WiFi on CrossCountry Trains

[RensterUK]

Hi All,

I recently emailed Andy Cooper (MD of XC trains) to highlight my frustration at how FGW seem to be able to offer WiFi free of charge, yet XC do not. I also mentioned how XC's response to a similar comment I made on their SMS feedback service was along the lines of "we do not feel customers who do not use this service should subsidise those that do".

I'll not bore you all with my original email to Mr Cooper, or his entire response, but to quote:

"Thank you for your e-mail and your thoughts on our WiFi service. Since I am a regular user of the WiFi service on both CrossCountry and First Great Western Trains, I am fairly well placed to understand the quality of both systems. CrossCountry’s system in my experience significantly more reliable that the FGW system which rarely connects or if it does, holds the signal. Currently all power supplies on their HSTs are disconnected so there is no power for laptop use or charging adding to the fun. Their system is 3G and so has many limitations. Your experience may be different but my views are also the experience of many other fellow travellers."

So if their system isn't 3G based, what is it? I can only assume satellite - but that seems somewhat unlikely? Also, would anyone else disagree with his assertion regarding FGW's HSTs currently not offering power? I would most certainly disagree with his assertion regarding FGW's connectivity - I always connect just fine - and remain connected even in tunnels!?

He continued...

"Picking up one or two of the points you make. Yes the investment in our WiFi service has been made but we have to service that investment and produce a return. It wasn’t a free good! As you guessed, there is a data volume charge, so charges increase with the popularity of the service"

Am I missing something - but surely kit that has already been paid for doesn't need to be charged for in an ongoing manner? And as for "charges increase with the popularity" - well increased popularity suggests a likely increase in fare paying passengers also, to contribute to the data cost?

He finished....

"I suggest we offer a generally good service at an attractive price. That people buy the service in great numbers rather than just rely on their own mobile package (boosted on our Voyager trains on several networks, free of charge) suggests we may have got it right."

Does anyone agree with his view? Oh, and I'm with GiffGaff (technically on O2's network). Rather than being boosted, if anything I find my signal drops when onboard an XC voyager train - the idea of a signal between Bristol Parkway and Birmingham is borderline laughable?

I also wonder what he makes of David Cameron's assertion that train companies should be offering free on board WiFi by 2017?

 

[AngusH]

Satellite is possible, also they might use 4g/LTE networks when available.
Satellite latency is poor though and LTE suffers from poor coverage area.

I recall from somewhere (but can't find a link) that they might also be using multiple mobile network connections to different mobile network operators, which could improve coverage area and performance. That is probably a bigger win than anything else.

Charging for wifi does seem excessively mean when even local bus companies now provide free wifi.

 

[Bantamzen]

Whilst having free WiFi is certainly nice, we have to remember that companies do have to pay for the equipement and coverage. And it will not be cheap. Now they can choose to cover the costs via current ticketing, advertising, or directly. And as more and more people chew more and more data via free networks, providers are going to be faced with ever increasing costs. And so in time companies will have to make the decision to take the hit or start network charges to customers. XC may have jumped ship, but they won't be alone for too long. I expect over the coming years to see more and more free services everywhere starting to fall by the wayside.

 

[mbreckers]

Also, XC probably do not own the equipment themselves and just lease it from a company that provides it, probably Icomera or Nomad. Thats a big ongoing cost right there

 

[route:oxford]

Hi All,

I recently emailed Andy Cooper (MD of XC trains) to highlight my frustration at how FGW seem to be able to offer WiFi free of charge, yet XC do not. I also mentioned how XC's response to a similar comment I made on their SMS feedback service was along the lines of "we do not feel customers who do not use this service should subsidise those that do".

The answer to that is to simply buy more data direct from your mobile supplier.

With the increasing number of fake WiFi connections set up to sniff out private data, I'm reluctant to use public WiFi these days.

 

[bnm]

He's also lying about the sockets in FGW's HSTs being disconnected.

That's only true of refurbished 1st Class vehicles.

 

[DMU180]

Personally I think his response to you is extremely unprofessional and I'm sure Mark Hopwood at First Great Western would be interested to see it. I have used XC and FGW WiFi, I've never had a problem with FGW but I've had to call the XC support number twice out of about 10 times which isn't great. Also the power sockets do indeed work on FGW HST's so I feel his comment is completely unjustified. I'd say he has fobbed you off there good and proper. Based on my interactions with XC management I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I can throw them.

 

[BantamMenace]

As far as his comments about many people purchasing the wifi so 'they must have got it right':

Personally i never purchase wifi anywhere and prefer to struggle on my 3g and 4g when the wifi isnt free. The only time i do purchase it is when travelling on business and i can claim it on expenses. With XC covering such a large network and connecting many key cities i suppose the level of business travel must be quite high so i think the vast majority of people buying wifi from XC will be claiming it through their expenses.

 

[Kite159]

Although if XC Wi-Fi was free, how badly would it be affected with a lot more users connecting?

(I think that is the excuse I've heard from Virgin (West Coast) why they charge for Wi-Fi in standard because it won't cope if it was free for all)

 

[RensterUK]

routexford .... I'm happy to use my data bundle... get more than enough for my purposes anyway - just frustrates me that a) on the XC route, I get no signal, and b) His answer was basically "we don't care if other people provide WiFi free, we're gonna justify the charges no matter what"

dmu180 .... I don't think there's a single word of your comment I'd disagree with

BantamMenace .... Indeed. I do wonder, if the franchising of our railways was done on a timetable basis, rather than line things might be different. Ie, if all operators could run trains on all routes - if people had a choice of taking an XC train Bristol to Bham, or getting an FGW 10 mins later.... would XC offer WiFi free in that situation!?!?

