Why does the door close button seem rarer on new trains

[Silent]

I don’t use a lot of different train stock so may be wrong but then also it seems to be a thing. For example, I’m not sure, but I don’t think the class 710, has the proper close button that just closes doors from what I’ve heard. I’ve seen comments that the lower button, by the doors, doesn’t close the door. Today I was on a class 730 and noticed no close door button or there was just one button for opening the door, by the doors, probably has different settings though.

 

[AJDesiro]

It's very common on the Aventra fleets, I don't know if it is on anything else. I'd assume it's a combination of cost and usefulness.

The doors on modern rolling stock seem to close very shortly after having opened anyway, so that may well render a door close button obsolete compared to something like a 150 with no air conditioning or automatic closing doors. There is a way on the 730s (and presumably other Aventra's) of closing the doors using the buttons, but this is for staff use really, where the open button on I believe the outside is held down, closing and locking all of the doors in that carriage, effectively a hidden porter button for terminating services. I

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

They have timers these days and close themselves after a certain amount of time, not really needed.

 

[Doctor Pepper]

They have timers these days and close themselves after a certain amount of time, not really needed.

Except when it's really cold and people inside the train want the door closed asap..........

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Except when it's really cold and people inside the train want the door closed asap..........

The heating is generally far too hot on newer trains even when cold. Or possibly dont sit next to the door ‍♂️

 

[WirralLine]

The CAF 197s have door close buttons fitted and people do actually use them particularly in winter, but also in the summer if the AC is working.

On another note on the 197s, if the door is open, you can force it to stay open (and not auto-close) by pressing and holding the open button until it makes a long beep sound. Quite handy to keep the doors held open if the air-conditioning is struggling so you can get some fresh air circulating in while its waiting time!

 

[stadler]

An interesting one is the 378s which have door close buttons that are disabled. Nothing happens when you press it. They used to work but got disabled about three years after the 378s entered service. They still automatically close after a certain amount of seconds so i never understood why they disabled them.

 

[tfw756rider]

On another note on the 197s, if the door is open, you can force it to stay open (and not auto-close) by pressing and holding the open button until it makes a long beep sound. Quite handy to keep the doors held open if the air-conditioning is struggling so you can get some fresh air circulating in while its waiting time!

Ah, so that's what that does - thanks!

I actually discovered the long beep while "seeing" if the "if you hold down the open button before and while the doors are released, they open as soon as released" thing from the Sprinters (and 800s) works on 197s (it doesn't - you just have to press the open button as soon as possible after the doors are released, like on 170s).

 

[Silent]

The CAF 197s have door close buttons fitted and people do actually use them particularly in winter, but also in the summer if the AC is working.

On another note on the 197s, if the door is open, you can force it to stay open (and not auto-close) by pressing and holding the open button until it makes a long beep sound. Quite handy to keep the doors held open if the air-conditioning is struggling so you can get some fresh air circulating in while its waiting time!

You can do similar with class 710’s but I think this is good if someone is using a wheelchair as longer dwell time would be required usually.

An interesting one is the 378s which have door close buttons that are disabled. Nothing happens when you press it. They used to work but got disabled about three years after the 378s entered service. They still automatically close after a certain amount of seconds so i never understood why they disabled them.

Yeah also disabled apparently on the 710s

 

[Lewisham2221]

Ah, so that's what that does - thanks!

I actually discovered the long beep while "seeing" if the "if you hold down the open button before and while the doors are released, they open as soon as released" thing from the Sprinters (and 800s) works on 197s (it doesn't - you just have to press the open button as soon as possible after the doors are released, like on 170s).

Pressing/holding the open button before the doors are released on a 197 can, apparently, actually have the opposite effect and cause that door to not release. I've not experienced it myself, and believe it may only be the case under certain specific circumstances, but it's an issue that CAF are looking into.

 

[edwin_m]

There's a possible hazard with pre-selection of the door open button, that if the button fails with contacts closed t then the door will open as soon as it is released by the crew. If this coincided with the crew opening on the wrong side then it could be serious, but other than that the worst case is probably someone falling onto the platform if they are leaning on the door when it unexpectedly opens. So the difference in behaviour may be just how the different designers perceived this hazard, and whether they've implemented some mitigation such as monitoring the button to see if it is permanently stuck closed.

 

[skyhigh]

Pressing/holding the open button before the doors are released on a 197 can, apparently, actually have the opposite effect and cause that door to not release. I've not experienced it myself, and believe it may only be the case under certain specific circumstances, but it's an issue that CAF are looking into.

Working as designed. If a button is held down for more than 30 seconds, the door goes into fault status and won't open until reset.

 

[edwin_m]

Working as designed. If a button is held down for more than 30 seconds, the door goes into fault status and won't open until reset.

That looks like exactly the hazard mitigation I suggested in my previous post.

 

[43096]

There's a possible hazard with pre-selection of the door open button, that if the button fails with contacts closed t then the door will open as soon as it is released by the crew. If this coincided with the crew opening on the wrong side then it could be serious, but other than that the worst case is probably someone falling onto the platform if they are leaning on the door when it unexpectedly opens. So the difference in behaviour may be just how the different designers perceived this hazard, and whether they've implemented some mitigation such as monitoring the button to see if it is permanently stuck closed.

Interesting that the UK approach is to default assume the crew will cock up door opening, where other, more enlightened, countries allow pre-select to speed up boarding.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting that the UK approach is to default assume the crew will cock up door opening, where other, more enlightened, countries allow pre-select to speed up boarding.

Engineered safeguards are preferred to relying on operational controls (the ERIC hierarchy). But pre-selection is used in the UK as illustrated above and on another thread, subject to engineered safeguards such as monitoring for a stuck button. The TfW issue can most likely be resolved by something in the software, for example to re-enable the door and just record the fault if the button goes back to normal.