Why is this ticket not valid on the 1040 Avanti

[Chucky]

My friend bought and off peak return from London Terminals to Birmingham Stations (via any permitted route) and was refused travel by barrier staff on the 1040 Avanti departure from Euston as they said his ticket is "not valid" on that service.

My understanding was off peak Avanti departures from Euston are between 0926 and 1501.

Please could someone explain why the ticket is not valid on the 1040 and which services it would be valid on?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Watershed]

It isn't valid on Avanti services because it is discounted using an Annual Gold Card. Avanti do not participate in the Annual Gold Card scheme and thus they do not accept Annual Gold Card discounted tickets. See this map which lists participating operators and valid routes.

An Annual Gold Card-discounted "Any Permitted" fare is pretty pointless to buy between Birmingham and London because of its lack of validity on Avanti. As a minimum you have to use Chiltern between Leamington and Banbury, or West Midlands Trains south of Coventry, and there are cheaper fares for travel on those operators ("via High Wycombe" and "LNR/WMR only", respectively).

In theory the fare might make sense to buy if you want the ability to travel via Reading into Paddington, but that's a pretty niche scenario and you would have to use Chiltern as far as Banbury anyway (as XC do not accept Annual Gold Card discounted tickets north of Banbury).

I would suggest claiming a refund either from the ticket office where the ticket was bought - looks to be Penge East, if I'm not mistaken - or from Southeastern's customer services if you don't want to return to the station. Then buy a new ticket for either Chiltern or WMT as desired, or a new undiscounted ticket if you want to use Avanti.

 

[Chucky]

It isn't valid on Avanti services because it is discounted using an Annual Gold Card. Avanti do not participate in the Annual Gold Card scheme and thus they do not accept Annual Gold Card discounted tickets. See this map which lists participating operators and valid routes.

An Annual Gold Card-discounted "Any Permitted" fare is pretty pointless to buy between Birmingham and London because of its lack of validity on Avanti. As a minimum you have to use Chiltern between Leamington and Banbury, or West Midlands Trains south of Coventry, and there are cheaper fares for travel on those operators ("via High Wycombe" and "LNR/WMR only", respectively).

In theory the fare might make sense to buy if you want the ability to travel via Reading into Paddington, but that's a pretty niche scenario and you would have to use Chiltern as far as Banbury anyway (as XC do not accept Annual Gold Card discounted tickets north of Banbury).

I would suggest claiming a refund either from the ticket office where the ticket was bought - looks to be Penge East, if I'm not mistaken - or from Southeastern's customer services if you don't want to return to the station. Then buy a new ticket for either Chiltern or WMT as desired, or a new undiscounted ticket if you want to use Avanti.

That makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up. He wasn't aware of the Gold Card discount issue when he bought the ticket, and the Avanti staff at Euston didn't make it clear that was the problem either.

 

[Rail Ranger]

You live and learn! It would have been helpful if the member of staff at Euston had advised the passenger to catch an LNwR train to Birmingham.

 

[47421]

13.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel say:

If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
13.1.1 any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;
13.1.2 by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown on your Ticket;
13.1.3 any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide’.

If not valid on Avanti should that not be stated on the face of the ticket?

 

[Haywain]

If not valid on Avanti should that not be stated on the face of the ticket?

No, as it is in the railcard T&Cs.

 

[redreni]

No, as it is in the railcard T&Cs.

Yeah, we've just had a big media storm about that, though, haven't we?

This is an easier scenario for the OP's friend to deal with given they were denied boarding. Had the issue arisen on board the Avanti train one assumes they would have been required to pay an excess fare of another £22 or so, though it certainly wouldn't have been a surprise if the guard attempted to charge for an entirely new ticket.

If the ticket office doesn't know the rule (and if they did then it's difficult to explain why this ticket was sold), on what basis should passengers be expected to?

 

[sprunt]

If the ticket office doesn't know the rule (and if they did then it's difficult to explain why this ticket was sold), on what basis should passengers be expected to?

May have been bought from a machine rather than a person. The last time I used the ticket office at Euston I didn't get a CCST.

 

[CyrusWuff]

May have been bought from a machine rather than a person. The last time I used the ticket office at Euston I didn't get a CCST.

Issuing location is 5072, which is Penge East. Looks to be a Ticket Office issue as SE have Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs, which use roll stock.

 

[OscarH]

Issuing location is 5072, which is Penge East. Looks to be a Ticket Office issue as SE have Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs, which use roll stock.

Also if it was TVM then it would have been issued by 5897 Penge East SST I believe

 

[redreni]

Moreover the application process for a Gold Card / Gold Record Card involves absolutely none of the signing the application form to say you've read and accepted the T&Cs that would be involved in buying a Railcard normally.

As a Gold Card holder you go to the ticket office, you ask for the ticket you want, you show your season ticket or Gold Record Card and, in this case, you are sold a ticket that has no TOC restrictions on it and says it's valid by any permitted route.

