When were mirrors and CCTV monitors (dispatch) introduced?

[Raybatesman]

Hey all, I'm working on a project for my course to do with dispatch. I was wondering if anyone knows when mirrors and CCTV monitors were first introduced to the railway as a method of dispatch please?

 

[Roger1973]

As with most questions, it depends quite what you mean - do you mean on what's now the National Rail network, or what?

Broadly, mid 1980s when driver only operation started, I expect others may know exact dates / places / lines.

It's possible that some stations had CCTV to assist guards on a curved platform (I seem to remember one or two London Underground stations with that in the 1980s when Underground trains had guards - possibly Embankment on the northbound northern line?) - not sure anything similar would have existed on what was then the BR network, as on many lines, the length of train and position of the guard would vary, while on the Underground, train length and guard position was (broadly) standard on each line.

It's possible that the Victoria Line had CCTV from its early days (it opened from 1968 with automatic train operation and had an 'automatic train operator' in the front cab and no guard) - I don't know the line well enough to be sure. And the Glasgow Underground went driver-only in the 1970s, I don't know if it had CCTV or mirrors or any combination of them at any stations.

 

[edwin_m]

On the national network the Bedford to St Pancras electrification around 1980 with the Class 317 units was the first to introduce driver-only operation and hence the first with mirrors or CCTV at stations along the route (the larger ones were probably still dispatched by platform staff). The units were parked in sidings for many months awaiting an agreement with the unions.

Around the same time the Tyne and Wear Metro opened with CCTV or mirrors at every station.

 

[adam_haddad40]

The Tyne and Wear Metro has been DOO using mirrors since day 1 - 11 August 1980

 

[62484GlenLyon]

On the national network the Bedford to St Pancras electrification around 1980 with the Class 317 units was the first to introduce driver-only operation and hence the first with mirrors or CCTV at stations along the route (the larger ones were probably still dispatched by platform staff). The units were parked in sidings for many months awaiting an agreement with the unions.

Around the same time the Tyne and Wear Metro opened with CCTV or mirrors at every station.

The 317s started working in the spring of 1983 following a resolution of the long running stand-off between BR and the unions.

 

[Ken H]

As with most questions, it depends quite what you mean - do you mean on what's now the National Rail network, or what?

Broadly, mid 1980s when driver only operation started, I expect others may know exact dates / places / lines.

It's possible that some stations had CCTV to assist guards on a curved platform (I seem to remember one or two London Underground stations with that in the 1980s when Underground trains had guards - possibly Embankment on the northbound northern line?) - not sure anything similar would have existed on what was then the BR network, as on many lines, the length of train and position of the guard would vary, while on the Underground, train length and guard position was (broadly) standard on each line.

It's possible that the Victoria Line had CCTV from its early days (it opened from 1968 with automatic train operation and had an 'automatic train operator' in the front cab and no guard) - I don't know the line well enough to be sure. And the Glasgow Underground went driver-only in the 1970s, I don't know if it had CCTV or mirrors or any combination of them at any stations.

Vic line had CCTV from new. The monitors were on the platforms, not on the trains. The operator was supposed to look at the CCTV and look back down the train before pressing the door close buttons. Think the images were black and white only.
Dunno of other LT stations had CCTV earlier. The testbed on the Hainult loop must have had them. And I think they equipped a district line train and the track between 2 stations in W London as an early prototype so must have had CCTV???

 

[Trackman]

It's possible that the Victoria Line had CCTV from its early days (it opened from 1968 with automatic train operation and had an 'automatic train operator' in the front cab and no guard) - I don't know the line well enough to be sure.

I think you could be right. I need to do some digging about. I'm sure they were there in the mid 70s.

 

[Roger1973]

Vic line had CCTV from new. The monitors were on the platforms, not on the trains. The operator was supposed to look at the CCTV and look back down the train before pressing the door close buttons. Think the images were black and white only.

I think you could be right. I need to do some digging about. I'm sure they were there in the mid 70s.

I think the monitors (for guards' use) I remember seeing somewhere on the Underground were black and white, but don't have many early memories of travelling on the Victoria Line (it didn't really go anywhere that would have fitted round journeys I would have made with parents.)

I've tried a few search terms on the LT Museum website, and there's a few photos of Kings Cross / St Pancras from December 1968 around when that section of line opened, and this one shows the monitor as part of the platform design.

The testbed on the Hainult loop must have had them. And I think they equipped a district line train and the track between 2 stations in W London as an early prototype so must have had CCTV???

Not sure - didn't the Hainault loop only involve 4 car trains? So it may not have.

LT Museum collection search on 'automatic train operation' brings up a few photos of an adapted R-stock train in the South Ealing area [ETA - in 1962] (I hadn't known about that) but this search, and a search on Hainault, doesn't give any clues about CCTV at stations.

 

[L401CJF]

Birkenhead Hamilton Square station had them on the Liverpool bound platform (1) for guards use due to curvature. Not sure when they were fitted but there were 2 boxy screens, 1 for 3 car length and 1 for 6 car length. Replaced now with modern ones.

Not sure when they were fitted but were definitely there in the 90s.

I have a photo with the old monitor visible, but it won't attach on my phone so will try later on PC.

 

[Taunton]

LT Museum collection search on 'automatic train operation' brings up a few photos of an adapted R-stock train in the South Ealing area (I hadn't known about that) but this search, and a search on Hainault, doesn't give any clues about CCTV at stations.

I believe this was on the eastbound test track on the 4-track section of the Piccadilly between Northfields, South Ealing and Acton Town, as used for many other trials, but the trains were not in public service, so no need.