Why do only Worcester and Hereford InterCity services call at Slough, whilst the rest of GWR inter city services to Paddington skip it.

[Merseyrailfan]

Question: Is there any reason the only GWR Intercity services that call at Slough are the Worcester and Hereford Services, why do they have stops in Slough, Whilst the South Wales and West Country services head nonstop through to Reading? Are Worcester and Hereford services even Express after Readings, the amount of stops along Cotswold Line, make it seem like a Semi fast service. How this happen? Did most or all Express services used call at Slough? Thanks.

 

[sk688]

They are fast to Reading from May onwards

 

[Merseyrailfan]

They are fast to Reading from May onwards

So just semi fast and stopping trains stopping at Slough from now on?

Is there still going to be semi fast services to Didcot Parkway and Oxford?

 

[A S Leib]

So just semi fast and stopping trains stopping at Slough from now on?

Is there still going to be semi fast services to Didcot Parkway and Oxford?

2 tph to Didcot Parkway calling at Slough, Maidenhead and all stations to Didcot.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=GW

 

[70014IronDuke]

Going back to the OP's question, while I am not an expert on historical WR services, I think you will find that Slough used to be a more important "Inter-City" station (at least in relative terms, relative to the number of trains that is) back in the 60s and maybe 70s. For example, it was the original station for the connecting bus service to Heathrow, before BR concentrated that traffic on Reading.

And, a bit like, say, St Albans on the Midland, when local services were less frequent, Inter-City stops helped give the place a decent service for the era.

But as local service frequencies improved, and with the growing importance of Reading as the outer-London changeover hub, management felt that time penalty versus the extra traffic generated by having a stop simply wasn't worth it, especially on 'flagship' services to Bristol, the south west and South Wales.

Worcester and Hereford have always been the least important Inter-City services on the Paddington palette, so they've 'held on' to the Slough stops - but presumably GwR management has decided that the penalty involved is more of a minus than previously. I presume removing the stop also means increased utilisation of the potential capacity on the fast lines between Paddington and Reading - so another win there.

 

[PTR 444]

Question: Is there any reason the only GWR Intercity services that call at Slough are the Worcester and Hereford Services, why do they have stops in Slough, Whilst the South Wales and West Country services head nonstop through to Reading? Are Worcester and Hereford services even Express after Readings, the amount of stops along Cotswold Line, make it seem like a Semi fast service. How this happen? Did most or all Express services used call at Slough? Thanks.

There simply isn’t the capacity on the GWML to stop more fasts at Slough. If they did, other fasts would catch up unless you stopped every single one. That in itself creates a significant time penalty for longer distance travellers to Bristol, Cardiff, Devon and Cornwall.

 

[Falcon1200]

IIRC when the WR introduced its first HST full timetable, there was an hourly stopping service which ran alternately to Bristol and Cardiff, and these train did call at Slough. However, as above the route is used more intensively now so something has to give.

 

[30907]

As for the section beyond Oxford, there hasn't been a true express service for decades. The fastest trains back in the 50s used to call only at Moreton and Evesham, often Kingham and Pershore as well. Charlbury had to be added when the local trains were (nearly all) withdrawn, then commuters discovered Hanborough and Honeybourne...

 

[irish_rail]

Slough stops on the mains have always got in the way of everything else. Lost count of how many times I've been checked over the years around Slough due to a cautiously driven, or late running train to or from Worcester and Hereford. Be interested to know will the Didcot trains now stopping there be using the Main lines or reliefs????

 

[ChrisHogan]

Slough stops on the mains have always got in the way of everything else. Lost count of how many times I've been checked over the years around Slough due to a cautiously driven, or late running train to or from Worcester and Hereford. Be interested to know will the Didcot trains now stopping there be using the Main lines or reliefs????

Mains westbound to Dolphin then Reliefs and vv. Platforms 2/3 at Slough out of use.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Mains westbound to Dolphin then Reliefs and vv. Platforms 2/3 at Slough out of use.

Platforms 2/3 at Slough are not out of use - yes there will be restricted access by the means of platform gates similar to locations such as Wimbledon and the number of trains using these platforms will reduce drastically.

On SX the 1P10 06.10 Oxford to Paddington is still booked to call at Slough platform 3 and on Sundays hourly Oxfords will call in both directions on platforms 2 and 3 as the Didcot local service is only every hour.

 

[70014IronDuke]

As for the section beyond Oxford, there hasn't been a true express service for decades. The fastest trains back in the 50s used to call only at Moreton and Evesham, often Kingham and Pershore as well. Charlbury had to be added when the local trains were (nearly all) withdrawn, then commuters discovered Hanborough and Honeybourne...

