Which trains/railcars to target that may soon be withdrawn?

[railfan99]

I will be visiting UK in September 2023 and have broadly completed an itinerary with hotels booked, as coming from a distant land it's not 1993, so one can't just turn up at most stations and expect to find a reasonably priced hotel with vacancies.

However plans can often be slightly tweaked.

Apart from the loco-hauled Chester-Holyhead TfW trains that I've decided not to travel on as I've done the line years ago and didn't find it overly interesting, are there any trains/railcar classes that one ought consider targeting?

Rollingstock that may be withdrawn within the next couple of years is a possible target. Is GWR's 'Castle Class' (not the steam locos of the same name) a small example?

What about those loco-hauled trains operating between London and the north?

For each such class, on what routes do they typically operate?

 

[Gaelan]

Rollingstock that may be withdrawn within the next couple of years is a possible target. Is GWR's 'Castle Class' (not the steam locos of the same name) a small example?

The HSTs can be found in a few places - GWR (who calls them the "castle class") and CrossCountry are both planning on getting rid of them quite soon (possibly before you arrive, though others will know better than I do), while ScotRail (who calls them "Inter7City") has recently refurbished them and isn't planning on getting rid of them anytime particularly soon, to my knowledge. Incidentally, they can also be found in Australia, as the New South Wales "XPT", which Wikipedia says extends into Victoria as well.

If you do find yourself in Scotland, the ScotRail HSTs are found on the longer-distance intercity routes - anything from Edinburgh or Glasgow to Aberdeen or Inverness is likely to be an HST.

 

[12LDA28C]

Chiltern's 68/Mk3 stock is currently scheduled to come out of service in May 2024 although this may change. Of course the 68s will go back to DRS but the Chiltern Mark 3s may well not see any further use after the end of LHCS on the Chilterns.

 

[bramling]

I will be visiting UK in September 2023 and have broadly completed an itinerary with hotels booked, as coming from a distant land it's not 1993, so one can't just turn up at most stations and expect to find a reasonably priced hotel with vacancies.

However plans can often be slightly tweaked.

Apart from the loco-hauled Chester-Holyhead TfW trains that I've decided not to travel on as I've done the line years ago and didn't find it overly interesting, are there any trains/railcar classes that one ought consider targeting?

Rollingstock that may be withdrawn within the next couple of years is a possible target. Is GWR's 'Castle Class' (not the steam locos of the same name) a small example?

What about those loco-hauled trains operating between London and the north?

For each such class, on what routes do they typically operate?

Tyne & Wear Metro, Glasgow Subway, and Merseyrail 507/508 are now on the way out.

Tyne & Wear isn’t going anywhere just yet, but the existing fleet is now starting to be run down, with the first of the new fleet having been delivered. It is likely cars from the old fleet will start being scrapped fairly soon.

 

[50002Superb]

I’m guessing the 91s can’t have long left?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I will be visiting UK in September 2023 and have broadly completed an itinerary with hotels booked, as coming from a distant land it's not 1993, so one can't just turn up at most stations and expect to find a reasonably priced hotel with vacancies.

However plans can often be slightly tweaked.

Apart from the loco-hauled Chester-Holyhead TfW trains that I've decided not to travel on as I've done the line years ago and didn't find it overly interesting, are there any trains/railcar classes that one ought consider targeting?

Rollingstock that may be withdrawn within the next couple of years is a possible target. Is GWR's 'Castle Class' (not the steam locos of the same name) a small example?

What about those loco-hauled trains operating between London and the north?

For each such class, on what routes do they typically operate?

Class 43 - Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness and Cardiff - Taunton/Plymouth/Penzance (plus one single diagram on Edinburgh or Leeds - Plymouth which will be withdrawn in October) is scheduled to slowly be wound down, but ScotRail examples are likely to last the rest of the decade as the replacements aren’t due for a long while

Class 68 - London Marylebone to Birmingham/Stourbridge should be withdrawn by Chiltern in 2024 and the only other operator of them (TransPennine) only uses them for a skeleton service, predominantly York Scarborough, and a decision will soon be made about their future since TPE is to be nationalised

Class 91 - London Kings Cross to Leeds/Bradford FS/Skipton/York - these are very old for mainline express trains and with the current trend in budget cuts bound to be withdrawn in favour of an Azuma only fleet at LNER

Class 139 - Stourbridge shuttle, near Birmingham - probably the most unique train ever operated in the UK - not doomed yet but apparently getting knackered and allegedly talks of replacements aren’t far off

Class 318/320/334 - Glasgow suburban services (334 also operates stopping services to Edinburgh) not immediately threatened but planned to be replaced by 2027.

Class 455 - London Waterloo to Hampton Court/Dorking/Guildford/Woking/Chessington currently remains in service in a similar situation to that of the NSW V Sets over here in Australia. As soon as the much delayed new sets finally enter service, they’ll be gone.

Class 458/5 - London Waterloo to Reading/Windsor/Weybridge - in their current unique formations of 458/0 with a random Class 460 carriage shoved in there, plus the few converted entirely from 460s, will be gone as soon as the much delayed 701s enter full service. Most of the former 458/0 carriages will be retained and overhauled for mainline use.

