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Why doesn't Milton Keynes have a bus route network which fits onto the grid?

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Cesarcollie

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Milton Keynes has a grid of fast flowing roads. However, it is also notorious as the most car-dependent town in England.

As Milton Keynes has a grid, why don't all bus routes run straight direct from the centre to the destination on the grid roads, with a ring of orbital routes which also run rectangular on the grid as well? The current network map doesn't see a grid of bus routes at all.

Because that’s highly unlikely to be commercially viable.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Don't direct bus routes (which run on the exact route as taxis) between the town centre and large residential estates attract passengers?
It's not quite a straightforward as that. Some areas have developed in different manners and at different speeds so they can't justify a direct bus and/or the service has to perform a number of roles. Car dependency was part of the original design of MK and so with wide open roads, little congestion, plenty of space to park your tin box both at your house and in town, that makes it very easy to have a car.
 

Bletchleyite

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Milton Keynes has a grid of fast flowing roads. However, it is also notorious as the most car-dependent town in England.

As Milton Keynes has a grid, why don't all bus routes run straight direct from the centre to the destination on the grid roads, with a ring of orbital routes which also run rectangular on the grid as well? The current network map doesn't see a grid of bus routes at all.

First of all this is the current map - notice just how sweeping the cuts have been now almost all subsidy has been moved to the (useless) MK Connect demand responsive scheme:


A few reasons in my book as a resident for the last 21 years (who never really uses buses these days):

First, and most importantly, Milton Keynes (MK) is and was constructed as the "city of the car" (and finally having city status can properly adopt that moniker). Car travel is very, very easy on wide open main roads most of which still carry National Speed Limit (60/70mph). Congestion is compared with other comparable places light and short-lived, with a 5 minute delay considered to be a long one. Thus, the mode of transport of choice is the car - if you have one, you will use it - and secondarily the taxi. Taxis are cheap because their main cost is the driver and journeys are very quick. Thus bus travel is a distress purchase, and it is incredibly difficult to make it otherwise. For instance from my house to the centre takes about 5-6 minutes, and it's always possible to park next to where you're going at very low cost - a bus simply can't compete with that.

The second mode of transport of choice, if you can't afford a car/taxi or can't drive for other reasons, is the bicycle. MK has a network of shared cycle paths not dissimilar to the Dutch model which means utility cycling works quite well, if a bit of effort because of the hills, notably where roads are crossed. Perfect for e-bikes and e-scooters, for what it's worth, and scooter trials are ongoing. Cycling is however lower than you'd think with the quality facilities, largely because of how easy driving is.

So where this leaves us is the bus being a mode of transport mostly used by people who have no other viable option - which means a very high proportion of passholders. The city was actually designed for solely grid road bus running, with "station" like infrastructure at underpasses (comparable to the various busways to an extent though with lower quality shelters), and in many locations you'll see from the map buses do run on the grid roads. However there are a few issues with this.

The original grid squares were all about 1km x 1km, which meant a walk of no more than 500m to a stop, with typically one by each roundabout on each leg and one in the middle. However, more recent grid squares were larger, with Furzton being the largest at about 1.5km across. This means that the "magic figure" of 500m maximum walk is breached. But the majority of users, being elderly/infirm etc, wouldn't be able to walk 500m+ and so this isn't an option. Add to that that the access paths to these "stations" tend to be overgrown and dark and so people perceive them to be unsafe. The crime stats don't actually bear this out - there is very little crime in underpasses - but it's how people feel, and if they don't feel safe they won't use the buses. (This also acts as a dissuader to cycling).

It has been suggested that buses should just run along the grid - e.g. a V1 bus, an H1 bus etc as they do in say Barcelona. The problem of course there is that only a few routes would have direct access to the centre, plus you've got the "skew" of needing to serve the old towns of Bletchley, Stony Stratford, Wolverton and Newport Pagnell. And while MK is distributed, it's nowhere near as distributed as a typical European large, sprawling city centre full of residential and business properties. Also, your outer buses would be non-viable - hardly anything along some of the outer grid roads like the V1 for example. Also, Barcelona's system is designed for connecting with the metro, which MK doesn't have.