This is the reality. Worcester and Hereford are simply not that important as traffic generators for services to London. They never have been. They are the Cleethorpes and Hulls of western-central England.

The good denizens of these cathedral cities should be grateful to the commuters of Evesham, Moreton etc that they have the frequency of service that they have today.

Even when they had "express services" - how many were there in a day? I suspect two max. (@30907 - can you give the stops of the Cathedrals Express in 1960?)

 

[irish_rail]

Mains westbound to Dolphin then Reliefs and vv. Platforms 2/3 at Slough out of use.

Hmmm I can see that becoming a bottleneck then, be interesting to see what path these new trains take. Hopefully not a few minutes infront of the Bristol/ Penzance!

 

[zwk500]

Going back to the OP's question, while I am not an expert on historical WR services, I think you will find that Slough used to be a more important "Inter-City" station (at least in relative terms, relative to the number of trains that is) back in the 60s and maybe 70s. For example, it was the original station for the connecting bus service to Heathrow, before BR concentrated that traffic on Reading.

And, a bit like, say, St Albans on the Midland, when local services were less frequent, Inter-City stops helped give the place a decent service for the era.

But as local service frequencies improved, and with the growing importance of Reading as the outer-London changeover hub, management felt that time penalty versus the extra traffic generated by having a stop simply wasn't worth it, especially on 'flagship' services to Bristol, the south west and South Wales.

Worcester and Hereford have always been the least important Inter-City services on the Paddington palette, so they've 'held on' to the Slough stops - but presumably GwR management has decided that the penalty involved is more of a minus than previously. I presume removing the stop also means increased utilisation of the potential capacity on the fast lines between Paddington and Reading - so another win there.

Also worth bearing in mind Slough's status as the junction for Windsor - there's a strong tourist demand for trips out to the Castle and so on. SWR however share the traffic and local services from Paddington upping the frequency cover the rest so it's not as important to stop long-distance trains in order to let tourists gawk at the chosen ones.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

As for the section beyond Oxford, there hasn't been a true express service for decades. The fastest trains back in the 50s used to call only at Moreton and Evesham, often Kingham and Pershore as well. Charlbury had to be added when the local trains were (nearly all) withdrawn, then commuters discovered Hanborough and Honeybourne...

Charlbury stops were added in 1966 in an early attempt to create a railhead station - I have the poster on the wall next to me, which describes it as "the new rail centre for north west Oxfordshire"! Kingham had about half the number of services that Charlbury did, while the "halts" (which then included Hanborough) had a skeleton service then as now.

Charlbury and Kingham's services have both fluctuated over the years - IIRC a few years later there were trains passing through Charlbury without stopping once again.

This is the reality. Worcester and Hereford are simply not that important as traffic generators for services to London. They never have been. They are the Cleethorpes and Hulls of western-central England.

The good denizens of these cathedral cities should be grateful to the commuters of Evesham, Moreton etc that they have the frequency of service that they have today.

Even when they had "express services" - how many were there in a day? I suspect two max. (@30907 - can you give the stops of the Cathedrals Express in 1960?)

My sense (as a nearby resident and traveller on the line over 25 years) is that Evesham doesn't generate much London traffic either. Most of the London traffic is from east of the watershed – Moreton, Kingham, Charlbury, Hanborough. Moreton, Charlbury and Evesham have roughly the same passenger numbers, but most of Evesham's traffic is to/from Worcester.

So yes, Worcester is fortunate to get the service it has - I have ranted previously about the nutty proposals by the North Cotswold Line Taskforce to significantly rejig services to the benefit of Worcester and the detriment of other stations.

In 1966 the service was more or less 2-hourly through the day, with departures from Paddington at 09.15, 11.15, 13.15, 15.15, 17.15, 19.25, each taking about 2hr15-2hr20 to reach Shrub Hill. The frequency is much better these days (Nuneham Viaduct notwithstanding) but the journey time hasn't changed that much, dropping by only about 10 or 15 minutes.

 

[cactustwirly]

Hmmm I can see that becoming a bottleneck then, be interesting to see what path these new trains take. Hopefully not a few minutes infront of the Bristol/ Penzance!

Appears to be xx08 and xx35 from Paddington

Worth noting these services have run in the peaks for years. So it's just a case of running them throughout the day, just like the Thameslink services that run fast to St Albans/Stevenage

 

[JonathanH]

Appears to be xx08 and xx35 from Paddington

xx08 and xx38 with flexing in some hours, and peak trains still at xx20 / xx50
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...23-06-15/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

On the more relevant point of Slough calls, it should probably be noted that going back to the 1990s, there were Intercity Great Western calls in some off-peak Bristol trains at Slough. These reduced once Thames Trains started running half hourly fast services to Oxford. The Slough stops in Oxford and Cotswold services are effectively a legacy of it having been Thames Trains who had run the Cotswold services.

