Why are there so many Finnish Steam engines in the UK? What was their purpose?

[Class450/4DES]

As said in the title, why are there so many? I know it has something to do with the strategic steam reserve. But why were many sent to us? The loading and track gauge is different. Were they for display use or made for a planned heritage railway with that gauge? I know there is only one working locomotive, that being 1016.

 

[zwk500]

I know it has something to do with the strategic steam reserve. But why were many sent to us?

What or whose strategic steam reserve?

 

[james_the_xv]

I know it has something to do with the strategic steam reserve.

Hasn't this myth been debunked? There was no UK 'official' SSR. The govt would have commandeered preserved locos and austerities still running about at collieries.

 

[Falcon1200]

There was no UK 'official' SSR.

Does the OP not mean that the locos were part of Finland's strategic reserve, which is why they survived? Why they were brought to the UK is the interesting question, was there once a plan to convert the Epping/Ongar line to Finnish gauge and use a couple of the locos there?

 

[Gloster]

For various reasons the Finns kept a reserve of steam locomotives long after most countries: these reasons include the fleet being relatively modern, Finland’s geopolitical position and the availability of wood as fuel. When they decided that they were no longer needed somebody seems to have thought that the they were a bargain and bought them on spec. as they were in good condition. I still don’t know if they realised that they were to a different gauge or just thought there would be a market for static locos.

 

[Cowley]

For various reasons the Finns kept a reserve of steam locomotives long after most countries: these reasons include the fleet being relatively modern, Finland’s geopolitical position and the availability of wood as fuel. When they decided that they were no longer needed somebody seems to have thought that the they were a bargain and bought them on spec. as they were in good condition. I still don’t know if they realised that they were to a different gauge or just thought there would be a market for static locos.

I think @Falcon1200 is correct in his point that the original idea was to convert the Epping and Ongar Railway to Finnish gauge and to use them on that. It’s a very interesting ‘what might have been’…

 

[DarloRich]

were these Finnish locos built in the UK? presumably there was a plan ( outside of the Epping and Ongar) to regauge them to the UK gauge.

 

[Cowley]

were these Finnish locos built in the UK? presumably there was a plan ( outside of the Epping and Ongar) to regauge them to the UK gauge.

Pretty sure that they came from Finland from their own strategic reserve. I think there was talk of re gauging one at one point yes.

 

[Gloster]

were these Finnish locos built in the UK? presumably there was a plan ( outside of the Epping and Ongar) to regauge them to the UK gauge.

Pretty sure that they came from Finland from their own strategic reserve. I think there was talk of re gauging one at one point yes.

Most were Finnish-built, but one came from Jung in Germany and two from Frichs in Denmark.

I am not sure if the Epping idea was before the whole thing started or a result of there being locos available. I don’t think that the regauging idea survived contact with reality.

 

[DarloRich]

Pretty sure that they came from Finland from their own strategic reserve. I think there was talk of re gauging one at one point yes.

gotcha - wondered if they were Hunslets or something similar

I don’t think that the regauging idea survived contact with reality.

thanks and agreed!

 

[Class450/4DES]

Does the OP not mean that the locos were part of Finland's strategic reserve, which is why they survived? Why they were brought to the UK is the interesting question, was there once a plan to convert the Epping/Ongar line to Finnish gauge and use a couple of the locos there?

Ah thanks!

 

[geoffk]

Perhaps the Finns will want them back if the present regime in Russia expands its ambitions. Or Ukraine could make use of them if oil supplies/electricity get cut off.

 

[Spamcan81]

As said in the title, why are there so many? I know it has something to do with the strategic steam reserve. But why were many sent to us? The loading and track gauge is different. Were they for display use or made for a planned heritage railway with that gauge? I know there is only one working locomotive, that being 1016.

