Wrongful Prosecution

[TDR]

My first post here.

On July 23rd, I travelled from Birmingham New Street to Lancaster with my wife. I bought two advanced single tickets via trainapp and had a valid two-together railcard.
The train departed from Birmingham New Street at 8:07 a.m. The train conductor scanned our tickets around 8:30 a.m. Everything was good. We got off from Lancaster at 10:08 a.m. Several ticket inspectors from the northern railway were at Lancaster. They stopped me, scanned my ticket and let me go. However, towards the exit, one followed me and asked me to stop. He mentioned that the same tickets had been scanned at Lancaster at 8:30 am. I said that it was impossible as I did not share the tickets with anyone. However, they argued that I had shared the tickets with someone.

(1) I told them that the ticket was scanned at 8:30 on the train and asked to check who scanned it. They said that they couldn't do that.
(2) There are no automatic gates at Lancaster. Therefore, whoever scanned the ticket should be from their own team. I asked them to check with the team because whoever let go of the person from Lancaster at 8:30 a.m. with a train ticket that arrived at Lancaster at 10:08 should be wrong. They said that they can't do that either.

I gave up at this point as I had already been arguing with them for a good 20 minutes and was already late for a meeting. Several inspectors were shouting at me and talked to me as a criminal already. They said that they needed to do an investigation and got my name and address. After 10 days, I received a fixed penalty fair notice to pay £60.58 from DRPU northern railway as I did not provide a valid ticket at Lancaster.

I sent them an email explaining everything, attaching my tickets and reminding them how irresponsible and pathetic their behaviour is, and requested a detailed explanation for this matter. I told them I was not paying the penalty, not pleading guilty and was happy to settle this in court.

A week later, I got this reply without any apology at all,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your e-mail with evidence of your ticket for travel.

We can confirm that on this occasion, we have closed this matter down and no further action is required.

Regards

DRPU Team

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am super annoyed by their behaviour as they tried to prosecute an innocent person, and after pointing that out, there is no apology at all.
I want to see whether there is anyone who has experienced similar behaviour and whether I can take legal action against them for trying to wrongfully charge me as they need to learn a lesson.

Thank you!

 

[WesternLancer]

My first post here.

On July 23rd, I travelled from Birmingham New Street to Lancaster with my wife. I bought two advanced single tickets via trainapp and had a valid two-together railcard.
The train departed from Birmingham New Street at 8:07 a.m. The train conductor scanned our tickets around 8:30 a.m. Everything was good. We got off from Lancaster at 10:08 a.m. Several ticket inspectors from the northern railway were at Lancaster. They stopped me, scanned my ticket and let me go. However, towards the exit, one followed me and asked me to stop. He mentioned that the same tickets had been scanned at Lancaster at 8:30 am. I said that it was impossible as I did not share the tickets with anyone. However, they argued that I had shared the tickets with someone.

(1) I told them that the ticket was scanned at 8:30 on the train and asked to check who scanned it. They said that they couldn't do that.
(2) There are no automatic gates at Lancaster. Therefore, whoever scanned the ticket should be from their own team. I asked them to check with the team because whoever let go of the person from Lancaster at 8:30 a.m. with a train ticket that arrived at Lancaster at 10:08 should be wrong. They said that they can't do that either.

I gave up at this point as I had already been arguing with them for a good 20 minutes and was already late for a meeting. Several inspectors were shouting at me and talked to me as a criminal already. They said that they needed to do an investigation and got my name and address. After 10 days, I received a fixed penalty fair notice to pay £60.58 from DRPU northern railway as I did not provide a valid ticket at Lancaster.

I sent them an email explaining everything, attaching my tickets and reminding them how irresponsible and pathetic their behaviour is, and requested a detailed explanation for this matter. I told them I was not paying the penalty, not pleading guilty and was happy to settle this in court.

A week later, I got this reply without any apology at all,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your e-mail with evidence of your ticket for travel.

We can confirm that on this occasion, we have closed this matter down and no further action is required.

Regards

DRPU Team

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am super annoyed by their behaviour as they tried to prosecute an innocent person, and after pointing that out, there is no apology at all.
I want to see whether there is anyone who has experienced similar behaviour and whether I can take legal action against them for trying to wrongfully charge me as they need to learn a lesson.

