X22 Winsford-Liverpool bus in trouble again

[northwichcat]

The subsidy for Saturday only X22 Winsford-Liverpool was originally axed by Cheshire West Council 12 months ago but Winsford Town Council picked up the tab for 12 months.

Now that 12 month period has ended and Winsford Town Council have picked up the tab for a 3 month period on the condition that everyone (including children and pass holders) pays a £7.50 return fare and if the £250 running cost isn't met then Winsford Town Council will pick up the difference.

 

[ivanhoe]

Is this much cheaper than the train fare? Also, I don't know Winsford but is the station in a convenient part of the town where the exiled Liverpool people first moved to in the 60's?

 

[northwichcat]

Is this much cheaper than the train fare?

Off-Peak Day Return fare is £10.70, so yes unless you're a railcard holder.

is the station in a convenient part of the town where the exiled Liverpool people first moved to in the 60's?

I'm not sure there's houses close to the station but I'm not sure if any/many ex-Scousers live there. The bus service starts 2.3 miles west of the station in Winsford Over. It also serves Northwich and Weaverham on the way (which wouldn't be of Winsford Town Council's concern.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now that 12 month period has ended and Winsford Town Council have picked up the tab for a 3 month period on the condition that everyone (including children and pass holders) pays a £7.50 return fare and if the £250 running cost isn't met then Winsford Town Council will pick up the difference.

Is that legal, if it is a local bus service? I'd suggest it is not. It would be very hard to argue that it is a tourist bus, and if it's a coach service on which passes are not valid, BSOG (or whatever it's called now) may not be claimed so I would imagine it would be even more of a basket case.

(Child fares are of course not legally mandatory, so I have no particular issue with that, though it might be more logical to say £10 adult, £5 child rather than £7.50 for everyone, or whatever similar situation works depending on the proportion of each).

 

[northwichcat]

Ignore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are only allowed to travel between Cheshire and Liverpool on the bus I think it would be, but if you are allowed to make a journey like Winsford to Northwich on the bus then I can see your point.

If the former is the case, then it isn't eligible for BSOG as it's a coach service, which must surely make it a basket case.

It's notable that Stagecoach have inserted stops in the 99 "coach" service from MK to Luton Airport at either end of the motorway section precisely to ensure that it *is* a local bus service and so eligible. (Those stops have turned out to be quite popular, but their positioning makes their intention obvious)

 

[northwichcat]

If the former is the case, then it isn't eligible for BSOG as it's a coach service, which must surely make it a basket case.

Ignore my previous post. I posted too quickly and didn't construct it properly, that was far too simplified.

 

[neilmc]

Is that legal, if it is a local bus service? I'd suggest it is not. It would be very hard to argue that it is a tourist bus, and if it's a coach service on which passes are not valid, BSOG (or whatever it's called now) may not be claimed so I would imagine it would be even more of a basket case.

(Child fares are of course not legally mandatory, so I have no particular issue with that, though it might be more logical to say £10 adult, £5 child rather than £7.50 for everyone, or whatever similar situation works depending on the proportion of each).

Is it legal? I don't know but local authorities seem to be increasingly using a loophole to reclassify a service as a "tourist" bus service and thus exempt it from the regulations pertaining to acceptance of passes.

 

[northwichcat]

What I meant to say before but tried to rush it is there are certain ways of preventing bus passes being used.

One would be to for the service to be a limited stop 'coach service' only. That would prevent a journey like Winsford to Northwich being made on the service.

The other way would be for it to be a 'coach service' but with certain sections registered as local bus services, similar to National Express. That could prevent passes being used between Winsford and Liverpool but could allow them to be used between Winsford and Northwich.

No change in the X22 has appeared on VOSA but sometimes they appear with a backdated start date.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I meant to say before but tried to rush it is there are certain ways of preventing bus passes being used.

One would be to for the service to be a limited stop 'coach service' only. That would prevent a journey like Winsford to Northwich being made on the service.