Maybe in theory the ticket office clerk tells you about the TOC restrictions, but that would not appear to have happened in this case as:
(a) the OP's friend got as far as Euston gateline and didn't know about them, and
(b) if the ticket office clerk had realised the ticket wouldn't be valid on Avanti, the obvious thing would have been to ask the passenger whether they wanted to travel via LNWR or Chiltern and offer them the appropriate TOC-restricted ticket depending on their answer (or offer them a non-discounted Any Permitted ticket if they said they wanted to use Avanti).

 

[RJ]

It's always a risk when buying at a ticket office for a journey on a distant part of the network that the clerk won't be aware of the rules in that area. If doing that, it's better to have some knowledge on what you're buying.

I'm pretty sure the Gold Card wasn't always valid from Euston to Birmingham - for the OP to have requested the discount on that journey, they must have had access to some information on where they can go with the discount so I don't really buy the argument that there was no information on the discount.

 

[infobleep]

It's always a risk when buying at a ticket office for a journey on a distant part of the network that the clerk won't be aware of the rules in that area. If doing that, it's better to have some knowledge on what you're buying.

I'm pretty sure the Gold Card wasn't always valid from Euston to Birmingham - for the OP to have requested the discount on that journey, they must have had access to some information on where they can go with the discount so I don't really buy the argument that there was no information on the discount.

Indeed it wasn't always valid. The area was expanded.

I do think staff need to explain the reasons rather than just saying no.

If someone doesn't understand why, they will disagree as it doesn't make sense om the face of it.

I experienced something similar in an airport scenario.

 

[BongoStar]

Can someone explain to me what would have happened if the passenger had boarded and this came up during ticket inspection?

I am assuming just an excess given the ticket was otherwise valid, but just not on this route - based on NRCOT 9.5.2.

 

[RJ]

Can someone explain to me what would have happened if the passenger had boarded and this came up during ticket inspection?

I am assuming just an excess given the ticket was otherwise valid, but just not on this route - based on NRCOT 9.5.2.

It is valid on that route, if using a West Midland Trains service.

It's pretty much as good as having no ticket if the TOC doesn't accept it at all, though I'm sure nobody would bat an eyelid if the discount was excessed away.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm pretty sure the Gold Card wasn't always valid from Euston to Birmingham - for the OP to have requested the discount on that journey, they must have had access to some information on where they can go with the discount so I don't really buy the argument that there was no information on the discount.

It was expanded in 2015. The current map can be viewed on this page on the National Rail site.

Can someone explain to me what would have happened if the passenger had boarded and this came up during ticket inspection?

I am assuming just an excess given the ticket was otherwise valid, but just not on this route - based on NRCOT 9.5.2.

Given the issue is the discount, rather than the route or ticket type, I'd guess that you'd be asked to buy a new ticket and obtain a refund for the original as Avanti aren't a Penalty Fare TOC and there's no entitlement to Excess away a Railcard discount. You might be lucky though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2024 ==

It is valid on that route, if using a West Midland Trains service.

Also from Marylebone on Chiltern of course, being a direct train. (Though that's not much help if you're at Euston, admittedly.)

 

[furlong]

Can someone explain to me what would have happened if the passenger had boarded and this came up during ticket inspection?

The ticket should have been accepted on the basis that the most likely explanation was an error at the ticket office inadvertently making it valid for the journey. The issuing error could have been noted to be taken up with SouthEastern.

If such a ticket had been sold correctly, the ticket office would have endorsed it to indicate they had explained the situation to the passenger and they had still chosen to buy it despite it not being a sensible ticket for a normal traveller to choose.

 

[RJ]

The ticket should have been accepted on the basis that the most likely explanation was an error at the ticket office inadvertently making it valid for the journey. The issuing error could have been noted to be taken up with SouthEastern.

If such a ticket had been sold correctly, the ticket office would have endorsed it to indicate they had explained the situation to the passenger and they had still chosen to buy it despite it not being a sensible ticket for a normal traveller to choose.

There’s no way of knowing what conversation was had or what exactly was requested.

The ticket shouldn’t have been sold as there are cheaper route restricted options, but it was still usable and if all the passenger did was ask for a return from London to Birmingham with the discount then they did what was asked of them.

 

[AlterEgo]

The most likely thing to have happened seems to me that the customer had requested this ticket with an Annual Gold Card discount, and that is what was sold to them.

 

[redreni]

There’s no way of knowing what conversation was had or what exactly was requested.

The ticket shouldn’t have been sold as there are cheaper route restricted options, but it was still usable and if all the passenger did was ask for a return from London to Birmingham with the discount then they did what was asked of them.

Of course, I'm sure nobody is trying to get the ticket office clerks at Penge East into trouble or criticise them unduly, it's just that normally if you try to use your Gold Card where it isn't valid the issue will become apparent when you try to buy the ticket. If it doesn't and it only comes to light when you're travelling, 47421's question becomes pertinent: is it acceptable for the ticket not to have any TOC restrictions on it when it has TOC restrictions by dint of being discounted using a Railcard?

This is a similar question to the one we've had recently concerning whether it is acceptable for a ticket to say it is valid at any time when it is not valid before 10am by dint of being discounted using a Railcard.

