Why do major European bus manufacturers still avoid the UK?

[ClydeCoaster]

With the news that Custom Denning is shipping BEV demonstrators to the UK as I type, it’s got me thinking how the UK bus market has changed quite considerably in the last few years and whether any opportunity exists for further foreign entrants.

ADL and Wrightbus obviously still hold their positions dominating new buses in the UK, despite a wobble at Wrightbus. Optare/Switch has made itself niche as it seemed to lose the ability to build anything at all. Scania has all but gone from the bus market and Volvo now seems exclusive to the once mocked MCV and is starting to aggressively claw back its once prime spot in the market. BYD (through ADL) and Yutong have came from nowhere to be serious contenders on the market. It makes me wonder why other European manufacturers haven’t thrown their hat into the ring?

So…what puts VDL, MAN, Iveco, Ebusco and Solaris off entering the UK market? Building small batches of RHD models hasn’t seemed to deter Irizar, Caetano, Temsa (with the Avenue) and Van Hool (I know the Exquicity is an exception, I’m referring to the H2 buses in Aberdeen). Is it a lack of a double deck offering? I know distribution/parts/service is a big selling point but for the likes of Iveco and MAN that’s already in place. Would they, if approached by a major operator, be tempted?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That classic benchmark for quality, Kaessbohrer Setra, withdrew quite recently from the right hand drive market, did they not? Does anyone know if they cited a reason?

 

[GusB]

That classic benchmark for quality, Kaessbohrer Setra, withdrew quite recently from the right hand drive market, did they not? Does anyone know if they cited a reason?

The coach building arm of Kassbohrer was acquired by Daimler/Mercedes - presumably they considered the UK market to be too small for both marques. Setra never really sold a huge number of coaches over here anyway.

I used to enjoy taking the first National Express out of Aberdeen in the morning; the allocated vehicle was usually one of Bebb's Setras and you were guaranteed a fairly "brisk" journey down the A92!

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Personally I’ve always said in previous years in the UK that anything with a Volvo Chassis was the best bus product you could find in the UK market, I still stand by that.

I am guessing that a lot of this came down to cost as well, when ADL and Wrights started selling lightweight E200/300 and Streetlites against the competition at the time of heavyweight B7RLEs and Mercedes Citaros the benefit in fuel savings from lighter models made heavy stuff unattractive..

All of this was simply against what the likes of Volvo and other European manufacturer see as fit.

In a way I can see why they don’t want to, it was only going to be a matter of time until lightweight models proved inferior and EV models being the touted future which are heavy chassis buses, would it have made sense for Volvo, Scania and MAN to invest in new products for the UK market?

 

[ClydeCoaster]

In a way I can see why they don’t want to, it was only going to be a matter of time until lightweight models proved inferior and EV models being the touted future which are heavy chassis buses, would it have made sense for Volvo, Scania and MAN to invest in new products for the UK market?

Yet Volvo never withdrew its heavy duty offering, and indeed its seeing something of a surprising revival with a decent number of B8RLEs entering service these days.

Diesel heavyweights aside, as you say EVs are the touted future and they are heavyweight. Existing (and very successful) offerings from VDL, MAN and Solaris are selling in large numbers across Europe yet there's no hint of them crossing rhe channel.

 

[rf_ioliver]

The coach building arm of Kassbohrer was acquired by Daimler/Mercedes - presumably they considered the UK market to be too small for both marques. Setra never really sold a huge number of coaches over here anyway.

I used to enjoy taking the first National Express out of Aberdeen in the morning; the allocated vehicle was usually one of Bebb's Setras and you were guaranteed a fairly "brisk" journey down the A92!

When you say "Bebb's Setras" what year are we talking? Bebb meaning Bebbs of South Wales? If so, I used to travel to school on their Setras...late 80s

 

[JonathanH]

whether any opportunity exists for further foreign entrants

Do we want to wipe out the UK bus manufacturing industry?

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Do we want to wipe out the UK bus manufacturing industry?

Oh yes. That was the sole reasoning behind my interest and the reason why I posed the question.

<Insert eye rolling emoji here>

Competition is always healthy.

 

[JonathanH]

Competition is always healthy.

That depends on how big the market is, and what is looking to be achieved by competition.

There are interesting points above about the differences in the UK market from that abroad, notably the point about the limited market here for heavyweight single deckers and the continued use of double deckers that is not replicated abroad.

