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Why are connections not held? (a rant)

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Oswyntail

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Mrs O was going to Lincoln today, primarily to a football match, but travelling an hour early to give her a chance to look round Lincoln itself. You guessed it - travelling via Newark, train held up by points trouble at Wakefield, arrives at Newark about 4 minutes after the hourly train to Lincoln had left. Now this latter train pootles round the house to (eventually) Peterborough, apparently making no connections en route. I am sure it has a certain amount of recovery time built in. And it is Saturday, so i presume there are not that many freight paths waiting to leap out.
So why, in a customer services industry could the local not be held until the designated intercity connecting service had arrived?
 
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wintonian

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A couple of things come to mind which you have touched on; available paths and the passengers already on the train not wanting to be late/ hanging around waiting.

I do think this is one of those areas where most of the time you can't please everyone at the same time.

However I would expect a less frequent service to held for a reasonable length of time and, certainly one that only runs (or calls at come stations) every 2 hours or less.
 

Jimini

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Mrs O was going to Lincoln today, primarily to a football match, but travelling an hour early to give her a chance to look round Lincoln itself. You guessed it - travelling via Newark, train held up by points trouble at Wakefield, arrives at Newark about 4 minutes after the hourly train to Lincoln had left. Now this latter train pootles round the house to (eventually) Peterborough, apparently making no connections en route. I am sure it has a certain amount of recovery time built in. And it is Saturday, so i presume there are not that many freight paths waiting to leap out.
So why, in a customer services industry could the local not be held until the designated intercity connecting service had arrived?

My sympathies. That connection at Newark has led to me forking out for a £30 cab to Lincoln on many an occasion. The staff aren't the most helpful either, they generally play the "that's not one of our trains / nothing we can do / talk to EMT about it" card.
 

Jatos

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Not good, was the previous train you could taken to I am assuming Newark North Gate.
 

Greenback

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A couple of things come to mind which you have touched on; available paths and the passengers already on the train not wanting to be late/ hanging around waiting.

I do think this is one of those areas where most of the time you can't please everyone at the same time.

However I would expect a less frequent service to held for a reasonable length of time and, certainly one that only runs (or calls at come stations) every 2 hours or less.

I agree. Whatever decision is made about whether to hold one train for a late running service will lead to unhappy customers.

As we have debated before, all sort sof factors will be considered before a decision is made, including the likely knock on effects to other services, the numbe rof passengers involved, the financial consequences, and the number of passengers involved.

All the decision makers can do is to try and mitigate the effects for as many as possible, while, of course, also trying to take the action that will cost them the least money.
 

wintonian

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I agree. Whatever decision is made about whether to hold one train for a late running service will lead to unhappy customers.

As we have debated before, all sort sof factors will be considered before a decision is made, including the likely knock on effects to other services, the numbe rof passengers involved, the financial consequences, and the number of passengers involved.

All the decision makers can do is to try and mitigate the effects for as many as possible, while, of course, also trying to take the action that will cost them the least money.

A somewhat rhetorical question might be; how much weight do TOC's place to the economics of such a decision and do all TOC's place a similar value to those economics?
 

HH

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I'd subscribe to two things here:

1. Possibly senior management at EMT are not aware of the issue; if there's no operational reason not to hold the train, I'm sure they'd agree that it should be held; even re-timed.

2. There's a jobsworth somewhere who could have helped out and didn't.
 

Jatos

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I think part of the problem here is to maintain punctuality figures, and EMT is very proud of their punctuality figures it seems, and I will grant it to EMT, their punctuality is good!
 

barrykas

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At the end of the day it boils down to money. Delaying a train results in whoever caused the delay paying a penalty for it. How much it costs depends on the route and time of day, so it might be something like £5 a minute for Newark - Lincoln off-peak, but £200+ a minute for the Thameslink core in the peaks. (Not actual figures AFAIK, but it gives a rough idea of the sort of scale).

Cheers,

Barry
 

Jatos

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So in short, there is financial pressure to keep punctuality figures high!
 

SS4

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So in short, there is financial pressure to keep punctuality figures high!

Pretty much. Would be interesting to see what the delay cost is compared to having to shell out compensation for delayed passengers.
 