But would also bar a BSOG claim, which would hit them quite hard. Coach operators frequently register eligible sections of their routes to claim this (and add stops to make them eligible), so it must be worth it!

The other way would be for it to be a 'coach service' but with certain sections registered as local bus services, similar to National Express. That could prevent passes being used between Winsford and Liverpool but could allow them to be used between Winsford and Northwich.

Yes, that did occur to me as a possibility, though as I said it would mean reduced BSOG as there would be none for that section.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But would also bar a BSOG claim, which would hit them quite hard. Coach operators frequently register eligible sections of their routes to claim this (and add stops to make them eligible), so it must be worth it!



Yes, that did occur to me as a possibility, though as I said it would mean reduced BSOG as there would be none for that section.

National Express have long registered parts of their routes to obtain fuel duty rebate and now BSOG. In reality, the chances of getting local passengers over said sections is low if not non existent. Money for old rope. Hence you could easily register Winsford to Speke and claim for a large chunk of the route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

National Express have long registered parts of their routes to obtain fuel duty rebate and now BSOG. In reality, the chances of getting local passengers over said sections is low if not non existent. Money for old rope. Hence you could easily register Winsford to Speke and claim for a large chunk of the route.

Yes, I suppose this, then a flat fare of £7.50 applying to the short last section, may have been how it was done.

 

[Busaholic]

If it is a local bus service (i.e. with stops within fifteen miles AS THE CROW FLIES of each other) it will be registered as a local bus service, in which case the relevant passes will have to be accepted, at all hours in the case of a Saturday route. Can't see the get-out clauses being applicable e.g. route provided mainly for the purposes of tourism, although using a 'vintage' vehicle would provide one as First Kernow sneakily did with the Lands End 300 last year, probably to be repeated this year.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If it is a local bus service (i.e. with stops within fifteen miles AS THE CROW FLIES of each other) it will be registered as a local bus service, in which case the relevant passes will have to be accepted, at all hours in the case of a Saturday route. Can't see the get-out clauses being applicable e.g. route provided mainly for the purposes of tourism, although using a 'vintage' vehicle would provide one as First Kernow sneakily did with the Lands End 300 last year, probably to be repeated this year.

Probably register as far as Weaverham, then express. Remember Transdev threatened to do the same to Whitby as NYCC remuneration for ENCTS was crap.

 

[northwichcat]

I saw the bus arriving in Liverpool last Saturday and it had around 35 passengers on it, so it looks like the service could survive but I'm not sure if will be able to survive year round. I imagine passenger numbers will be lower in the post-Christmas Winter weeks.

 

[childwallblues]

As far as I am aware the X22 only picks up in the Northwich/Winsford area. Buses used are normally B7TL 4100-07 which were new to Speke Depot (Liverpool).

 

[northwichcat]

The Winsford Town Council subsidy for the X22 Winsford-Liverpool bus has been withdrawn. GHA are to continue running the bus for now but have given no guarantee to continue operating the service for more than a few months.

 

[Y961 XBU]

The end is finally here for the X22 Service, its done very well to last this long really

PC1098981/24 - G H A COACHES LTD, UNIT 11, VAUXHALL INDUSTRIAL ESTATE, RUABON, WREXHAM, LL14 6UY
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Winsford and Liverpool One Bus Station given service number X22 effective from 19-Dec-2015.

 

[northwichcat]

The end is finally here for the X22 Service, its done very well to last this long really

PC1098981/24 - G H A COACHES LTD, UNIT 11, VAUXHALL INDUSTRIAL ESTATE, RUABON, WREXHAM, LL14 6UY
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Winsford and Liverpool One Bus Station given service number X22 effective from 19-Dec-2015.

Does that mean the last day of service will be 19th December or as of the 19th December the service won't run? I would imagine the last Saturday before Christmas is the best chance of getting a decent loading.

 

[Y961 XBU]

I would of thought it would run on the 19th then withdraw after that