The UK market doesn't really go for the European city bus models, and there seem to be fewer vehicles from Europe these days in the bus area. What is more noticeable is that coaches come mainly from European manufacturers now.

 

[JD2168]

MAN used to be very popular with Stagecoach particularly in ALX300 & Enviro300 variety but I think reliability was a factor in this ending & some engines replaced by Cummins examples.

VDL I only seem to see with Arriva but do they offer a Euro6 engined vehicle that could be used in the UK?

 

[ClydeCoaster]

I should have been more specific in meaning their EV offerings. All EVs are heavyweight, there's more of a level playing field on weight. And with most EVs with their batteries in the roof pod, interior layout is an easier obstacle to get round for the UK. Yes we like more seats and fewer doors, but that's not an insurmountable option. Like I said above, Caetano, Irizar and Van Hool have swallowed it for small numbers.

 

[MotCO]

Maybe the answer is the same reason why we see so few UK buses exported to mainland Europe. There are a few Solos in mainland Europe, there are the ADL E500s in Berlin, and Wright seem to have secured some hydrogen bus orders, but these are penny numbers. Are the mainland Europe and ULK markets so diferent, (apart from LHD v RHD)? Where has the ubiquitous Dart / E200 stormed the mainland European market? Nowhere really. So maybe we rely on smaller buses which mabe are mainly built in the UK?

 

[Simon75]

Maybe the answer is the same reason why we see so few UK buses exported to mainland Europe. There are a few Solos in mainland Europe, there are the ADL E500s in Berlin, and Wright seem to have secured some hydrogen bus orders, but these are penny numbers. Are the mainland Europe and ULK markets so diferent, (apart from LHD v RHD)? Where has the ubiquitous Dart / E200 stormed the mainland European market? Nowhere really. So maybe we rely on smaller buses which mabe are mainly built in the UK?

Or could it be its easier to make either Left hand drive only or Right hand drive only ?

 

[90sWereBetter]

A lot of European single deck chassis are optimised for city operation (full low floor, triple door) and of course are LHD. Pretty much every Citaro I've caught in the UK has a sub-optimal interior layout because it's the exact same chassis just converted to RHD and only one door fitted.

The Volvo B7L saga in the late 90s/early 2000s probably didn't help perceptions. Volvo trying to push the UK market which had grown used to the excellent Olympian and B10BLE products to a pan-European one-size-fits-all chassis was only ever going to end one way. I don't think the B7L/Plaxton President double deck demonstrator did a single day in service, simply because of how awful the vehicle was!

Plaxton President Concept Bus.

this was a surprise when i first saw it, "plaxton building a double decker", if i remember rightly the volvo B7L that it was on was a concept at the time too, this was a coach and bus show at the NEC, can't remember the year.

www.flickr.com

By the time Volvo realised it was a dead duck and reengineered the chassis with an Olympian rear end to create the B7TL, DAF and Dennis had made huge gains in the UK double-deck market and Volvo's hitherto dominance of this sector was over.

The B7L single decker wasn't much better in the UK, it only sold about 300 units iirc, almost all of them to First. The B7RLE was a vast improvement.

 

[MotCO]

A lot of European single deck chassis are optimised for city operation (full low floor, triple door) and of course are LHD. Pretty much every Citaro I've caught in the UK has a sub-optimal interior layout because it's the exact same chassis just converted to RHD and only one door fitted.

This may be the nub of the problem. However, there is a RHD and LHD version of the ADL E500 operating in Hong Kong and Berlin - how different are they apart from moving the doors, cab and staircases? Are all the components mirror-imaged, or was the LHD version in Berlin a compromise?

 

[Towers]

As above, it’s worth remembering that mainstream european operations tend to be very different to the UK; multi-door vehicles with a high proportion of standees and bendybuses come to mind, neither of which have ever found favour in Britain. Manufacturers have tried offering european style mechanical layouts in the UK and failed, and of course First famously tried to move away from double deckers and usher in an era of British bendies, also without success. British passengers like to sit down, and British roads are in general pretty hostile towards excessively long vehicles like bendy buses.

Volvo have traditionally stayed away from lightweight and midibus offerings, having enjoyed very little success with the B6 and B6LE, which was their attempt at a Dennis Dart rival. The market for heavy buses has declined as fuel prices have soared and operators want lightweight fleets, and this will have obviously damaged Volvo’s sales figures. Likewise Scania offered the lighter OmniLink alongside the OmniCity and OmniDekka, but it’s a rare beast in the UK despite the successes of its heavier cousins.