Thank you!

Hello and welcome.

I thought you are not allowed to use a Two Together Railcard before 09.29 am on a weekday?

If you did and that is what I understand your post says you did, then your ticket may not have been valid for that reason? Maybe the member of staff that scanned your ticket had a scanner that noted this but the staff did not understand the alert and accused you of something else that they made up.

If you have had the issue closed and not been asked for payment and I am correct in what I say (happy to be corrected however) I would be very tempted to let sleeping dogs lie.

As for taking legal action against them I’m sure you can find a lawyer who will take your money but i doubt it’s a wise use of your money.

 

[Haywain]

I believe you are not allowed to use a Two Together Railcard before 09.29 am on a weekday.

Although having been sold tickets you are perfectly entitled to use them. And this isn't the reason for the ticket inspectors suspicion.

I would be very tempted to let sleeping dogs lie.

Agreed, but because life is too short.

 

[MrJeeves]

The train departed from Birmingham New Street at 8:07 a.m. The train conductor scanned our tickets around 8:30 a.m. Everything was good. We got off from Lancaster at 10:08 a.m. Several ticket inspectors from the northern railway were at Lancaster. They stopped me, scanned my ticket and let me go. However, towards the exit, one followed me and asked me to stop. He mentioned that the same tickets had been scanned at Lancaster at 8:30 am. I said that it was impossible as I did not share the tickets with anyone. However, they argued that I had shared the tickets with someone.

This sounds like the member of on board staff had their scanning equipment set up like a gateline where it is registered as a specific station.

This is rather common on a lot of TOCs, and presumably resulted in the revenue staff stating that the ticket had already been scanned as the on board staff may have selected "Lancaster" on their equipment.

I know @yorkie has had concerns about this before, and may be interested in this.

I believe you are not allowed to use a Two Together Railcard before 09.29 am on a weekday.

I'd be more concerned with the retailer if they managed to get Two Together discounted advances before 9:30am...!

 

[WesternLancer]

Although having been sold tickets you are perfectly entitled to use them. And this isn't the reason for the ticket inspectors suspicion.

Assuming the ticket had the accompanying itinerary showing it as valid with that discount at that departure time?

We’d need to see copies of the op’s ticket and booking info to be sure i guess.

 

[Haywain]

Assuming the ticket had the accompanying itinerary showing it as valid with that discount at that departure time?

It is stated that they were Advance tickets (unless I misunderstand the OP), which have an itinerary by default.

 

[WesternLancer]

It is stated that they were Advance tickets (unless I misunderstand the OP), which have an itinerary by default.

Of course. Point well made.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'd be more concerned with the retailer if they managed to get Two Together discounted advances before 9:30am...!

Apologies. Who are 'trainapp' as the OP mentions upthread in post #1?

 

[MrJeeves]

Apologies. Who are 'trainapp' as the OP mentions upthread in post #1?

Your guess is as good as mine!

Hopefully OP (@TDR) could clarify which specific app/website they bought their tickets through?

 

[AlterEgo]

Not sure on what basis the OP wants to take legal action. No loss was incurred, and they closed the case as they ought to have done. They ought to have apologised, but life’s too short to worry about this sort of thing.

 

[furlong]

How much did you pay for each ticket?

 

[sheff1]

I'd be more concerned with the retailer if they managed to get Two Together discounted advances before 9:30am...!

Some retailers (including the forum site) show the quoted price being as for "2 adults with Two Together Railcard" when the searcher states such a railcard is held, even though the actual fare being offered is the full undiscounted fare. I assume the tickets issued will not show a railcard marker, but easy to see why some passengers would believe they did have railcard discounted tickets.

 

[furlong]

Some retailers (including the forum site) show the quoted price being as for "2 adults with Two Together Railcard" when the searcher states such a railcard is held, even though the actual fare being offered is the full undiscounted fare. I assume the tickets issued will not show a railcard marker, but easy to see why some passengers would believe they did have railcard discounted tickets.

Exactly. In my view retailers that do this are misleading the customers as to the fare they are selling and should fail accreditation. Many get this wrong - even stating after selecting the ticket that the railcard is required with it when it is not.

