Will the c2c name remain beyond July?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m curious. If the DfT can’t be bothered to rename services taken in house as GBR until later down the line, eg SWR remains SWR, etc., I wonder what will happen when c2c is taken in house in July? SWR is clear and obvious, but c2c is VERY commercial and kind of meaningless.

Do you think the OLR will simply acquire the rights to the name from Trenitalia (who bought them from National Express in 2017, of course), or do you reckon we’ll see them rebranded as something like Essex Thameside, like how Virgin Trains East Coast became LNER. I suppose the main thing is that although c2c isn’t a generic or meaningful name, it’s not a world-famous private brand like Virgin, so there may be less of a push to replace it if it will eventually be GBR by 2027.

 

[stadler]

I’m curious. If the DfT can’t be bothered to rename services taken in house as GBR until later down the line, eg SWR remains SWR, etc., I wonder what will happen when c2c is taken in house in July? SWR is clear and obvious, but c2c is VERY commercial and kind of meaningless.

Do you think the OLR will simply acquire the rights to the name from Trenitalia (who bought them from National Express in 2017, of course), or do you reckon we’ll see them rebranded as something like Essex Thameside, like how Virgin Trains East Coast became LNER. I suppose the main thing is that although c2c isn’t a generic or meaningful name, it’s not a world-famous private brand like Virgin, so there may be less of a push to replace it if it will eventually be GBR by 2027.

I think that C2C will probably be kept. It is a generic name without any company mentioned. I doubt they would spend money on changing the name. They seem to prefer keeping the same names. VTEC of course had to be changed as it had "Virgin" in it but C2C does not have the issue. I think the only change people will notice is the Trenitalia logos removed from the trains.

 

[ScottGallagher]

It's a difficult one that, I guess it will get a stay of execution. Back in 2000 when Prism Rail decided that LTS Rail became C2C the idea was mocked an awful lot in the Railway Press and elsewhere as stupid but 25 years on nearly everyone in that area will associate C2C with trains.

 

[SynthD]

I think all the brands will be treated as genericized trademarks, where the public are used to them and the new owners can’t be bothered to change it.

Diamond Geezer has collected a list of the DfT holding companies in today's post. http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2025/05/rail-renationalisation-lists.html
This suggests that the name C2C will stay, but Avanti and EMR won't.

DFT Holding Companies
DFT OLR1 LIMITED: now LONDON NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY
DFT OLR2 LIMITED: now SE TRAINS LIMITED
DFT OLR3 LIMITED: now NORTHERN TRAINS LIMITED
DFT OLR4 LIMITED: now GREATER WESTERN RAILWAY LIMITED
DFT OLR5 LIMITED: now SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY LIMITED
DFT OLR6 LIMITED: now CROSS COUNTRY RAIL LIMITED
DFT OLR7 LIMITED: now C2C RAILWAY LIMITED
DFT OLR8 LIMITED: now RAILWAY WEST COAST LIMITED
DFT OLR9 LIMITED: now GA TRAINS LIMITED
DFT OLR10 LIMITED: now TRANSPENNINE TRAINS LIMITED
DFT OLR11 LIMITED: now CHILTERN RAIL LIMITED
DFT OLR12 LIMITED: now WM TRAINS LIMITED
DFT OLR13 LIMITED: now MIDLANDS EAST TRAINS LIMITED
DFT OLR14 LIMITED: now THAMESLINK SOUTHERN GREAT NORTHERN LIMITED

 

[Harpo]

This suggests that the name C2C will stay, but Avanti and EMR won't.

C2C being a longstanding route name unlike Avanti & EMR.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I think all the brands will be treated as genericized trademarks, where the public are used to them and the new owners can’t be bothered to change it.

Diamond Geezer has collected a list of the DfT holding companies in today's post. http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2025/05/rail-renationalisation-lists.html
This suggests that the name C2C will stay, but Avanti and EMR won't.

Oh I think the EMR name will remain as legal company names can be different to the trading names as "Southeastern" is displayed as it is not "SE Trains".

Not sure about Avanti, if it is anything like VTEC as Trenitalia may own full rights to the brand etc then it'll have to be renamed temporarily as "West Coast" until GBR is fully formed. If not, then the AWC name will remain for now.

Let's not get too excited here, all the usual TOC names will remain until GBR is consolidated in the coming years. Sorry and too bad if you were expecting an instant change overnight.

 

[vuzzeho]

Didn't they say it'll all be renamed when they 'deserve' it? I feel like it would be strange to say that and then do nothing branding-wise until 2027. Also, why is EMR's replacement holding company called Midlands East Trains?

 

[Sorcerer]

This suggests that the name C2C will stay, but Avanti and EMR won't.

Not sure about Avanti, if it is anything like VTEC as Trenitalia may own full rights to the brand etc then it'll have to be renamed temporarily as "West Coast" until GBR is fully formed. If not, then the AWC name will remain for now.