With their ranges of double deckers and lightweight midibuses, ADL & Wright have between them pretty much sewm up the UK market, there just isn’t much room there for anyone else!

 

[MCR247]

I think the best example of a European bus making it over to the UK is the Scania Omnicity. I’m sure Nottingham City Transport had the first ones converted from LHD (or something?)

 

[MotCO]

I think the best example of a European bus making it over to the UK is the Scania Omnicity. I’m sure Nottingham City Transport had the first ones converted from LHD (or something?)

Was the Omnicity double decker developed for the UK market, or were any sold in LHD form for mainland Europe?

 

[MCR247]

Was the Omnicity double decker developed for the UK market, or were any sold in LHD form for mainland Europe?

I believe it was developed for the UK market due to the popularity of their chassis’ for the Omnidekkas but a lot of companies (understandably) just kept going with the East Lancs bodies

 

[JD2168]

A lot of European single deck chassis are optimised for city operation (full low floor, triple door) and of course are LHD. Pretty much every Citaro I've caught in the UK has a sub-optimal interior layout because it's the exact same chassis just converted to RHD and only one door fitted.

The Volvo B7L saga in the late 90s/early 2000s probably didn't help perceptions. Volvo trying to push the UK market which had grown used to the excellent Olympian and B10BLE products to a pan-European one-size-fits-all chassis was only ever going to end one way. I don't think the B7L/Plaxton President double deck demonstrator did a single day in service, simply because of how awful the vehicle was!

Plaxton President Concept Bus.

this was a surprise when i first saw it, "plaxton building a double decker", if i remember rightly the volvo B7L that it was on was a concept at the time too, this was a coach and bus show at the NEC, can't remember the year.

www.flickr.com

By the time Volvo realised it was a dead duck and reengineered the chassis with an Olympian rear end to create the B7TL, DAF and Dennis had made huge gains in the UK double-deck market and Volvo's hitherto dominance of this sector was over.

The B7L single decker wasn't much better in the UK, it only sold about 300 units iirc, almost all of them to First. The B7RLE was a vast improvement.

Interesting to read about the B7L decker as First ended up with some Tri-axle versions with East Lancs Nordic bodies that they used in Glasgow. They all ended up at BrightBus on school services, when BrightBus closed down they have ended up with a number of school bus operators & Wellglade who put them into use at Notts & Derby & TM Travel. The ones at TM have not been used for a long while (probably withdrawn).

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I tell you what I have been surprised about is the increase in MCV Evoras being sold with B8 Volvo chassis in the UK.

Quite a few B8L tri-axles have also been sold as well, Lothian Buses and Stagecoach in England being the biggest takers it seems, many independents have MCV EvoSeti bodied models.

Interesting to read about the B7L decker as First ended up with some Tri-axle versions with East Lancs Nordic bodies that they used in Glasgow. They all ended up at BrightBus on school services, when BrightBus closed down they have ended up with a number of school bus operators & Wellglade who put them into use at Notts & Derby & TM Travel. The ones at TM have not been used for a long while (probably withdrawn).

I’m assuming those B7L 6x2 models were purchased for there capacity??

 

[pm2304877]

Blame the 1985 Transport Act. A stupid law that wants operators to compete and outlaws cross subsidy but meanwhile manufacturers are reducing in numbers. So instead of an operator monopoly we have a manufacturer virtual monopoly.
On the European mainland the buses are regulated, subsidised and they don't have stupid bus wars using 20 year old wrecks, although instances of this nonsense still flare up now and then.

 

[OptareOlympus]

Volvo screwed up royally in the UK in the run up to Euro 6. Up until the eleventh hour, the planned replacement for the Euro 5 B9TL was to be a Euro 6 B8TL. However, at a late stage, TfL operators stated their preference for a lighter weight decker for Euro 6 and Volvo subsequently responded by replacing the planned B8TL with the B5TL. At the same time as Volvo launched the B5TL in October 2013 with the abysmal lightweight Gemini 3 body, those same TfL operators all turned to Hybrids and no B5TL orders were ever placed for London. It really was a missed opportunity. The B5TL is the best engineered Volvo decker since the Olympian. It's gorgeous to drive and handles and rides like a dream. It's just so woefully underpowered. Had the B8TL been introduced as planned, I'm sure it would have sold in vastly greater numbers than the B5TL. The MCV Evoseti is also in a different league to the junk thrown out by ADL and Wright at Euro 6.