Class 465/466 - South East London and former Kent Greater London commuter services - a tender is being drawn for the replacement of these trains, an entire subclass of which (465/2) has been stood down already, so while these have a bit longer than the others, again I don’t know how long it’d be until you return from Australia again so perhaps one to consider.

Class 507/508 - Liverpool to Southport/Hunts Cross/New Brighton/West Kirby/Chester - I believe these will be the oldest EMUs in passenger service and have already been partially replaced by 777s so don’t have long left at all. There shouldn’t be any on Kirby/Ormskirk services in September.

Class 769 - Southport to Manchester Oxford Road/Stalybridge - with the budget cuts and these being notoriously unreliable, I’d get a ride in quick if you want one as I don’t see these lasting more than five years at an absolute max. Could say the same for TfW’s 230s tbh.

Class 994 - currently ALL Tyne & Wear Metro services - are to be replaced with new stock which this month begun testing on the network

DLR B9x stock - the 90s DLR trains that work the bulk of DLR services will be replaced during 2024 with new B23 stock that have begun testing on the network

Glasgow Subway stock will also be replaced in 2024 or 2025

 

[Sm5]

Class 57 and the Penzance sleeper is a bit of a timewarp.
Not currently threatened but its hard to see how long it lasts.

 

[DanNCL]

If you're interested in trams I'd recommend trips to Croydon and Sheffield. The two original fleets on both networks are likely to be replaced by the end of the decade, with in both cases only the newer Stadler trams being retained.

I’m guessing the 91s can’t have long left?

Class 91 - London Kings Cross to Leeds/Bradford FS/Skipton/York - these are very old for mainline express trains and with the current trend in budget cuts bound to be withdrawn in favour of an Azuma only fleet at LNER

They'll be gone no later than 2027 as that's when ETCS is rolled out on the Southern ECML. They might go earlier but that's only if the DFT pull the plug on them, which they'd be mad to do but unfortunately we've seen them make equally mad fleet decisions elsewhere in recent months.
@TT-ONR-NRN mentions their age, they might be old compared to the other remaining electric fleets but they're a decade newer than the HSTs, and the same age as equivalent fleets that are still running in Europe. 40 years is generally seen as the upper age limit for electrics, 91s are still a few years off that yet.

Tyne & Wear Metro, Glasgow Subway, and Merseyrail 507/508 are now on the way out.

Tyne & Wear isn’t going anywhere just yet, but the existing fleet is now starting to be run down, with the first of the new fleet having been delivered. It is likely cars from the old fleet will start being scrapped fairly soon.

Class 994 - currently ALL Tyne & Wear Metro services - are to be replaced with new stock which this month begun testing on the network

I would second the Tyne & Wear Metro recommendation. The existing fleet is falling apart, it's quickly turning into a large scale repeat of the final days of 483s on the Island line. Once the 555s enter service the Metrocars, the ones that even make it until that point, will probably start going very quickly. A not insignificant number of them are already stopped.

Amazingly two of the four Metrocars that didn't receive the 2010-2015 refurbishment are still in service. 4040 and 4083 only work together, but run most days. Based on mileages and exam history there's a reasonable chance they might last until nearer the end of the fleet replacement process too.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

@TT-ONR-NRN mentions their age, they might be old compared to the other remaining electric fleets but they're a decade newer than the HSTs… 91s are still a few years off that yet.

Note I did say “for Mainline Express trains.” HSTs are certainly not used as Mainline Express trains anymore, not since HSS-GWR, EMR and LNER had them replaced.

 

[DanNCL]

HSTs are certainly not used as Mainline Express trains anymore

XC? I know it's only a small number and they'll be gone within the next 6 months but that's still a mainline express.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

XC? I know it's only a small number and they'll be gone within the next 6 months but that's still a mainline express.

Aside from a small stretch on the Northern ECML, they hardly thunder up and down a mainline at top speed, they’re comparatively very gently worked compared to LNER GWR Avanti HSS.

I wonder if the forum staff might consider relocating this thread to Trip Planning & Reports, in where it may be better suited.

 

[D365]

Class 994 - currently ALL Tyne & Wear Metro services - are to be replaced with new stock which this month begun testing on the network

Class 599, but that's more an engineering/ops technicality than anything else.

 

[railfan99]

Thank you all. Super informative replies that one hopes will also assist other foreigners (and even some of you locals).

I have already included a trip to Stourbridge Town as last year, two days of strikes meant I had to abandon plans to 'do' that super-short branch. It's well used I see from passenger figures, but in my country would have become a bus years ago. Great that it is not!