It was thought that a heritage line starting from scratch would be interested in buying 5ft gauge locos in a ready to run condition as they could lay the track to that gauge. None did. There was also the thought that existing lines would buy them and regauge them. IIRC the NVR did look at the idea but gave it up as a non starter. There would also have been the matter of obtaining rolling stock to the same gauge. IMO these ideas were non starters in the first place as evidenced by the fact that none have ended up working on a heritage line. The late David Buck had one on his private network and I have a feeling one was steamed on a short length of track at Weeting on the estate where they hold the annual steam rally. This may be the same one as ended up with David Buck though.

 

[DarloRich]

So where are they all now? Razor blades?

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps someone in the UK was thinking of invading Russia?

 

[Spamcan81]

So where are they all now? Razor blades?

Last time I was at Ongar there was a derelict one in the sidings. I’ve no idea what happened to the rest.

 

[Cowley]

I just found a thread on them from 12 years ago!

Finnish broad gauge steam in Britain?

Hello to everyone, about 20 yrs ago some moth-balled Finnish 1524mm gauge steam locomotives were brought to Britain. Anybody know about their current status? I understood there was a large Mikado in Kent and a Pacific north of London, but the information I can find is rather scarce. Anybody...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[4SubAsociation]

Ok this is something i do a little of.

From what i understand a job lot was brought over to Acton, Sudbury Suffolk. There was a thread (not on railforums but here - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/150396-finnish-steam-locomotives-in-england/) which covers what was brought over. I have seen a few of them myself. Here is a couple of pics i have of the ones stored privately.

The 1st one is a VR1 - that has had some bits taken off but not much progress since. The other two are Tk3s. All are un-restored.

One is restored and running in the UK on a private railway (HR1 class). Video from LMM channel -

 

[Class450/4DES]

It was thought that a heritage line starting from scratch would be interested in buying 5ft gauge locos in a ready to run condition as they could lay the track to that gauge. None did. There was also the thought that existing lines would buy them and regauge them. IIRC the NVR did look at the idea but gave it up as a non starter. There would also have been the matter of obtaining rolling stock to the same gauge. IMO these ideas were non starters in the first place as evidenced by the fact that none have ended up working on a heritage line. The late David Buck had one on his private network and I have a feeling one was steamed on a short length of track at Weeting on the estate where they hold the annual steam rally. This may be the same one as ended up with David Buck though.

Oh okay! A 5ft gauge railway in the UK would be interesting, shame it never happened.

 

[Gloster]

The current location of the locos is unclear. At least one, and possibly a couple of others, are believed to have been scrapped and others are probably beyond redemption. Several have been plinthed, although some have been deplinthed. A few were restored, even to full working order, but as these seem to have been mostly private owners, long term plans may change. There are supposed to be several at Sellindge, which might have a future, and Tk3 1144 at Bressingham, which is probably best placed, along with Tr1 1016 which was in BR Green.

 

[4SubAsociation]

The current location of the locos is unclear. At least one, and possibly a couple of others, are believed to have been scrapped and others are probably beyond redemption. Several have been plinthed, although some have been deplinthed. A few were restored, even to full working order, but as these seem to have been mostly private owners, long term plans may change. There are supposed to be several at Sellindge, which might have a future, and Tk3 1144 at Bressingham, which is probably best placed, along with Tr1 1016 which was in BR Green.

The three photographed are there.

 

[Egg Centric]

How practical would it be to regauge the locomotives to standard gauge. To be clear I am referring to track gauge only. It's possible the locomotives were originally designed such that this would have been practical - it's kind of thing I'd have specced.

If the case then I'm pretty sure there's some Berne gauge preserved railways?

 

[Gloster]

How practical would it be to regauge the locomotives to standard gauge. To be clear I am referring to track gauge only. It's possible the locomotives were originally designed such that this would have been practical - it's kind of thing I'd have specced.

If the case then I'm pretty sure there's some Berne gauge preserved railways?

I doubt it would be practical as they were all to Finnish pre-war designs and so designed from the first to be 1524 mm gauge. There is also the problem of loading-gauge: the Tk3 are approx 4.3 metres to the top of the dome and 3.1 metres over the cylinders.