FWIW one thing that was tried a while back (by now-long-gone Stansted Transit) was the idea of dedicating a bus to an estate or pair of estates and using it to run half-hourly around the estate then into the centre fast, and the same in reverse. This really didn't work - loadings from one estate were way too low to be viable - it was basically little more than a village bus, the kind that runs every other Thursday.

I think that probably sums it up? In short, the design of MK is not viable for commercial public transport, and so what services there are are making the best* of a bad situation.

* Noting that Arriva MK is a shoddy operation which probably does put people off by way of its lack of quality "feel"** and poor management - however that doesn't really impact substantially on the main problems.
** It would be very interesting indeed to see what effect on viability adopting an Alex Hornby style quality look-and-feel in MK would have - this isn't that costly, it just requires a bit of thought and an attitude shift. He has made big inroads into bus usage in Harrogate, about the poshest place in Yorkshire and one where you'd think people would just use one of their Range Rovers or Jags in preference.
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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He has made big inroads into bus usage in Harrogate, about the poshest place in Yorkshire and one where you'd think people would just use one of their Range Rovers or Jags in preference.
In making that comparison you are forgetting/ignoring a significant demographic factor: Harrogate has a higher than usual proportion of senior citizens meaning dependency on bus services is higher than you would expect. I have often heard the place referred to as "Crumbleville-next-the-Dales" or similar and while well to do people do retire to Harrogate in numbers there comes a time for many of them when driving is no longer possible. However I totally agree that the bus service in Harrogate shows just what is possible when the will exists to build in some quality. Sadly the national issue of driver shortages is affecting Harrogate too as I recently discovered.

More broadly we are fast approaching a possible point of no return in the provision of bus services in this country where lack of scheduled service combined with unreliability will destroy any possibility of commercial operation at least outwith the largest metropolitan centres. I would love to see Dutch style public transport here but we seem to be heading towards the US model.
 

BrianW

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Milton Keynes has a grid of fast flowing roads. However, it is also notorious as the most car-dependent town in England.

As Milton Keynes has a grid, why don't all bus routes run straight direct from the centre to the destination on the grid roads, with a ring of orbital routes which also run rectangular on the grid as well? The current network map doesn't see a grid of bus routes at all.
In short, I don't know- who does? I would imagine the original bus routes followed what were the desire lines that were expected by the original planners of MK. The first residents would have been younger than today's and perhaps/ probably more used to using buses in the areas of North London from which they came. Services would have developed and changed as usage changed and as new areas were built. Subsidies have come and gone too. Quite a lot to take into account.
My projection for the future is a network of (family-sized?) personal Starship EVs, directed by a central 'brain' that works out whether to go north (V) then east (H) or east then north according to traffic, rather like M40 and M5 or M42 and M6 around Birminham.
 

RT4038

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Don't direct bus routes (which run on the exact route as taxis) between the town centre and large residential estates attract passengers?
It's not quite a straightforward as that. Some areas have developed in different manners and at different speeds so they can't justify a direct bus and/or the service has to perform a number of roles. Car dependency was part of the original design of MK and so with wide open roads, little congestion, plenty of space to park your tin box both at your house and in town, that makes it very easy to have a car.
The large residential estates being of relative low density, the diffuse destinations required (much employment located away from the City Centre) coupled with high levels of car ownership and use, there are not enough potential passengers to operate a profitable direct bus service.
 

Bletchleyite

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The large residential estates being of relative low density, the diffuse destinations required (much employment located away from the City Centre) coupled with high levels of car ownership and use, there are not enough potential passengers to operate a profitable direct bus service.

Also there being no obvious radial routes. The grid is great for cars but awful for public transport. "Beads on a string" as per Runcorn is optimal but even a traditional radial town is better.
 

BrianW

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More broadly we are fast approaching a possible point of no return in the provision of bus services in this country where lack of scheduled service combined with unreliability will destroy any possibility of commercial operation at least outwith the largest metropolitan centres. I would love to see Dutch style public transport here but we seem to be heading towards the US model.
IIUC, Liz Truss is a fan of the USA: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/25/liz-truss-fan-united-states-00058728

Rishi Sunak the former Chancellor had (still has?) a 'Green card'.

