Wrexham,VT & ATW spoiling tactics

[merlodlliw]

A Local Assembley member asked this question yesterday in the Welsh Assembley Government Chamber.

Mark Isherwood: Further to concerns that the Holyhead-Cardiff express will not—at least for now—call at Wrexham and the rejection of the request by Wrexham County Borough Council to have its alternative proposal considered, how do you respond to proposals by Virgin Trains to introduce a Shrewsbury-London service and by Arriva Trains Wales to introduce an Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury-London service and concerns that they are a direct threat to the future of the Wrexham and Shropshire service, and hence the jobs of the 45 employees at Wrexham general station?

The First Minister: This is the difficulty with franchise services. You negotiate a franchise and its place on the network with the Department for Transport and Network Rail, but someone else can come along and say, 'I think that we could compete with them’. It is not like open competition, as happens in a normal business, because they must be given an access agreement from Network Rail to get on to the system and to agree that that is when they will travel. I understand that the Wrexham-London service is engaged in trying to adjust to the recession; that is the latest news. Whether it is worried by competition or the recession, or a combination of both, I am not sure. I will ask Ieuan Wyn Jones to look into the particular points that you have raised about two potential further services running along that corridor to see whether they are feasible, or whether they may be the sort of spoiling tactics that you normally get in the area of regulated transport.

As VT can only use Wrexham by ATW giving up yet more paths, more
questions will be asked about ATW antics, ATW & VT did not give a dam for
services from Wrexham or Shrewsbury before Wrexham & Shropshire
started the London service,

Bob

 

[anthony263]

it will be interesting to hear what the assembly has to say about this when i got to the unveling of the wales national rail strategy next tuesday.

 

[merlodlliw]

It will be very interesting, up to now Ieuan the Minister as avoided all
responce about this spoiler subject, hopefully his Boss Rhrodri will now
push him.

We all wonder up here in the North East of Wales, Who controls the All Wales Franchise, WAG or Virgin, because ATW seem to jump when VT say jump.

Also on the North Wales Rail website, The WAG express left Cardiff last
week with a record three in first class, I think it was Tuesday.
So thats one staff for each passenger in 1st. Subsidy per day £7,600
for this semi fast, which is now seen as a semi fast commuter between Crewe and Holyhead.


Bob

 

[anthony263]

i think it would be better if they also added a second diagram, i might use it then.

 

[The Planner]

The WAG are only interested in that happening if it goes via Wrexham, and seeing as the first one cant, then it aint going to happen !!

 

[Techniquest]

Not worth the hassle IMO, and it's one of the most useless services on the ATW network since it doesn't call at Hereford, the biggest interchange point between Shrewsbury and Newport.

Shove a call in there each way and you might suddenly notice a lot more passengers using it. Sadly I can't see it happening with the current service running near enough empty all of the time.

Oh well.

I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen with this now too, it could easily turn into an epic farce in North Wales.

 

[tbtc]

Not worth the hassle IMO, and it's one of the most useless services on the ATW network since it doesn't call at Hereford, the biggest interchange point between Shrewsbury and Newport.

Shove a call in there each way and you might suddenly notice a lot more passengers using it

That's the problem when politicians start to meddle with train services.

There's minimal need for trains from Cardiff to Holyhead (other than to get Assembley Members back home, and to win votes). The natural flow from on both of these routes would be to North West England (e.g. doubling the Cardiff to Manchester service, running a service from Liverpool to Llandudno).

However, what we've got is something that suits politicians rather than passengers.

Running these services without stopping at a fair sized English town (and interchange) like Hereford just shows how "political" this service is - waste of time (and Welsh taxpayers money).

 

[voyagerdude220]

The WAG express left Cardiff last
week with a record three in first class, I think it was Tuesday.
Bob

Does anyone know how much the supplements are for First Class on the WAG express?

I find it annoying that i've found it very difficult to obtain this info through ticket sites/Arriva's website etc.