The new arrangement is something which passengers from Maidenhead and Twyford have been calling for for some time.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

xx08 and xx38 with flexing in some hours, and peak trains still at xx20 / xx50
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...23-06-15/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

On the more relevant point of Slough calls, it should probably be noted that going back to the 1990s, there were Intercity Great Western calls in some off-peak Bristol trains at Slough. These reduced once Thames Trains started running half hourly fast services to Oxford. The Slough stops in Oxford and Cotswold services are effectively a legacy of it having been Thames Trains who had run the Cotswold services.

The new arrangement is something which passengers from Maidenhead and Twyford have been calling for for some time.

Yes, Maidenhead and Twyford are definite winners from May. It will be interesting to see to what extent passengers ignore the EL services in favour of the much improved 2tph to Paddington terminus. I think the branch timetables are also aligned to connect with the GWR services so Henley and Marlow etc also benefit from improved journey times to/from the capital.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, Maidenhead and Twyford are definite winners from May. It will be interesting to see to what extent passengers ignore the EL services in favour of the much improved 2tph to Paddington terminus. I think the branch timetables are also aligned to connect with the GWR services so Henley and Marlow etc also benefit from improved journey times to/from the capital.

Well the peak time regulars always aim for the fast services.

It's noticable at Slough, the fast service always had a large amount of people join it

 

[30907]

This is the reality. Worcester and Hereford are simply not that important as traffic generators for services to London. They never have been. They are the Cleethorpes and Hulls of western-central England.

The good denizens of these cathedral cities should be grateful to the commuters of Evesham, Moreton etc that they have the frequency of service that they have today.

Even when they had "express services" - how many were there in a day? I suspect two max. (@30907 - can you give the stops of the Cathedrals Express in 1960?)

I only have 58 and 59, and as the former is online that will have to do

The Cathedrals (4.45pm) and the 11.45am were as I described Moreton and Evesham, 9.45 plus Reading and Kingham but on limited load timings also taking 2 1/2hr, 6.45 R K and Pershore but slower. The only other was 1.45pm which took 3hr and called at Didcot but not Pershore.

In the Up direction the 9am Cathedrals was the only 2 1/2hr timing, the other 2-stopper at 2pm taking 2h47.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is the reality. Worcester and Hereford are simply not that important as traffic generators for services to London. They never have been. They are the Cleethorpes and Hulls of western-central England.
The good denizens of these cathedral cities should be grateful to the commuters of Evesham, Moreton etc that they have the frequency of service that they have today.
Even when they had "express services" - how many were there in a day? I suspect two max.

I spent several years commuting weekly between Great Malvern and Slough (Monday up, Friday down), around 1980.
While off-peak trains called at Reading, the two peak trains were non-stop Oxford-Paddington (the down 1700 was first call Didcot).
I used to sit on the platform at Slough in the evening as the 1700 Paddington-Hereford went through, knowing that I would have to fritter away a whole hour on the locals in order to pick up the 1800 ex-Paddington at Oxford.
It's probably better these days with higher frequencies, but some journeys were actually worse in the peak than off-peak then, and maybe still are.

 

[Pokelet]

There are a few down peak trains along the Cotswolds that skip Slough and Reading and run fast Oxford. Similarly there are several that skip Hanborough or Pershore (or both) throughout the day.

Worcester certainly does have a much better service now than 15 or even 10 years ago when a 2 hourly service was all we had and that was run by Turbos mostly. Only the morning peaks were HST crewed from Bristol.

I believe in the May change Bristol crews loose Hereford via Abergavenny with all Hereford services crewed from Worcester depot.

 

[Falcon1200]

The frequency is much better these days (Nuneham Viaduct notwithstanding) but the journey time hasn't changed that much, dropping by only about 10 or 15 minutes.

As well as the increase in frequency, a major improvement is earlier start times for the service; In the 1971/72 WR timetable there was an 0745 Moreton-Hereford, the next Down train was then the 0810 from Paddington, not due into Worcester Shrub Hill until 1040! Nowadays there is (or would be if not for Nuneham) an 0550 from Paddington, fortunately this is currently starting from Oxford at 0653 so will facilitate my trip to the SVR's Diesel Gala.....

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I spent several years commuting weekly between Great Malvern and Slough (Monday up, Friday down), around 1980.
While off-peak trains called at Reading, the two peak trains were non-stop Oxford-Paddington (the down 1700 was first call Didcot).
I used to sit on the platform at Slough in the evening as the 1700 Paddington-Hereford went through, knowing that I would have to fritter away a whole hour on the locals in order to pick up the 1800 ex-Paddington at Oxford.
It's probably better these days with higher frequencies, but some journeys were actually worse in the peak than off-peak then, and maybe still are.