 

[MotCO]

Blame the 1985 Transport Act. A stupid law that wants operators to compete and outlaws cross subsidy but meanwhile manufacturers are reducing in numbers. So instead of an operator monopoly we have a manufacturer virtual monopoly.

And also allowed operators to innovate. Thus we have Transdev's route 36 (Leeds to Harrogate) and First's Excel services in Norfolk with well-appointed bespoke vehicles, we have the Metrobus network in Crawley with extended hours of operation, etc etc, all requiring additional vehicles, so why do you believe that the 1985 Act reduced the number of operators? Surely Leyland sufered before this from not producing the right vehicles - you can have any bus you like provided it is a Leyland National in red or green, you can have any double decker you like provided it was the over-complicated Leyland Titan etc.

The Transport Act also saw the proliferation of minibus routes - if manufacturers were too slow to react to this trend, then so be it. It allowed Dennis to flourish and become ADL.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

While I understand the impacts of Euro 6 and the layout of continental citybuses being vastly different to UK preferences (multiple doors, fewer seats) often driving the position and mounting of an engine, we're shifting massively and rapidly away from diesel power in urban buses. Now with battery packs in the roof (or indeed blade batteries under floor) the interior of the bus is surely an easier canvas to adapt to UK tastes?

Having travelled on the VDL Citea and MAN Lion's City E, for example (both rather excellent), the interior layout could be easily adapted with more seats (on a Citea last week in Rotterdam I counted the possibility for 40 seats in a 12m example). The Mercedes eCitaro, Irizar ie Tram, Caetano eCity Gold and Volvo 7900e are all examples of typical continental citybuses crossing the channel.

Wrightbus have had success with small batches of the Kite ordered in Europe, perhaps the cross over isn't finished yet?

 

[CBlue]

Blame the 1985 Transport Act. A stupid law that wants operators to compete and outlaws cross subsidy but meanwhile manufacturers are reducing in numbers. So instead of an operator monopoly we have a manufacturer virtual monopoly.
On the European mainland the buses are regulated, subsidised and they don't have stupid bus wars using 20 year old wrecks, although instances of this nonsense still flare up now and then.

So there wasn't a monopoly in bus manufacturers before 1985?

Leyland owned AEC and Daimler by then, and the NBC only really purchased Bristol VR's or Leyland Nationals with nothing else getting a look in apart from tiny batches for one-off requirements. Your comment that privatisation caused some kind of monopoly among manufacturers is total nonsense.

 

[A0]

So there wasn't a monopoly in bus manufacturers before 1985?

Leyland owned AEC and Daimler by then, and the NBC only really purchased Bristol VR's or Leyland Nationals with nothing else getting a look in apart from tiny batches for one-off requirements. Your comment that privatisation caused some kind of monopoly among manufacturers is total nonsense.

NBC also bought a number of Atlanteans - London Country had almost 300 of them, the vast majority ordered under NBC control, other NBC operators of Atlanteans included Southdown, Ribble, Northern, City of Oxford among others.

And the Olympian was also widely bought by the NBC to replace older double deckers.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Volvo screwed up royally in the UK in the run up to Euro 6. Up until the eleventh hour, the planned replacement for the Euro 5 B9TL was to be a Euro 6 B8TL. However, at a late stage, TfL operators stated their preference for a lighter weight decker for Euro 6 and Volvo subsequently responded by replacing the planned B8TL with the B5TL. At the same time as Volvo launched the B5TL in October 2013 with the abysmal lightweight Gemini 3 body, those same TfL operators all turned to Hybrids and no B5TL orders were ever placed for London. It really was a missed opportunity. The B5TL is the best engineered Volvo decker since the Olympian. It's gorgeous to drive and handles and rides like a dream. It's just so woefully underpowered. Had the B8TL been introduced as planned, I'm sure it would have sold in vastly greater numbers than the B5TL. The MCV Evoseti is also in a different league to the junk thrown out by ADL and Wright at Euro 6.

I agree. At the very least you would've though they would've offered both a B5TL and B8TL, not offering a B8TL was a missed opportunity and Volvo really did shoot themselves in the foot.

Given the immense popularity of the B8RLE/Evora it does make you wonder about the potential a B8TL/Evoseti would've had.

I think to answer the original post... The UK is a relatively small/niche market and many manufacturers probably don't see much value in developing bespoke products that will only ever sell in limited numbers.