If it helps, because of the timing of the trains, i'd probably be travelling between Crewe and Newport/Cardiff, although would probably only use it one way, for flexibility around a day trip.

Thank you

 

[First class]

PCU - ATW PREM UPGRDE
00044 - ARRIVA TRN WALES
Non-standard discounts apply
1 Adult @£ 50.00 = £ 50.00
__________
£ 50.00

First Class Single

 

[voyagerdude220]

Many thanks stethomson90, i've found that fare code in my copy of the Avantix software, and find it very useful

Having said that, i would probably find the AP singles more attractive, if the availability of the FC fares are quite high.

 

[merlodlliw]

PCU - ATW PREM UPGRDE
00044 - ARRIVA TRN WALES
Non-standard discounts apply
1 Adult @£ 50.00 = £ 50.00
__________
£ 50.00

First Class Single

This is of course a suppliment to the standard class fare, ATW leaflet gives the 1st Class fare return at £168 Holy/Cardiff/& Rtn.

A traveller was charged £35 to upgrade from Newport to Crewe, this was overheard by a traveller, see this from the North Wales Rail site below

Had the chance to sample the much talked about Arriva Trains Wales service "Y Gerallt Gymro" the other day. The train was platformed in Platform 1 at Cardiff Central (above) a good ten minutes ahead of time. When the service began, the train was topped and tailed by a class 57 on each end, but it recent times has been hauled by just one loco, on this occasion 57 314.

I travelled in First Class, the Mk3 (ex-WCML restaurant/buffet First) had just three other passengers. One more joined at Newport who paid to upgrade, I overheard £35 being mentioned as the excess Standard to First as far as Crewe.

Even before we pulled out of Cardiff complimentary tea and coffee were served by the hostess. Two other catering staff were working, one chef and another serving at the buffet counter. Our orders for dinner were taken for dinner after we left Abergavenny.

Food was exceptionally good: for starters I had carrot & coriander soup (paté was the other option). For the main course, cod in white wine sauce with sauté potatoes, carrots and mange tout. Pork with the same veg was the other option and I am sure a veggie option would have been available. Finally, I had apple tart and ice cream, but regret not having the better-looking selection of cheeses with biscuits and grapes.

All in all very nice indeed. as we had a good speed over the Marches line (one of my favourite lines in the country) unusually not stopping at Hereford, Leominster, Ludlow etc. I wonder when it was last possible to eat a full three course evening dinner on a regular service train over this line?

We pulled into Shrewsbury a couple of minutes late; a good run onto Crewe as our tables were cleared away. The few lost minutes were made up as we pulled into Crewe exactly on time. I am sure dinner is served for those who may board at Crewe, though as far as I could see no-one boarded First Class to go onto Chester or North Wales. A few minutes after "Y Gerallt Gymro" leaves, a through Virgin train from Euston to Holyhead runs behind it, so I would imagine there is very little uptake of First Class from passengers from London.

So if you get the chance, I'd definitely recommend a ride, traditional hauled train, excellent on board service with good food (in First) and nice scenery rolling by.

Three first class from Cardiff appears a high number, nice to see the £7,600 daily subsidy for this train is being well used, as said in an earlier thread
this ATW service is pure farce.

March 25th Failed at Llandudno Junction & cancelled,previous week failed
again, source North Wales Rail site, I presume no refunds to 1st class as the taxi on standby was not required due to nil 1st passengers,



Bob

 

[First class]

£35 is an excess from standard to 1st, not the premium upgrade.

I imagine it would be a case of whatever is the cheaper.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Does the service have three travel classes?? :roll:

 

[merlodlliw]

Does the service have three travel classes?? :roll:

It all seems a mystery to everyone,suppose the conductor gets confused when a passenger gets on board who does not work for the Govt, and
wants to pay in his/her money and not ours, if you get the pun.