 

[TDR]

Apologies. Who are 'trainapp' as the OP mentions upthread in post #1?

Hopefully OP (@TDR) could clarify which specific app/website they bought their tickets through?

Apologies for the spelling mistake. It is "Trainline App"

I thought you are not allowed to use a Two Together Railcard before 09.29 am on a weekday?

If you did and that is what I understand your post says you did, then your ticket may not have been valid for that reason? Maybe the member of staff that scanned your ticket had a scanner that noted this but the staff did not understand the alert and accused you of something else that they made up.

I used the Two Together Railcard through the Trainline App. I believe they apply the railcard correctly. Anyway, the staff did not even ask for my railcard. The issue they had was the ticket being scanned earlier. They checked from multiple devices, and all the devices stated the same. So, it is not about the railcard.

This sounds like the member of on board staff had their scanning equipment set up like a gateline where it is registered as a specific station.

This is rather common on a lot of TOCs, and presumably resulted in the revenue staff stating that the ticket had already been scanned as the on board staff may have selected "Lancaster" on their equipment.

I know @yorkie has had concerns about this before, and may be interested in this.

This is exactly what happened. But they don't agree with this and bark like mad dogs.

If you have had the issue closed and not been asked for payment and I am correct in what I say (happy to be corrected however) I would be very tempted to let sleeping dogs lie.

As for taking legal action against them I’m sure you can find a lawyer who will take your money but i doubt it’s a wise use of your money.

Not sure on what basis the OP wants to take legal action. No loss was incurred, and they closed the case as they ought to have done. They ought to have apologised, but life’s too short to worry about this sort of thing.

When they did the so-called "investigation", I assumed they checked everything. But instead they send penalty fare notices to everyone. I am very interested in their business model. Isn't it something we need to complain as a community? Or we can sleep and let them charge innocent people for nothing.

 

[30907]

I cannot work out how a sum of £60.58 was arrived at for the fare due.

Trainline may have used a split at Wigan (after 0930) to reduce the fare?

 

[WesternLancer]

When they did the so-called "investigation", I assumed they checked everything. But instead they send penalty fare notices to everyone. I am very interested in their business model. Isn't it something we need to complain as a community? Or we can sleep and let them charge innocent people for nothing.

Well you asked about taking legal action.

Complaining about it is different. I would ask your MP to raise questions about their approach and their behaviour. Northern trains are run by the government directly.

 

[Watershed]

Not sure on what basis the OP wants to take legal action. No loss was incurred, and they closed the case as they ought to have done. They ought to have apologised, but life’s too short to worry about this sort of thing.

I think the only conceivable argument would be for a claim for non-material damages under the GDPR. It is far from clear, however, whether such a claim would be successful - is it lawful for a train company to take (and process) a passenger's details under circumstances where they have, in fact, done nothing wrong?

Sadly I suspect the answer is that in some circumstances, it is lawful.

When they did the so-called "investigation", I assumed they checked everything. But instead they send penalty fare notices to everyone. I am very interested in their business model. Isn't it something we need to complain as a community? Or we can sleep and let them charge innocent people for nothing.

They are far from an impartial bystander in this matter; therefore, in their investigations they are only really interested in determining whether there is potential further wrongdoing - e.g. if you had done the same thing in the past.

They assume that their stuff on the ground will only submit reports for cases where wrongdoing has been committed. They don't at all seem to be open to the notion that their staff might take someone's details under circumstances where the passenger has done nothing wrong.

Unfortunately, I cannot see any realistic way of stopping this abuse of the justice system, other than through political means. Even that seems unlikely to succeed; we have seen how train companies have been given little more than a rap on the knuckles for wrongly prosecuting 75,000 people for crimes as they could not possibly have committed, and/or using fundamentally unlawful methods.

There seems to be no public recognition that a problem orders of magnitude larger than the Post Office scandal (even if not as serious in each individual case) exists in the rail industry. If you look at the comment sections on news articles about the 75,000 wrongful prosecutions, you see that most people assume those affected are "fare dodgers" who got away with wrongdoing. Short of a similarly popular TV documentary that unveils the truth, sadly I cannot see that attitude changing.