Kwasi Kwarteng, the current (?) Chancellor attended Harvard University on a Kennedy Scholarship (according to his Wikipedia entry)

Her entry in Wikipedia describes Anne-Marie Trevellyan, the current Minister of Transport as 'An outspoken Eurosceptic'.

Again IIUC, Holland remains in the EU, so, putting two and two together I don't imagine the current government looking too much for inspiration from across the North Sea. Holland and Belgium have adopted the Woonerf principle of residential neighbourhhods where (again according to Wikipedia) Under Article 44 of the Dutch traffic code, motorised traffic in a woonerf or "recreation area" is restricted to walking pace.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not sure what people mean by the USA model, but I suspect most people here would be in favour of it in terms of local bus, it is none other than direct operation by local authorities or their equivalent of Passenger Transport Executives. Barring countries that basically don't have any laws and have matatus and the likes plying for hire as and when they feel like, there isn't any country with a more deregulated bus service than the UK.

Again IIUC, Holland remains in the EU, so, putting two and two together I don't imagine the current government looking too much for inspiration from across the North Sea. Holland and Belgium have adopted the Woonerf principle of residential neighbourhhods where (again according to Wikipedia) Under Article 44 of the Dutch traffic code, motorised traffic in a woonerf or "recreation area" is restricted to walking pace.

Milton Keynes probably has more potential for that than most places, with the grid roads being for fast traffic and within the grid squares local only. There are odd places where "rat running" is useful, but not many, as if you go into an estate when it's busy it's often hard to get back out again.
 

Purple Train

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I lived in Milton Keynes for a couple of years, and broadly agree with what @Bletchleyite was saying. The mode of transport MK was built for, and generally the desired mode to get into the city centre (or "town centre" as it was when I lived there!) was the car, which was very simple what with the grid system and also practically impossible to get completely lost in. If you couldn't or didn't use a car, the next best option was generally cycling, given the city is criss-crossed with generally well-tended cycle paths, and cycling into town was often far quicker than just waiting for a bus.
I did hear from one neighbour that apparently there were plans for a light rail system, but the density of roads (given the grid system) would have made that totally impractical (and making them on-street wouldn't really have worked either, given the reason MK is nicknamed the "fairground city"). Distilled into a sentence: MK was built for private transport, so a public transport system would have to be very well-tailored to the demographics that are most inclined to use them, hence the irregular pattern.
 

Bletchleyite

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I did hear from one neighbour that apparently there were plans for a light rail system, but the density of roads (given the grid system) would have made that totally impractical (and making them on-street wouldn't really have worked either, given the reason MK is nicknamed the "fairground city"). Distilled into a sentence: MK was built for private transport, so a public transport system would have to be very well-tailored to the demographics that are most inclined to use them, hence the irregular pattern.

There is a plan in the background for a bus rapid transit system which was sold as a tram with Wright Streetcar like vehicles; this would probably run on routes 4/5/6 (by far the busiest, basically linking up most of the rough estates) plus one of the ones running at 90 degrees to it (1, 2 or 8) - the map is above if you want context. However most people see through this and think it an utter waste of money; if throwing subsidy at buses in MK it'd be best to just make sure every estate has a genuinely good regular bus service before considering polishing something which is increasingly a turd.

There has also been a plan for an actual tram within the centre only but it's very unlikely to happen and again is rather a waste of money.
 

Purple Train

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There is a plan in the background for a bus rapid transit system which was sold as a tram with Wright Streetcar like vehicles; this would probably run on routes 4/5/6 (by far the busiest, basically linking up most of the rough estates) plus one of the ones running at 90 degrees to it (1, 2 or 8)
Are routes 4, 5, and 6 really the busiest? I must have been unlucky, then; my perceptions of the 5 and 6 (I never rode the 4) based on my experience with them was that they were being used for a "modern retelling" of the tale of the Marie Celeste...
There has also been a plan for an actual tram within the centre only but it's very unlikely to happen and again is rather a waste of money.
To be perfectly honest I'd rather walk :lol:
 

Bletchleyite

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Are routes 4, 5, and 6 really the busiest? I must have been unlucky, then; my perceptions of the 5 and 6 (I never rode the 4) based on my experience with them was that they were being used for a "modern retelling" of the tale of the Marie Celeste...