A local A.M asked the question on loadings of this train,where from/where to/
class of travel. ATW said they were incapable of giving this answer & would need to do a manual count. As this ATWs only 1st class train in Wales,could
they not give this simple answer, how many book Holyhead to Cardiff 1st.
If I were giving this train £7.600 a day subsidy, I would want chapter and verse, but
with such low numbers coming from independent travellers no wonder
ATW keep this to themselves. As one Salop CC employee said "FARCE"
as he travelled Crewe to Shrewsbury(source Nth Wales Rail web/news)


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

£35 is an excess from standard to 1st, not the premium upgrade.

I imagine it would be a case of whatever is the cheaper.

I imagine he/she got a free cup of tea for the £35?


Bob

 

[voyagerdude220]

As i've only used WSMR once before, and it was a late morning service from Wrexham to London, i've not really paid any attention to what they offer FC passengers at breakfast, so i'm very impressed, now that they've uploaded the sample menus onto their website, to see how superior their breakfast product appears to be, compared to Virgin Trains.

As for the Arriva "Premier Class" service, i think it'll be very easy for me to judge.. I'm simply going to avoid it, especially as the price is expensive, considering the journey time/mileage.

 

[furryfeet]

so going back to the question asked by voyagerdude220 does the arriva holyhead-cardiff train then have 3 classes ?
2nd,1st and premium ?

If so what is the difference in price between 1st and premium ?

 

[Metroland]

Virgin, which receives £35 million a year in public subsidy, won the West Coast franchise 12 years ago. It withdrew its direct service to Shrewsbury in 2004, claiming that there was insufficient demand. Now, having observed the success of W&S, Virgin is planning to run trains from London to Shrewsbury and Wrexham.

It intends to apply to the Rail Regulator for permission to operate services that, in some cases, would depart within 45 minutes of a W&S train.

The rail industry is watching closely to see whether the regulator will step in to protect W&S from its larger rival. If it does, more small companies are likely to take on the regional monopolies enjoyed by the big companies.

W&S said that it would be likely to close down if it faced direct competition from Virgin. It believes that Virgin would attract a significant proportion of its passengers by offering cheap “advance” fares restricted to a single train. W&S only just covers its costs because it cannot pick up passengers at Wolverhampton and Birming-ham International, where Virgin has exclusive rights under its franchise.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6047483.ece


Rail managers today outlined their vision of a new direct train service from Shropshire to London – including trains capable of speeds of up to 125mph taking passengers to the capital twice a day.

Virgin Trains said it would run two services to and from the county each day from Monday to Saturday if it wins the right to run a service to London Euston.

Concerns have been raised by Wrexham & Shropshire and MPs that any rival service would need to be operated fairly.

Mr Gibb said Virgin Trains would provide the “business-type” of service to London on fast trains, and its services would complement those provided by Wrexham & Shropshire.

He said: “We’re not afraid of competition. We will happily compete with anybody who comes along under the rules determined at the time. It’s for the Rail Regulator to decide.”

HOW THE SERVICE WOULD RUN

* It would use the Super Voyager trains. These carry four coaches and are capable of speeds up to 125mph.

* Two trains would run between Shrewsbury and Euston from Monday to Saturday with one each way on Sundays.

* The first train of the day would leave Shrewsbury at 6.38am, arriving in Euston at about 9.32am. There would also be a second from the town at about 2.24pm, arriving in the capital at 5.20pm.

* Return services would leave Euston at 10.33am arriving in Shrewsbury at about 1.23pm, with a second leaving the capital at 5.46pm and arriving in Shrewsbury at 8.36pm.

* The Rail Regulator would have to grant access rights to Virgin Trains for it to operate a service between Shrewsbury and Euston.

* If approved the services could be introduced in December.

* The county’s direct rail link to London was restored last year when train operator Wrexham & Shropshire began its service to London Marylebone.

* In December, Arriva Trains Wales said it was looking at providing three trains a day between Aberystwyth and London Marylebone, via Telford.


http://www.shropshirestar.com/2009/04/07/virgin-outlines-london-rail-plans/

 

[yorkie]

Chris Gibb is only not afraid of competition when anti-competetive biased rules are in place.

