didn’t need to spend too much time running up and down the 3-car BRC&W unit with their Excess pad, nor was there much risk of his biro running out of ink.

 

[AY1975]

One of the problems with Paytrains was the inability to buy a ticket beyond the local range of the guard's ticket machine. You'd often have to rebook for longer or awkward journeys.

Yes, until BR introduced the PORTIS/SPORTIS portable ticket issuing machines in about the mid to late 1980s, which were still used by train conductors until about the mid-2000s when they were replaced by systems such as AVANTIX (which themselves are now being superseded.

PORTIS/SPORTIS machines only had a limited memory so the conductor had to look up your fare in the National Fares Manual if you were going anywhere other than the most popular destinations on that route, though.