Oswyntail

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Pretty much. Would be interesting to see what the delay cost is compared to having to shell out compensation for delayed passengers.
I presume that any delay cost could be attributed to the reason for the delay of the intercity - points near Wakefield.
Of course I have no idea of the requirements of any but one of the passengers. However, her journey to Lincoln was delayed by an hour, though I doubt that would match any official definition. Does anyone know at what point delays are assessed? Does a delayed departure incur "penalty points", or is it the lateness at some point on the journey? If the latter, I presume (from the way that recovery time works) that that would be at the end of the journey. So it is conceivable, if not likely, that a 5 minute late departure might not register in any assessment of delay cost. In which case, EMT lose nothing by a short delay in starting, and gain in PR.
 

Condor7

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I think part of the problem here is to maintain punctuality figures, and EMT is very proud of their punctuality figures it seems, and I will grant it to EMT, their punctuality is good!

I appreciate this can be a complex issue with punctuality being a high priority.
However should there be different scales of punctuality for expresses as oppossed to local services.

I am not an expert and I am sure there are many on here who will correct me, but I have always believed that certain services were fixed connections with other expresses and would have a 'holding period' built in to wait for the train they are supposed to connect with.
 

wintonian

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Pretty much. Would be interesting to see what the delay cost is compared to having to shell out compensation for delayed passengers.

As long as you account for the fact that most passengers can't be bothered to claim particularly if their journey is an inexpensive local trip or an AP.
 

maniacmartin

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By holding the train, EMT would be liable for the hit in their punctuality figures, and possibly Delay Repay for passengers on their train.

By not holding it, EMT are not liable. East Coast are, as they caused the earlier delay. Even though the amount of Delay Repay could be higher, it will be all born by East Coast and not EMT. It probably greatly delays passengers connecting, but EMT can say that their trains were on time. In reality though, on that line, they could probably get away with holding a train for a few minutes. On some other lines, it might be a different case.
 

Greenback

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A somewhat rhetorical question might be; how much weight do TOC's place to the economics of such a decision and do all TOC's place a similar value to those economics?

Indeed. A lot may depend on the TOC's priorities and position, so that (as an example) ATW may make decisions that Northern Rail would never make.

I think part of the problem here is to maintain punctuality figures, and EMT is very proud of their punctuality figures it seems, and I will grant it to EMT, their punctuality is good!

Punctuality figures, and the possible penalties for a late service, undoubtedly figure in the decision making process.

At the end of the day it boils down to money. Delaying a train results in whoever caused the delay paying a penalty for it. How much it costs depends on the route and time of day, so it might be something like £5 a minute for Newark - Lincoln off-peak, but £200+ a minute for the Thameslink core in the peaks. (Not actual figures AFAIK, but it gives a rough idea of the sort of scale).

If a TOC decides to hold a service for a connection, the TOC that makes the decision is then regarded as the cause of the delay to that service, and not the TOC whose train was delayed. So there's furthe rpressure not to wait.

Would be interesting to see what the delay cost is compared to having to shell out compensation for delayed passengers.

Sadly, such figures are normally regarded as commercially sensitive, which is a shame as transparency would help passengers understand what leads to decisions being made.

It may also lead to pressure for the current system of penalties to be overhauled!

I presume that any delay cost could be attributed to the reason for the delay of the intercity - points near Wakefield.
Of course I have no idea of the requirements of any but one of the passengers. However, her journey to Lincoln was delayed by an hour, though I doubt that would match any official definition. Does anyone know at what point delays are assessed? Does a delayed departure incur "penalty points", or is it the lateness at some point on the journey? If the latter, I presume (from the way that recovery time works) that that would be at the end of the journey. So it is conceivable, if not likely, that a 5 minute late departure might not register in any assessment of delay cost. In which case, EMT lose nothing by a short delay in starting, and gain in PR.

I think it's the latter. Locally, ATW trains are regularly held at Swansea for 5-10 mins when the incoming London is slightly late. There does seem to be some sort of cut off time when the service won't wait, and I've always thought that this would be at a point wher eit becomes unlikely that the loss in time can be recovered using timetables allowances and cutting turn around time to the bone.

One thing no TOC wants to do is cause problems for itself later in the diagram!