The Mercedes eCitaro, Irizar ie Tram, Caetano eCity Gold and Volvo 7900e are all examples of typical continental citybuses crossing the channel.

Even when you look at those though sales have been very limited and in most cases limited to one customer. The eCitaro has been in the UK almost 3 years now and if i'm not mistaken the only order has been from Transdev Harrogate? The Irizar ie Tram and Caetano eCity Gold have only been purchased by TFL and the Volvo 7900e has been phased out in favour of the MCV bodied Volvo BZL.

I tell you what I have been surprised about is the increase in MCV Evoras being sold with B8 Volvo chassis in the UK.

I've heard from a few operators that the 10.8M Evora is offered for around £20k less than the equivalent 10.8M Enviro200MMC so if true that is no doubt a factor. Of course there's also the fact that subjectively speaking its a far superior vehicle to anything ADL, Optare or Wrightbus put out in terms of diesels and they seem to improve with each batch.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I agree. At the very least you would've though they would've offered both a B5TL and B8TL, not offering a B8TL was a missed opportunity and Volvo really did shoot themselves in the foot.

Given the immense popularity of the B8RLE/Evora it does make you wonder about the potential a B8TL/Evoseti would've had.

Realistically it would not have been difficult for Volvo to produce a transverse chassis for either the D5 or D8 engine to be fitted, the layout of the B5TL is more or less the same as the previous B7 & B9 chassis.

Its known that Wrightbus have made a few 6-cylinder diesel streetdecks, there is an appetite for that, maybe less so now but still.

I think to answer the original post... The UK is a relatively small/niche market and many manufacturers probably don't see much value in developing bespoke products that will only ever sell in limited numbers.

Even when you look at those though sales have been very limited and in most cases limited to one customer. The eCitaro has been in the UK almost 3 years now and if i'm not mistaken the only order has been from Transdev Harrogate? The Irizar ie Tram and Caetano eCity Gold have only been purchased by TFL and the Volvo 7900e has been phased out in favour of the MCV bodied Volvo BZL.

With the rollout of EV products ADLs dominance has certainly been diminished somewhat.

I've heard from a few operators that the 10.8M Evora is offered for around £20k less than the equivalent 10.8M Enviro200MMC so if true that is no doubt a factor. Of course there's also the fact that subjectively speaking its a far superior vehicle to anything ADL, Optare or Wrightbus put out in terms of diesels and they seem to improve with each batch.

Purchase price aside, I could not agree more with the operators who have purchased the short MCV Evora on the B8 chassis, it’s two classes above alternative lightweight models of the same length.

They're quiet, smooth and noticeably have more power on hills than the alternative competition.

Credit to those engineers who have worked on the D8K engine, probably the smoothest and quietest 6-cylinder diesel in a modern bus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

NBC also bought a number of Atlanteans - London Country had almost 300 of them, the vast majority ordered under NBC control, other NBC operators of Atlanteans included Southdown, Ribble, Northern, City of Oxford among others.

And the Olympian was also widely bought by the NBC to replace older double deckers.

The Olympian was, of course, the replacement for the preferred Bristol VR. NBC did undertake operational comparisons with Scania Metropolitans, Bristol VRs, MCW Metrobuses, Volvo Ailsas and Dennis Dominators, and a lone Foden NC. Northern and Maidstone & District subsequently bought Metrobuses but it was still mainly VRs (and latterly Olympians).

Now, the Scania Metropolitan is an interesting case in point. It was bought in greater numbers by London Transport, a number of PTEs, and a few municipals. However, and this was before the issues of corrosion were fully known, was that they were very heavy on fuel consumption. Of course, once they came up for their 7 year Certificate of Fitness, that corrosion issue meant many firms withdrew theirs at seven years if not earlier.

*****

The crux of the issue is money.

As a manager/accountant/fleet engineer, you can very definitely see the cost difference of heavyweight vehicles. Higher purchase costs, higher running costs (in fuel, and in parts). Also, with some foreign vehicles, there's the issue of parts availability so having more downtime is a cost in itself.

Some will point at the intangible and subjective benefits such as ride quality. That is much more difficult to quantify.

On the continent, you may have fleets provided to operators (who merely use and maintain them as part of their contract) so if they're doing 3 mpg, they're not on the hook.

they don't have stupid bus wars using 20 year old wrecks

Please point us to the place where there's a bus war using 20 year old vehicles.