Chris the coward is absolutely petrified of true competition on a fair basis, and he hopes that his Gibberish (excuse the pun) will be accepted by people who are unaware of Virgin's anti-competetive agreement. Unforunately for him, we are not fooled!

 

[Metroland]

The Times seemed to have a got a bee in its bonnet about this:

Britain's train companies have done much to suck the pleasure out of rail travel. Carriages are often standing-room-only crowded. Catering can be grim, if available at all. Fares for a trip across England can top a return flight to New York.

The calculation of fares is so mysteriously complex - varying on how far in advance tickets are bought; for what hour of travel; on board or online - that they seem to have been decided by a bingo caller barking out numbers at random.

So rail travellers were understandably delighted when Wrexham & Shropshire began to run direct trains between North Wales, the West Midlands and London for a cheap flat fare. Its standard-class anytime return from Wrexham to London costs £53. To buy a similar seat on Virgin, which won the West Coast franchise 12 years ago but withdrew its direct London-to-Shrewsbury service several years ago, costs £201. Virgin now plans to run trains in direct competition with W&S, some within 45 minutes of a W&S train.

The rail regulator should think twice before giving Virgin its blessing. It must clarify if, by doing so, it would genuinely be making life sweeter for travellers by boosting competition, or just giving Virgin a permit to use its muscle to cut fares for as long as it takes to bully W&S into bankruptcy and then to drop its direct services again.

In the meantime, Virgin might consider responding to the challenge from W&S not just by replicating its timetable, but by imitating some of its passenger-friendly innovations, such as offering flat fares, and also the ability to buy a ticket on board at the same price. If this encourages more people to catch a train, everyone will profit. That is the true spirit and reward of competition.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6054991.ece

 

[voyagerdude220]

and also the ability to buy a ticket on board at the same price.

Virgin Trains offering reasonably priced tickets onboard, without booking a few years in advance?!

 

[MCR247]

Virgin Trains offering reasonably priced tickets onboard, without booking a few years in advance?!

I know, Virgin sold me an expensive ticket in advance, I needed it, but I rang up a few days before asking why it was expensive. The woman goes 'You should of booked in advance'. I said "I booked it 2 days after they were released! How much more advanced is there? The minute they are released?

 

[merlodlliw]

The times yesterday ran a half page on Virgins attempt to kill off
Wrexham & Shropshire, worth a read,
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6047483.ece

The national press have not yet taken on board, Virgin can only use the
Chester Shrewsbury Wrexham line (single between Chester& Wrexham)
unless Arriva Trains Wales (WAG all Wales Francise) gives up yet more paths
to rivals (in this case its bed partner). ATW seem only too pleased to give up
more paths to kill off W/S, if this were to be the case Wrexham General
serving the 3rd largest conabatuion in Wales, would revert back to a halt
for 158s which is all ATW think it is fit for.

The magic word compliment is short for kill.


my opinion

Bob

 

[Metroland]

Why, all of a sudden, does everyone want to go to Wrexham? Or perhaps they want to leave. Either way, the town is caught between two battling train companies, each offering to carry the citizens of north-east Wales to London. The contest pits rail-borne David against Goliath. The upstart takes the form of Wrexham and Shropshire, which began running a new service to the capital last year via a roundabout route. The giant is played by Virgin Trains, which has recently begun running its own rather faster direct service to London. Wrexham, for all its charms, is not big enough for both. The suspicion is that Virgin has decided to kill off its impudent rival by running a spoiler service - a cause for alarm in the Welsh Marches, which has come to prize its quirky local train company. It runs without a subsidy - unlike Virgin - and is fighting back with cheap fares on sale at any time, and free kippers for breakfast in first class. A peak-time return ticket to London is £53, against £201 on Virgin. Now comes news that its big rival plans to target Shrewsbury too, which is another of the little company's stops, by reintroducing a London service that was cut several years ago. Meanwhile the Welsh firm is banned from picking up any Virgin passengers in Birmingham. The contest mirrors one under way on the east coast, where two small companies are challenging National Express. For now, this is good for travellers. But if Virgin wins, the new trains could stop, and Wrexham would end up back on a rusty siding.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/08/wrexham-shropshire-trains-in-praise-of