Another thing that causes problems here are the single line sections. Obviously, if a service cannto navigate the section before another train needs it, the risk is delaying that service or increasing the delay to the one laready held back. The potential for knock on effects is huge either way!

PR is debatable. I've been on a full train for Fishguard Harbour which has been delayed to allow a dozen people to connect. Some of the 100+ people on board have not been at all impressed by this (while some of us aren't too upset as we appreciate it could have been us on the other train!) so the overall effect might have been 12 very happy customers and 30 unhappy ones, with Greenback and 75* others neutral!

*Figures completely made up and for illustrative purposes only!
 

dk1

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PR is debatable. I've been on a full train for Fishguard Harbour which has been delayed to allow a dozen people to connect. Some of the 100+ people on board have not been at all impressed by this (while some of us aren't too upset as we appreciate it could have been us on the other train!) so the overall effect might have been 12 very happy customers and 30 unhappy ones, with Greenback and 75* others neutral!

*Figures completely made up and for illustrative purposes only!

I have been on a delayed Stena ferry into Holyhead & told on board ship that ATW will not hold the connection to Chester. Imagine mine & the approx 100 passengers who praised the TOC who in the end did hold the train for 15 minutes. This all turned sour at Chester when the Crewe connection was not then held dor us & departed at exactly the same time as we arrived :cry:
 

ANorthernGuard

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Many a Time I have been held at Sheffield waiting for the last London connection to arrive before we head back to Piccadilly, BUT from what I can gather we do not interfere with any other paths due to the time of day etc. I do sympathise with passengers when a train can't be held but its like the domino effect when one is late it can effect dso many other services throughout the day.
 

Flamingo

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The decision making process on holding connections is basically Utilitarianism at work... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism, added to the total paranoia all TOC's have about delay minutes.

As Greenback said, there is no point in pleasing the (usually) smaller number on the late-running service compared to the ones who are waiting. Add this to the simple economics that providing onward taxi's for the people delayed (or refunding their ticket cost if required) will invariably be cheaper than paying the delay minutes to services delayed, and the answer that the guard usually gets from Control is "The train won't be held".
 

Helvellyn

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Every now and then I see messages on my BlackBerry that due to a FGW Cardiff-Portsmouth service being delayed, SWT Control have agreed to hold a service at Salisbury for connections. That tells me that FGW Guard has contacted their control saying passengers need the connection; FGW have spoken to SWT; decision made to hold train.

In the OP's case, it could well be that EMT were unaware of the delay to the East Coast service, and more than likely that no request was made to EMT to hold the service.

I can also say that having once been asked to hold a train for a late running connection, a number of passengers on my train were very upset that their train was being delayed as they were getting picked up further doen the route and didn't appreciate the delay! As a few others have said, you can't please evryone.
 

theblackwatch

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Many a Time I have been held at Sheffield waiting for the last London connection to arrive before we head back to Piccadilly, BUT from what I can gather we do not interfere with any other paths due to the time of day etc. I do sympathise with passengers when a train can't be held but its like the domino effect when one is late it can effect dso many other services throughout the day.

You are right about the domino effect, myself and three other forum members witnessed this in the Czech republic earlier this year - this is a country where connections of 4 or 5 minutes are pretty much the norm. However, the domino effect caused no problems at all, as it just meant every train we travelled on was 5 minutes late or so and no problems whatsoever. Unfortunately, our network is so congested (due in part, I believe, to our obsession with running short trains at frequent intervals rather than a more sensible approach of a decent length train less often, but with improved reliability) that even a 5 minute delay of one train can cause a major problem at some point, when, for example, it then has to wait 10 minutes to get into a station later in the journey due to the platform not being available.
 
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But surely fining operators for considering customer needs is one of the benefits of privatisation?

I've had it a couple of times where my train has run late and the connection has been allowed to leave as I and other passengers run down the platform towards its closing doors. As I watch it depart and think of the extra hour I'll have to enjoy the delights of Darlington station of a late evening I was comforted by the pretty paint scheme of the departing pacer and the knowledge that I'm paying them far more in taxpayer subsidy than in the bad old days of BR.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 

krisk

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Won't happen, if in doubt set off earlier or claim compo from late running train
 

MattRobinson

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Won't happen, if in doubt set off earlier or claim compo from late running train

Most of the connections that are being discussed, however, are hourly train services. What's the point of building over an hour into a journey just for if your train is delayed. Why not build an hour into your journey every time you make a connection?
 