They are indeed. MK buses are never really *busy* - you may get standing passengers on the one on each route that departs the shopping centre at around 1730 but not otherwise. This if anything demonstrates the problem. Those are the routes that basically connect the rough estates that aren't right by the centre plus the more established areas where you'll get more passholders, in so much as MK really has rough estates, which is all natural bus territory.

For years MK was pretty much all Merc breadvans and Solos, and these were generally fine for the loadings. Arriva seems to prefer to send tatty old full-size buses over from other operations which means the buses are generally bigger than they need to be. We did get some new Sapphire spec vehicles for the 5/6 and these were shorter versions, though in line with the lack of attention to detail within Arriva MK they end up more or less anywhere. There was even a random double decker for a bit but it got sent away, possibly because the "random bus generator" couldn't use it as some routes have low bridges.

To be perfectly honest I'd rather walk :lol:

It's not an entirely unpleasant walk, but if too lazy to walk uphill there are existing buses and e-scooters, so there's really no need for it.
 

Purple Train

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We did get some new Sapphire spec vehicles for the 5/6 and these were shorter versions, though in line with the lack of attention to detail within Arriva MK they end up more or less anywhere.
I remember those. They looked really good (I moved away before I could travel on one) but it did take me aback when I saw them elsewhere and thought, "This isn't really on the 5 or the 6, is it?"
They are indeed. MK buses are never really *busy* - you may get standing passengers on the one on each route that departs the shopping centre at around 1730 but not otherwise.
The first time I ever got a bus in MK it was (I think) the 33/33A from Central station, going back home. Unwittingly I picked the one afternoon service a day that picks up students from St Paul's School, so I spent the entire journey crushed between students in hideous purple blazers (thank goodness I'm quite small!), and I distinctly remember saying to myself, "Next time I'll just take the train..."

But that was the only MK bus I ever saw that was standing room only.
 

Bletchleyite

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I remember those. They looked really good (I moved away before I could travel on one) but it did take me aback when I saw them elsewhere and thought, "This isn't really on the 5 or the 6, is it?"

I personally found them quite tacky and almost "chavvy", certainly not the sort of quality feel Stagecoach Gold has/had. On the other hand probably quite well suited to many of the clientelle on the 5/6!

It would be interesting to have a time machine to see how things might have been different had Stagecoach not been forced to sell their operation here due to competition law, or if Julian Peddle hadn't flogged up to Arriva. MK Metro was a bit rough round the edges but few wouldn't say it offered a better service than Arriva does now, though obviously costs have changed so they could easily have cut just as much.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I personally found them quite tacky and almost "chavvy", certainly not the sort of quality feel Stagecoach Gold has/had. On the other hand probably quite well suited to many of the clientelle on the 5/6!

It would be interesting to have a time machine to see how things might have been different had Stagecoach not been forced to sell their operation here due to competition law, or if Julian Peddle hadn't flogged up to Arriva. MK Metro was a bit rough round the edges but few wouldn't say it offered a better service than Arriva does now, though obviously costs have changed so they could easily have cut just as much.
Wolverton to Bletchley was always the best corridor and hence why it received new Wright Solars in the last days of MK Metro before sale; I think those replaced Darts. Those were the only main big bus services whilst everything else were Varios or Solos. So I can see why it attracted new fleet but why they thought it was appropriate for Sapphire standard, I have no idea!

As for what might've happened had Stagecoach or Peddle retained the ops? Certainly, if Stagecoach had've kept it, I think that service quality would have been immeasurably better.
 

Bletchleyite

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As for what might've happened had Stagecoach or Peddle retained the ops? Certainly, if Stagecoach had've kept it, I think that service quality would have been immeasurably better.

I'd imagine it would have looked similar to Stagecoach's "Bedford Bus" operation* which looks reasonable from the outside though I've not used it extensively.

* Was at least in part called BlueSolos for a bit, but this name ceased to make sense when the vehicles were replaced.
 

Bletchleyite

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Wolverton to Bletchley was always the best corridor and hence why it received new Wright Solars in the last days of MK Metro before sale; I think those replaced Darts. Those were the only main big bus services whilst everything else were Varios or Solos. So I can see why it attracted new fleet but why they thought it was appropriate for Sapphire standard, I have no idea!