 

[D Williams]

How practical would it be to regauge the locomotives to standard gauge. To be clear I am referring to track gauge only. It's possible the locomotives were originally designed such that this would have been practical - it's kind of thing I'd have specced.

If the case then I'm pretty sure there's some Berne gauge preserved railways?

Not a chance. I had a good look at one when it was delivered. It was complete even down to oil cans and tools. Heavily greased and coated with a heavy industrial type of paint. You could have lit it up and steamed it. It was a pirated Baldwin design, you could stand on the footplate and imagine rolling prairies and stage coaches! Supposedly they were bought with a view to conversion to standard gauge but as someone points out even if this were possible and I couldn't see how, it would be a long way out of the loading gauge.

 

[Egg Centric]

I doubt it would be practical as they were all to Finnish pre-war designs and so designed from the first to be 1524 mm gauge. There is also the problem of loading-gauge: the Tk3 are approx 4.3 metres to the top of the dome and 3.1 metres over the cylinders.

Not a chance. I had a good look at one when it was delivered. It was complete even down to oil cans and tools. Heavily greased and coated with a heavy industrial type of paint. You could have lit it up and steamed it. It was a pirated Baldwin design, you could stand on the footplate and imagine rolling prairies and stage coaches! Supposedly they were bought with a view to conversion to standard gauge but as someone points out even if this were possible and I couldn't see how, it would be a long way out of the loading gauge.

I was hoping it would be reasonably easy to find a heritage railway (no idea about E&OR) which would have a decent loading gauge or could be altered to one (no idea what GCR is these days but wasn't that originally built to Berne for example?) and just assuming that moving wheels 10cm closer together doesn't have to be that big a deal if the loco was designed with that in mind. But I guess not!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not a chance. I had a good look at one when it was delivered. It was complete even down to oil cans and tools. Heavily greased and coated with a heavy industrial type of paint. You could have lit it up and steamed it. It was a pirated Baldwin design, you could stand on the footplate and imagine rolling prairies and stage coaches! Supposedly they were bought with a view to conversion to standard gauge but as someone points out even if this were possible and I couldn't see how, it would be a long way out of the loading gauge.

Do you know how closely the original design was copied? If it retained the original design's frames width it might be a little easier to convert to standard gauge, similarly if the cylinders' wider position was achieved by spacers rather than complete re-design.

 

[Gloster]

Do you know how closely the original design was copied? If it retained the original design's frames width it might be a little easier to convert to standard gauge, similarly if the cylinders' wider position was achieved by spacers rather than complete re-design.

Between 1898 and 1900 Finnish State Railways bought a number of locos from Baldwin and Richmond, but the locos that came to Britain were all to later designs. Even if they were influenced by the American designs, it is probable (in my opinion) that clearances, etc. would have reverted to more standard ones rather than the larger ones that there may have been on the earlier locos if they were basically standard US designs with longer axles.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Between 1898 and 1900 Finnish State Railways bought a number of locos from Baldwin and Richmond, but the locos that came to Britain were all to later designs. Even if they were influenced by the American designs, it is probable (in my opinion) that clearances, etc. would have reverted to more standard ones rather than the larger ones that there may have been on the earlier locos if they were basically standard US designs with longer axles.

Thanks, that sounds logical - the design had evolved from the original imports. I had in mind the possibility they were following the (alleged) Russian practice of buying just one and then producing copies, but possibly a batch rather than just one.

 

[WesternLancer]

I just found a thread on them from 12 years ago!

Finnish broad gauge steam in Britain?

Hello to everyone, about 20 yrs ago some moth-balled Finnish 1524mm gauge steam locomotives were brought to Britain. Anybody know about their current status? I understood there was a large Mikado in Kent and a Pacific north of London, but the information I can find is rather scarce. Anybody...

www.railforums.co.uk

Interesting read. Did the locomotive under threat of being cut up in 2012 survive or live on I wonder?

 

[simonw]

Hasn't this myth been debunked? There was no UK 'official' SSR. The govt would have commandeered preserved locos and austerities still running about at collieries.

Your final sentence is also a myth. Too few locos and no infrastructure to service them.