Kite159 .... A possibly valid argument - but FGW don't seem to have that problem

bnm .... I suspected that was a lie. I was on an FGW last thurs - when I got off the train my phone's battery was healthier than when I got on...

BantamZen .... But doesn't our esteemed PM want free wifi on all trains by 2017?

Angush .... As I recall my original mail to him mentioned buses providing free wifi. Oddly he chose not to acknowledge that. Now I appreciate buses operate in town, where mobile coverage is better anyway.... but bus tickets also tend to cost a lot less than an XC rail ticket!

 

[mbreckers]

can we see screenshots of both email you sent and the reply? (with obviously personal information blacked out)

 

[Bantamzen]

BantamZen .... But doesn't our esteemed PM want free wifi on all trains by 2017?

Indeed he does, but he also wanted "super-fast" broadband in every home in the UK. The problem with both is that somewhere, someone has to pay for it. And as there are no funds available from central or local government, then it's down to either the providers or the customers to pay for it. Now which side do you imagine the bill will eventually fall down to?

Let's be realistic here, on a 5 car 221 you can have up to 250 people seated (and that's not counting any standing). Look around any XC service and see how many people are staring at a mobile device. All these people potentially would use the WiFi for at least some of the journey, many for most. And given that many people will be using applications such as Facebook, YouTube, even BBC news where the content load can be quite high. So quickly each of these people could potentially use up 10s of MBs in a fairly short space of time. Now consider that required bandwidth across XC's fleet for anything up to 12-16 hours a day. You would be talking in terms on 100s of GBs, probably into TBs. And that figure will be rising daily. It isn't going to be a cheap exercise to say the least, although generally coverage costs are falling they will not be falling as fast as demand is rising.

I've just recently started commuting between my home in Baildon to Leeds, having previously commuted to Bradford. On my old commutes, connecting to Northern's WiFi on their 333/321/322s was quick, easy and kept a solid connection. But this was only because the trains were rarely even half full. The only time you would notice a drop out would be around the school travel times at Frizinghall where as soon as they would board on their way home, the WiFi would almost always drop straight off.

Now, traveling as I do on the service into Leeds it's hardly worth even trying to connect because with the units usually full to overflowing, and many of them using mobile devices, the WiFi usually gets swamped. It is probably only a matter of time before either download caps are applied (and I think Northern probably do already, as I'm sure I've seen a message stating that the max is 20MB), or charges for use might be applied on their trains too.

 

[Pigeon]

Also, XC probably do not own the equipment themselves and just lease it from a company that provides it, probably Icomera or Nomad. Thats a big ongoing cost right there

Nomad, according to XC's website.

 

[Goatboy]

The biggest issue here is that if you are on an XC Voyager on certain mobile networks, the interior of the train is a coverage black zone. 2 hours on a Voyager for me is two hours with zero internet access unless I pay the daft amount of money XC wants.

Whereas I never even felt the need for wifi on FGW as the same problem on the same routes doesn't exist.

Which makes it all the more ironic that I now have free Wifi I don't really need anyway on an FGW HST yet on a Voyager.. nothing.

 

[RensterUK]

The biggest issue here is that if you are on an XC Voyager on certain mobile networks, the interior of the train is a coverage black zone. 2 hours on a Voyager for me is two hours with zero internet access unless I pay the daft amount of money XC wants.

Whereas I never even felt the need for wifi on FGW as the same problem on the same routes doesn't exist.

Which makes it all the more ironic that I now have free Wifi I don't really need anyway on an FGW HST yet on a Voyager.. nothing.

I had heard arguments either way regarding shielding on the Voyagers - I was wondering if I was alone in finding them a coverage black hole... Seems I wasn't! Totally agree on the irony of it all....

 

[RensterUK]

can we see screenshots of both email you sent and the reply? (with obviously personal information blacked out)

Hopefully the attached (1.jpg - 4.jpg in order of email exchange) are ok!

 

[Minilad]

Did you also email the MD's of the other TOCs that charge for wi-fi in standard. Or is this just another anti XC rant for the sake of it

 

[DMU180]

Did you also email the MD's of the other TOCs that charge for wi-fi in standard. Or is this just another anti XC rant for the sake of it

This is obviously based on experience, if you read RensterUK's post then you'd see he travels around Bristol and Swindon where FGW and XC are the primary operators. If my train is delayed from Glasgow to Carlisle with Virgin and I complain I wouldn't complain to every other train company with a delayed train so I feel that your argument is floored.

 

[JaJaWa]

Is that how Virgin Trains East Coast are also getting around their free WiFi commitment? 15 minutes free...

 

[RensterUK]

Is that how Virgin Trains East Coast are also getting around their free WiFi commitment? 15 minutes free...

I suspect it may well be. I was tempted to reply to Andy Cooper to suggest that they could offer something akin to FGW's inferior system free, while continuing to charge for their superior service...

Perhaps I should stop picking on poor little old XC for no apparent reason, and just be more British - and not complain at all....

 

[Goatboy]

Whether he has a point or not that is a spectacularly unprofessional email for something sent in an official capacity. What a strange reply.