The 5 always got the newest fleet - first of all the new Varios (the others being older Mercs with a massive variety of body types plus a few short Marshall Darts and other random junk), then the Solos (branded "Nice N Easy" if I recall), then the bigger stuff. Some short Wrights were introduced on the 4 just before Arriva came in, these were quite nice but not much bigger than Solos.

The 6 is a more recent innovation introduced when the 4 and 5 swapped branches. It used to be that the 4 was Stony-centre-Bletchley and the 5 Stony-Wolverton-centre-Bletchley, but then the 4 was sent to Wolverton and the 5/6 doing a "loop" via Stony/Wolverton with one in one direction and the other in the other.
 

ashkeba

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The city was actually designed for solely grid road bus running, with "station" like infrastructure at underpasses ... However, more recent grid squares were larger, with Furzton being the largest at about 1.5km across. This means that the "magic figure" of 500m maximum walk is breached. But the majority of users, being elderly/infirm etc, wouldn't be able to walk 500m+ and so this isn't an option. Add to that that the access paths to these "stations" tend to be overgrown and dark and so people perceive them to be unsafe.
Unlike the Cambridgeshire busway, the 'stations' have no cycle racks or scooter (hire or mobility) parking and you can't take most of them on a bus, so wheels cannot easily extend the service area beyond walking distance.

And I think some stops only have steps to them, but maybe the ramp path was merely overgrown when I saw them.

Grid running is not a terrible idea, maybe with some diverted through bigger district centres where it isn't too slow, but the (1970s?) "stations" would need upgrades that learn from more recent busways, and will anyone fund that?
 

Bletchleyite

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Unlike the Cambridgeshire busway, the 'stations' have no cycle racks or scooter (hire or mobility) parking and you can't take most of them on a bus, so wheels cannot easily extend the service area beyond walking distance.

Indeed not, though I'm not sure how many would want to do that given the shorter distances involved. Though a couple of Sheffield stands would be a cheap addition.

I doubt anyone would want to park a mobility scooter, they'd take it with them. Hire scooters in MK can be parked (almost*) anywhere.

* If I recall the Parks Trust** have banned parking them on any of their land, but they don't own any/many bus stops.
** Uniquely to MK, all the main parks are operated by an independent charitable trust a bit like a mini National Trust which is funded not from taxation but instead from having been given, at inception, a load of commercial property to lease out to gain an income. It works quite well and avoids political meddling.

And I think some stops only have steps to them, but maybe the ramp path was merely overgrown when I saw them.

I'm fairly sure they all have ramps but they aren't always obviously located. I certainly can't think of any that don't.

Grid running is not a terrible idea, maybe with some diverted through bigger district centres where it isn't too slow, but the (1970s?) "stations" would need upgrades that learn from more recent busways, and will anyone fund that?

I think what we have now is a long-established balance of grid and local road running based on which areas are too far from grid stops.
 

A0

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The original grid squares were all about 1km x 1km, which meant a walk of no more than 500m to a stop, with typically one by each roundabout on each leg and one in the middle. However, more recent grid squares were larger, with Furzton being the largest at about 1.5km across. This means that the "magic figure" of 500m maximum walk is breached. But the majority of users, being elderly/infirm etc, wouldn't be able to walk 500m+ and so this isn't an option. Add to that that the access paths to these "stations" tend to be overgrown and dark and so people perceive them to be unsafe. The crime stats don't actually bear this out - there is very little crime in underpasses - but it's how people feel, and if they don't feel safe they won't use the buses. (This also acts as a dissuader to cycling).

But if you look at places like Furzton what has also happened is sensibly sized local centres have also been part of the development, so where with the original design of MK you had to go to the centre for *everything* - including shopping that's now moved on a bit, so around Furzton you've got the Westcroft Centre, on the east /south east side Kingston has a good selection of shops which negates the need to go to the centre.

The only area which is a bit 'cut off' nowadays is the Linford / Giffard Park / Newport Pagnell area which only really has the shops which are left on Newport Pagnell high street a few convenience stores and the Lidl recently built by the M1 bridge.
 
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