I commuted Charlbury–Reading in the late 90s/early 2000s and it was similar: I'd sit on the platform at Reading watching a non-stopping HST fly by, waiting for the slow, overcrowded Turbo stopper to turn up 20 minutes later. GWR eventually fixed this (after I'd stopped that commute) and all the Cotswold HSTs began stopping at Reading.

Unfortunately, with the introduction of the IETs, someone had the bright idea to do Oxford "SuperFast" services which meant the Reading stops being dropped again. At present, the 1658, 1757, and 1858 departures from Paddington to the Cotswolds are fast through Reading. That leaves Reading–Cotswold departures as 1619, 1800, 2019 – really not good.

This will largely be reverted at the May timetable change, with Reading calls reinstated in the 1757 and 1858 ex Paddington. The 1658 continues to run fast though.

There are a few down peak trains along the Cotswolds that skip Slough and Reading and run fast Oxford. Similarly there are several that skip Hanborough or Pershore (or both) throughout the day.

Everything calls at Hanborough and has done for several years now (well, except the slightly out-of-pattern 1726 from Foregate Street). You might be thinking of Honeybourne, which a few trains do skip.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

2 tph to Didcot Parkway calling at Slough, Maidenhead and all stations to Didcot.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=GW

So fast to Slough?

 

[Rescars]

This is the reality. Worcester and Hereford are simply not that important as traffic generators for services to London. They never have been. They are the Cleethorpes and Hulls of western-central England.

The good denizens of these cathedral cities should be grateful to the commuters of Evesham, Moreton etc that they have the frequency of service that they have today.

Even when they had "express services" - how many were there in a day? I suspect two max. (@30907 - can you give the stops of the Cathedrals Express in 1960?)

Vinter's booklet on GW Expresses dated 1901 tells of non-stop expresses between Paddington and Worcester. One each way daily. The down train was timetabled to do the run in 2h 16m start to stop (with 170 tons behind the tender)!

 

[swt_passenger]

So fast to Slough?

Yes, this has been known about for around 6 months (at least), it’s associated with the May 2023 full Crossrail timetable. Moving the Didcot trains onto the mains provides more Crossrail capacity on the reliefs towards Paddington.

 

[Pokelet]

I commuted Charlbury–Reading in the late 90s/early 2000s and it was similar: I'd sit on the platform at Reading watching a non-stopping HST fly by, waiting for the slow, overcrowded Turbo stopper to turn up 20 minutes later. GWR eventually fixed this (after I'd stopped that commute) and all the Cotswold HSTs began stopping at Reading.

Unfortunately, with the introduction of the IETs, someone had the bright idea to do Oxford "SuperFast" services which meant the Reading stops being dropped again. At present, the 1658, 1757, and 1858 departures from Paddington to the Cotswolds are fast through Reading. That leaves Reading–Cotswold departures as 1619, 1800, 2019 – really not good.

This will largely be reverted at the May timetable change, with Reading calls reinstated in the 1757 and 1858 ex Paddington. The 1658 continues to run fast though.


Everything calls at Hanborough and has done for several years now (well, except the slightly out-of-pattern 1726 from Foregate Street). You might be thinking of Honeybourne, which a few trains do skip.

Yes, my mistake, 0950, 1150 and 1734 down miss Honeybourne with the latter also missing Pershore.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Unfortunately, with the introduction of the IETs, someone had the bright idea to do Oxford "SuperFast" services which meant the Reading stops being dropped again. At present, the 1658, 1757, and 1858 departures from Paddington to the Cotswolds are fast through Reading. That leaves Reading–Cotswold departures as 1619, 1800, 2019 – really not good.

This will largely be reverted at the May timetable change, with Reading calls reinstated in the 1757 and 1858 ex Paddington. The 1658 continues to run fast though.

It wasn’t a bright idea - it was desperation! Those trains stopping at Reading were threatening to derail the introduction of the whole IET timetable, thanks to the emerging timing of various trains on the Reading- Didcot corridor and the effect on the Cotswolds. We have discussed this problem before.

So the sacrificial lambs were the Reading to Cotswold customers who had to endure the loss of those trains in order to make the timetable work for other customers. I am pleased that the stops can be put back into the 17xx and 18xx trains but somehow getting back to stopping the 16xx train has to be a priority in future timetables but it isn’t a simple thing to do.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It wasn’t a bright idea - it was desperation! Those trains stopping at Reading were threatening to derail the introduction of the whole IET timetable, thanks to the emerging timing of various trains on the Reading- Didcot corridor and the effect on the Cotswolds. We have discussed this problem before.

Fair point - thank you!