Often people who argue for liberalisation and free markets quote 'more choice'. While this can happen, where you have monopolistic situations (I'd include supermarkets, IT companies and other large companies in that) you end up with less competition and worse service. It especially gets dangerous when they argue they are 'too big to fail'.

Goes back to my argument that no company should be allowed to get too big for its boots.

 

[merlodlliw]

Having watched the tactics of both of these companies who tried to strangle
W/S at birth, The All Wales Franchise operator ATW even sent in a 17 page
objection to the ORR along with Virgin, after funding was gained from the
Welsh Assembley for new bay stables for overnight parking, ATW carried on
claiming that the £1m was a waste of public money (a rich statement when
they get £7,600 a day to run the WAG Express full of fresh air) then
along came Virgin with Wolves/Brum is ours, thinking this would also kill
off any competition, how wrong they were.
Due to vast numbers of letters of support,politicians of all parties WAG &
London, the ORR gave permission to W/S.

ATW & Virgin have never forgiven those who supported W/S, now on break even, Virgin can not run through Wrexham to Shrewsbury without ATW giving up four more paths, ATW seem delighted to oblige its bed partner,anything
to kill off W/S. We all know there is not the market for Virgin or the bisare
idea of ATW running 158s to London, if they get the go a head(I am sure
they will not) W/S could not survive, 50 jobs go and Wrexham General will
become a backwater,dirty & unkempt as before, with ATW giving up two paths already for the 0700 VT to London & return which only carries local
passengers to Wrexham/Chester/Wrexham, pure spoilers.



In my book the word compliment means kill off, it is now time the Minister
for Rail in Wales told ATW the Assembley controls the All Wales Franchise
not Virgin,

Also see the Guardian website, SAT 4th April, travel/2009/apr/04/secret-britain-train-wales-ferry
its all about
Predators out to kill off W/S


Bob

 

[The Planner]

ATW to Marylebone is still under the Virgin moderation of competiton rules, even though ATW have contractural paths through to International with Wolves and New St stops. Until thats sorted its unlikely they will get the go ahead (even though it is likely that there will be paths for them.). Consipricy theorists amongst you could say Virgin and ATW could do a deal, ATW with any potential paths if Virgin let them do the Marylebone service.

 

[87015]

Virgin proposal now apparently not happening I've just been texted. Goods news if true.

 

[nedchester]

Virgin proposal now apparently not happening I've just been texted. Goods news if true.

Have heard that as well. Good news I'd say.

 

[merlodlliw]

Heres another, very reliable source


I have just seen a message from a (usually)
well-connected journalist to the effect that Virgin
Trains have decided at a meeting today not to proceed
with their Shrewsbury proposal.

(That's all I know at the moment)

Charlie

North Wales Coast Railway website
www.nwrail.org.uk

I wonder who leaned on Virgin, perhaps ATW have been warned off as well.

Good News

Bob

 

[paul1609]

The journalist is Tony Miles of Modern Railways.
Hes posted the information on the UK.Railway newsgroup.
By the way I was surprised at how slow the Virgin trains were going to be only 16 mins quicker than WSMR to Shrewsbury.
I think that on that basis I would have preferred WSMR.

 

[merlodlliw]

The journalist is Tony Miles of Modern Railways.
Hes posted the information on the UK.Railway newsgroup.
By the way I was surprised at how slow the Virgin trains were going to be only 16 mins quicker than WSMR to Shrewsbury.
I think that on that basis I would have preferred WSMR.

can you guide me to this newsgroup item, I can not find it.


Bob