I do not agree with Haywain's answer that this is unnecessary because it's in the Railcard T&Cs. I don't think I would agree even if the customer had been required at the time of purchasing the Railcard to confirm that they had read and understood the T&Cs, but since with this particular Railcard type that doesn't happen...

 

[furlong]

The ticket shouldn’t have been sold as there are cheaper route restricted options, but it was still usable and if all the passenger did was ask for a return from London to Birmingham with the discount then they did what was asked of them.

Recall this:

12.The Train Company or Companies You May Travel With
12.1Some Tickets require you to travel on a specific train service or services, or the services of a particular Train Company or Companies. This will be made clear to you when you purchase your Ticket.
12.2Otherwise, you are allowed to make your journey on the services of any Train Company covering the journey you are making on the date(s) and by the route(s) on which your Ticket is valid.

It should have been endorsed 'Not valid on Avanti', or as a minimum, stamped 'Restrictions Advised' indicating that that same information was provided verbally. Without that, you're left with the conclusion that it was likely to be a case of misselling and contractually valid on Avanti. (Just because the computer hasn't been programmed correctly to print the required restriction information on the ticket, doesn't let the ticket office off the hook for not explaining this and making it clear that it has done so.)

 

[JonathanH]

I do not agree with Haywain's answer that this is unnecessary because it's in the Railcard T&Cs. I don't think I would agree even if the customer had been required at the time of purchasing the Railcard to confirm that they had read and understood the T&Cs, but since with this particular Railcard type that doesn't happen...

I'm a bit confused as to what you think is acceptable for the owner of the Railcard to know about the T&Cs and what needs to be spelt out on the face of the ticket.

Is the 0930 restriction an example of something the owner of a Gold Card should know, and the Avanti restriction something they have to be advised on the ticket?

Is the whole railcard system going to come tumbling down because no one reads and absorbs the terms and conditions? There seems to be a view being expressed on this forum that a railcard should not reduce the validity of any ticket bought with it relative to a ticket bought without discount.

 

[AlterEgo]

There seems to be a view being expressed on this forum that a railcard should not reduce the validity of any ticket bought with it relative to a ticket bought without discount.

I think there is some overrun with the "not valid before 10am" cases. In those cases,

- The ticket clearly says Anytime, yet was time restricted
- and the company did not honour its contractual obligation to allow the customer to pay the excess

I think in this case, spelling out every single restriction applying to the ticket the OP's friend bought would be completely unrealistic. Nonetheless, it is bizarre that the ticket claims to be valid via any permitted route, when clearly in practice it is not.

 

[redreni]

I'm a bit confused as to what you think is acceptable for the owner of the Railcard to know about the T&Cs and what needs to be spelt out on the face of the ticket.

Is the 0930 restriction an example of something the owner of a Gold Card should know, and the Avanti restriction something they have to be advised on the ticket?

Is the whole railcard system going to come tumbling down because no one reads and absorbs the terms and conditions? There seems to be a view being expressed on this forum that a railcard should not reduce the validity of any ticket bought with it relative to a ticket bought without discount.

I hope not.

There isn't anything I expect the customer to know that ticket office clerks obviously don't always know. Sorry if that's controversial, but it seems like common sense to me.

 

[ianBR]

Yet more evidence of how broken and confusing the current system is.

People should not be expected to remember the Ts and Cs of something they bought 9 months ago it should be clear when you buy a ticket

And the fact that ticket office staff get things wrong themselves just proves how the whole thing needs overhauling to be user friendly

 

[RJ]

Yet more evidence of how broken and confusing the current system is.

People should not be expected to remember the Ts and Cs of something they bought 9 months ago it should be clear when you buy a ticket

If that’s the case then it’s probably better either book online and not depart from the itinerary given, simplify things by not using the discount, or actively ask for the relevant information when buying the ticket.

In the ticket office the default assumption is people understand what their discount entitles them to, but if there are any questions or even the slightest sign of that not being case then relevant information is offered.

 

[30907]

The ticket shouldn’t have been sold as there are cheaper route restricted options, but it was still usable and if all the passenger did was ask for a return from London to Birmingham with the discount then they did what was asked of them.

And it is the only ticket AFAIK that would allow the traveller the choice of LNR and Chiltern (and presumably XC/GW too).

 

[JonathanH]

And it is the only ticket AFAIK that would allow the traveller the choice of LNR and Chiltern (and presumably XC/GW too).

XC only valid south of Banbury with Gold Card discount just to add to the restrictions.

 

[tspaul26]

Nonetheless, it is bizarre that the ticket claims to be valid via any permitted route, when clearly in practice it is not.

Which specific permitted route in the Routeing Guide for this flow do you allege would not be allowed “in practice”?

 

[sheff1]

NRCoT 2.3 states:

When purchasing your Ticket, we will make available information on specific restrictions that apply to your Ticket (for instance the train services on which you can use your Ticket or the route(s) you are entitled to use) and, where possible, any known changes to planned services.

It would appear either (i) the obligitary information was not made available when purchasing the ticket at Penge East or (ii) the staff there did meet their obligations under the NRCoT but the passenger either ignored or did not fully understand the information.