Avanti probably won't remain as a brand name for a number of reasons. It's an Italian word and so it's likely Trenitalia will have some ownership along with FirstGroup, and even if they don't the name might be too tarnished by previous controversies that, in all fairness, some of which they weren't entirely at fault for. But the National Rail Contract could also potentially last up to 2032, though the core term was only three years, so I suspect Labour will want to bring it back in-house as soon as possible. Maybe even keep it going slightly longer to coincide with the beginning of the Great British Railways brand in 2027?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Didn't they say it'll all be renamed when they 'deserve' it? I feel like it would be strange to say that and then do nothing branding-wise until 2027. Also, why is EMR's replacement holding company called Midlands East Trains?

Probably someone else already has the legal rights to "East Midlands Trains Limited" thus not available to use (Stagecoach?) or some DfT civil servant got sloppy just took that name? It does not really matter as it still be EMR written on the trains and tickets etc.

Avanti probably won't remain as a brand name for a number of reasons. It's an Italian word and so it's likely Trenitalia will have some ownership along with FirstGroup, and even if they don't the name might be too tarnished by previous controversies that, in all fairness, some of which they weren't entirely at fault for. But the National Rail Contract could also potentially last up to 2032, though the core term was only three years, so I suspect Labour will want to bring it back in-house as soon as possible. Maybe even keep it going slightly longer to coincide with the beginning of the Great British Railways brand in 2027?

Probably partly the reason AWC is said to be one of the last TOCs to be nationalised no matter how terrible they are (you'd think they'd be taken back before SWR!). Then it'll be likely straight to an unified GBR brand or a new GBR intercity sector brand with no interim name in between.

 

[vuzzeho]

Probably partly the reason AWC is said to be one of the last TOCs to be nationalised no matter how terrible they are (you'd think they'd be taken back before SWR!). Then it'll be likely straight to an unified GBR brand or a new GBR intercity sector brand with no interim name in between.

Avanti can't be nationalised until 18th October 2026. That's when their core term expires.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Some of those OLR names are a mess aren't they!

Along the lines of LNER, I'd be very happy to see London Tilbury and Southend Railway LTSR and dare I say it, the London Midland and Scottish Railway LMSR as opposed to Railway West Coast.

 

[bramling]

Some of those OLR names are a mess aren't they!

Along the lines of LNER, I'd be very happy to see London Tilbury and Southend Railway LTSR and dare I say it, the London Midland and Scottish Railway LMSR as opposed to Railway West Coast.

Whilst I suspect c2c will survive, it’s one of those brands which one would expect to eventually go stale. It’s surprising it’s remained as long as it has really.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Some of those OLR names are a mess aren't they!

Along the lines of LNER, I'd be very happy to see London Tilbury and Southend Railway LTSR and dare I say it, the London Midland and Scottish Railway LMSR as opposed to Railway West Coast.

Errr please tell me ‘Railway West Coast’ is not a real name?

 

[Stephen42]

Errr please tell me ‘Railway West Coast’ is not a real name?

It's the legal company name, that one may be to avoid confusion with West Coast Railways Company Limited. Similar East Midlands Trains Limited was being used by the Stagecoach venture so also reordered for the Dft Operator name. The ones I've looked at were renamed at companies house in 2021 or earlier so these names aren't new and won't be a reliable indication of what the companies will trade as.

 

[sad1e]

It's the legal company name, that one may be to avoid confusion with West Coast Railways Company Limited. Similar East Midlands Trains Limited was being used by the Stagecoach venture so also reordered for the Dft Operator name. The ones I've looked at were renamed at companies house in 2021 or earlier so these names aren't new and won't be a reliable indication of what the companies will trade as.

Wasn't midland mainline the dft name for the east midlands franchise or am I confusing this with something else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasn't midland mainline the dft name for the east midlands franchise or am I confusing this with something else.

Midland Mainline was the name of the first privatised TOC to operate on, er, the Midland Mainline.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Midland Mainline was the name of the first privatised TOC to operate on, er, the Midland Mainline.

"Midland Mainline" may have been an interim DfT name to begin with when in between BR (Intercity) and privatisation (National Express) that National Express retained the name once privitatised? Same as SWT with Stagecoach.

Other interim names introduced by DfT were short-lived upon privatisation such as "Network SouthCentral" which became Connex and "Great Western Trains" became FGW etc.

This is what I believe the TOCs are now in a way interim names once taken on by DFTO until the final ever TOC is nationalised. Sort of like the opposite of what happend in the mid-90s however towards nationalisation.

 

[43096]

"Midland Mainline" may have been an interim DfT name to begin with when in between BR (Intercity) and privatisation (National Express) that National Express retained the name once privitatised? Same as SWT with Stagecoach.

Other interim names introduced by DfT were short-lived upon privatisation such as "Network SouthCentral" which became Connex and "Great Western Trains" became FGW etc.

Great Western Trains became Great Western Trains on privatisation. It was only when First Group bought out the other investors in Great Western Holdings that it became FGW.