Greenback

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I have been on a delayed Stena ferry into Holyhead & told on board ship that ATW will not hold the connection to Chester. Imagine mine & the approx 100 passengers who praised the TOC who in the end did hold the train for 15 minutes. This all turned sour at Chester when the Crewe connection was not then held dor us & departed at exactly the same time as we arrived :cry:

Being my local operator, I travel on ATW a lot, and I normally find them very willing to hold trains wher econnections are slightly delayed. I doub tthat they would send a train out on tiem wher eit connects with a ferry unless the latter was very delayed.


You are right about the domino effect, myself and three other forum members witnessed this in the Czech republic earlier this year - this is a country where connections of 4 or 5 minutes are pretty much the norm. However, the domino effect caused no problems at all, as it just meant every train we travelled on was 5 minutes late or so and no problems whatsoever.

I assume that the Czechs don't have financial incentives to depart on time!

Unfortunately, our network is so congested (due in part, I believe, to our obsession with running short trains at frequent intervals rather than a more sensible approach of a decent length train less often, but with improved reliability) that even a 5 minute delay of one train can cause a major problem at some point, when, for example, it then has to wait 10 minutes to get into a station later in the journey due to the platform not being available.

Our network is congested, rationalisation at so many places hasn't helped at all. The installation of single elad junctions often exacerbates delay where,as in Swansea, there is only one line to access two platforms (3 & 4) so a late train may have to be held further to allow another service to depart across the single lead.
 

Kneedown

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Now this latter train pootles round the house to (eventually) Peterborough, apparently making no connections en route. I am sure it has a certain amount of recovery time built in.

There's generally no padding in the timings on the joint line as regards the intermediate stops. Only a few mintes at Peterborough, and is often spent awaiting platform.
A delay will flag up and start costing the TOC money as soon as it hits 3 minutes wherever it occurs on the journey. If a train leaves, say, Sleaford 3 minutes late due to higher than normal passenger numbers, then EMT are still liable for the cost even if the train arrives at Peterborough early. It's daft i know, but it's how the system works.
 
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ivanhoe

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I was once travelling on the 20.48 London train from Lime Street on a Sunday. I was changing at Nuneaton to catch the XC to Leicester. Unfortunately , there was a passenger incident on the VT service and the train was delayed 15 minutes at Stafford. By the time it arrived at Nuneaton, the XC had just departed. The train manager on the VT service had stated that XC control would not hold the train at Nuneaton. This was the last service to Leicester. LM who run Nuneaton organised 6 taxis to Leicester.

I could not fault the help given by staff on board VT and by London Midland at Nuneaton. The staff on board the XC had no say in the situation so one looks to XC control as to why they could not hold by 5 minutes. Given that the service terminates in Leicester and then waits 20 minutes before going back to Brum, you really wonder why XC control did not hold the train. It comes across as shear bloody mindness at times . The cost of the taxis, reputational damage etc have no value on the modern railway.
 

radamfi

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The British rail network is not intended for use where you have to connect between services, unless the connecting service runs very frequently. They want you to use the car for such journeys. You have to move to somewhere else in Europe if you want to make such connections, somewhere were they have built proper infrastructure to allow for connections and where they don't have financial penalties which deter holding trains. Of course, trains won't always be held, even in the advanced railways of mainland Europe, but there is a much greater expectation of making connections and using connecting trains as a matter of routine.
 

ainsworth74

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The British rail network is not intended for use where you have to connect between services

And yet just about every journey I make involves making connections and it's incredibly rare that I've had problems (and by no means all of those connecting services are frequent).
 

radamfi

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And yet just about every journey I make involves making connections and it's incredibly rare that I've had problems (and by no means all of those connecting services are frequent).

That means that either the trains you are using are extremely punctual, or you are leaving a long connection time between trains. In Switzerland, you can usually rely on 2-3 minute connections as you know the train will wait even if the first train is 4 minutes late.
 
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