 

[50002Superb]

Class 43 - Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness and Cardiff - Taunton/Plymouth/Penzance (plus one single diagram on Edinburgh or Leeds - Plymouth which will be withdrawn in October) is scheduled to slowly be wound down, but ScotRail examples are likely to last the rest of the decade as the replacements aren’t due for a long while

Class 68 - London Marylebone to Birmingham/Stourbridge should be withdrawn by Chiltern in 2024 and the only other operator of them (TransPennine) only uses them for a skeleton service, predominantly York Scarborough, and a decision will soon be made about their future since TPE is to be nationalised

Class 91 - London Kings Cross to Leeds/Bradford FS/Skipton/York - these are very old for mainline express trains and with the current trend in budget cuts bound to be withdrawn in favour of an Azuma only fleet at LNER

Class 139 - Stourbridge shuttle, near Birmingham - probably the most unique train ever operated in the UK - not doomed yet but apparently getting knackered and allegedly talks of replacements aren’t far off

Class 318/320/334 - Glasgow suburban services (334 also operates stopping services to Edinburgh) not immediately threatened but planned to be replaced by 2027.

Class 455 - London Waterloo to Hampton Court/Dorking/Guildford/Woking/Chessington currently remains in service in a similar situation to that of the NSW V Sets over here in Australia. As soon as the much delayed new sets finally enter service, they’ll be gone.

Class 458/5 - London Waterloo to Reading/Windsor/Weybridge - in their current unique formations of 458/0 with a random Class 460 carriage shoved in there, plus the few converted entirely from 460s, will be gone as soon as the much delayed 701s enter full service. Most of the former 458/0 carriages will be retained and overhauled for mainline use.

Class 465/466 - South East London and former Kent Greater London commuter services - a tender is being drawn for the replacement of these trains, an entire subclass of which (465/2) has been stood down already, so while these have a bit longer than the others, again I don’t know how long it’d be until you return from Australia again so perhaps one to consider.

Class 507/508 - Liverpool to Southport/Hunts Cross/New Brighton/West Kirby/Chester - I believe these will be the oldest EMUs in passenger service and have already been partially replaced by 777s so don’t have long left at all. There shouldn’t be any on Kirby/Ormskirk services in September.

Class 769 - Southport to Manchester Oxford Road/Stalybridge - with the budget cuts and these being notoriously unreliable, I’d get a ride in quick if you want one as I don’t see these lasting more than five years at an absolute max. Could say the same for TfW’s 230s tbh.

Class 994 - currently ALL Tyne & Wear Metro services - are to be replaced with new stock which this month begun testing on the network

DLR B9x stock - the 90s DLR trains that work the bulk of DLR services will be replaced during 2024 with new B23 stock that have begun testing on the network

Glasgow Subway stock will also be replaced in 2024 or 2025

There are also the LNWR 319s

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There are also the LNWR 319s

By the time the trip rolls around, done and gone. Had their day. Boom. Vanished. Gone. Adios.

 

[D365]

By the time the trip rolls around, done and gone. Had their day. Boom. Vanished. Gone. Adios.

Given that they’re not in service yet, it will take a few months for the Class 730s to see off the LNWR 319s and [indirectly] the Northern 319s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Given that they’re not in service yet, it will take a few months for the Class 730s to see off the LNWR 319s

We’ll see where they are this time next week then.
Admittedly I did forget about the Northern ones.

 

[43096]

@TT-ONR-NRN mentions their age, they might be old compared to the other remaining electric fleets but they're a decade newer than the HSTs, and the same age as equivalent fleets that are still running in Europe. 40 years is generally seen as the upper age limit for electrics, 91s are still a few years off that yet.

It should be noted that DB’s ICE1 sets - which are of similar age to the Class 91+Mark 4 fleet - are currently going through heavy overhauls to keep them going for another decade.

 

[D365]

They'll be gone no later than 2027 as that's when ETCS is rolled out on the Southern ECML. They might go earlier but that's only if the DFT pull the plug on them, which they'd be mad to do but unfortunately we've seen them make equally mad fleet decisions elsewhere in recent months.
@TT-ONR-NRN mentions their age, they might be old compared to the other remaining electric fleets but they're a decade newer than the HSTs, and the same age as equivalent fleets that are still running in Europe. 40 years is generally seen as the upper age limit for electrics, 91s are still a few years off that yet.

It should be noted that DB’s ICE1 sets - which are of similar age to the Class 91+Mark 4 fleet - are currently going through heavy overhauls to keep them going for another decade.

The Class 91s were designed for a 30 year lifespan, hence the majority of them having now been withdrawn. And I understand LNER has a few 'spare' locomotives in the float, so would assume they're not being worked as intensively.

Agree with the rest of Dan's comments - would be mad to withdraw them now with LNER's purported boom in leisure travel.

 

[50002Superb]

By the time the trip rolls around, done and gone. Had their day. Boom. Vanished. Gone. Adios.

Ah right, I thought they were here until December

 

[D365]

Ah right, I thought they were here until December

Unless the DfT orchestrates another sweeping fleet cutback, you’ll have either the LNWR or Northern Class 319s for at least the rest of this year And the Northern Class 769s in any case.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Unless the DfT orchestrates another sweeping fleet cutback, you’ll have either the LNWR or Northern Class 319s for at least the rest of this year And the Northern Class 769s in any case.

As I said, just Northern