York - Bradford Stations

[317666]

Another quick question from me...

If I was to buy a day return from York to Bradford (Yorkshire) Stations, would this allow me to use the line via Harrogate to get from York to Leeds? I know this takes longer but I want to clear the line on the way, and I'm just wondering if it's a permitted route

 

[island]

I don't think so. York to Bradford Yk Stns must go on map TP which only has the route via Garforth on it. So unless it's within 3 miles of the shortest route it wouldn't be allowed.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, it's valid.

Map TP shows York - Leeds - Bradford.

There are no Routeing Points between York & Leeds via either Garforth or via Harrogate.

York to Halifax is better value from a routeing point of view; it only costs 10p more, and is additionally valid via Selby and also via Huddersfield on map LY.

 

[benk1342]

If you are in any doubt (and I don't think there is any doubt that it is valid), NRE confirms that it is valid if you put Harrogate as a via point.

 

[IanD]

Yes, it's valid.

Map TP shows York - Leeds - Bradford.

There are no Routeing Points between York & Leeds via either Garforth or via Harrogate.

York to Halifax is better value from a routeing point of view; it only costs 10p more, and is additionally valid via Selby and also via Huddersfield on map LY.

Interesting. I knew this was a valid route having travelled many times but looking at the map I'd have been with Island on this. Yes, there are no routing points between Leeds and York but the line to Selby branches off along this line so it's "obviously" via Garforth AND the Harrogate line heads out of Leeds the other way. I suppose they could have improved map TP to have 2 routes from Leeds to York but maybe that would introduce some other mapped routes that they don't want to be valid.

 

[Oscar]

Webtis and The Trainline think it's valid - the OP could print an itinerary.

Interesting. I knew this was a valid route having travelled many times but looking at the map I'd have been with Island on this. Yes, there are no routing points between Leeds and York but the line to Selby branches off along this line so it's "obviously" via Garforth AND the Harrogate line heads out of Leeds the other way.

The "maps" are schematic diagrams which are not trying to accurately represent railway geography. I don't see why the fact that the Leeds - Selby line branches off the Leeds - Garforth - York line means that Leeds - Harrogate - York is not valid because no stations are marked before the split.

York - Harrogate - Leeds is a Permitted Route for York - Leeds and even has its own fares which are cheaper than "Any Permitted". I admit that this doesn't mean anything for York - Bradford but it does suggest to me that Northern are unlikely to have an issue with passengers using York - Harrogate - Leeds as part of a longer journey which goes via York and Leeds.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....York - Harrogate - Leeds is a Permitted Route for York - Leeds and even has its own fares which are cheaper than "Any Permitted"....

York-Harrogate-Leeds services are direct/through trains for York-Leeds journeys.

 

[island]

I would still maintain that the map doesn't show the Harrogate route (contrast map CE, which does) and the ticket isn't valid that way. But if the websites offer it, the usual principles apply.

I very much doubt a guard would make an issue of it in any case.

 

[SickyNicky]

But if the websites offer it, the usual principles apply.

The data used by the online booking engines is basically the maps expressed as nodes and links (although the data sometimes differs). There is no concept of intermediate stations (such as in CE).

Therefore if two nodes (or routeing points) have multiple routes between them (which don't pass through any intermediate routeing points) it will accept either route as valid. A similar thing occurs between Wigan and Preston where you can choose to go via Burscough Bridge/Junction, and no doubt elsewhere.

 

[317666]

Thanks for the advice guys I might just ask the guard of the Harrogate line train on the day, and if not then I'll just get a 'direct' train and clear it another time.

 

[marks87]

York-Harrogate-Leeds services are direct/through trains for York-Leeds journeys.

Exactly, so surely that makes any further discussion moot -- direct trains are always permitted routes.

I'm pretty sure that the fact that some services towards York display Poppleton (and services to Leeds display Burley Park) doesn't make any difference, because that's done just to avoid confusing passengers.

 

[yorkie]

Exactly, so surely that makes any further discussion moot -- direct trains are always permitted routes.

Yes, a direct train from York to Leeds will always be valid on a York to Leeds ticket.

We're discussing a York to Bradford ticket, which is also valid as it's a mapped route (as there is no Routeing Point on the Harrogate loop).

I'm pretty sure that the fact that some services towards York display Poppleton (and services to Leeds display Burley Park) doesn't make any difference, because that's done just to avoid confusing passengers.

Agreed. Kings Cross - Cambridge stoppers are advertised as only going to Foxton, for the same reason that these trains are much slower than the fast trains.

 

[marks87]

Yes, a direct train from York to Leeds will always be valid on a York to Leeds ticket.

We're discussing a York to Bradford ticket, which is also valid as it's a mapped route (as there is no Routeing Point on the Harrogate loop).

Doesn't "Any Permitted" route from A to C via B subsume "Any Permitted" route from A to B anyway?

So in the current example, York to Bradford is permitted via Leeds; York to Leeds is permitted via Harrogate therefore York to Bradford is permitted via Harrogate.

To use another example which hasn't thus far been verified by the routeing guide, Glasgow to Preston is valid via Carlisle; Glasgow to Carlisle is valid via Dumfries; therefore is Glasgow-Preston valid via Dumfries?

(These are genuine questions, by the way, to establish whether or not it could be seen as a general rule, or if there's any "gotcahs").

 

[142094]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that some services towards York display Poppleton (and services to Leeds display Burley Park) doesn't make any difference, because that's done just to avoid confusing passengers.

All services now are advertised as Poppleton or Burley Park - I don't think any services are advertised other than the above, apart from those which terminate at Harrogate, Horsforth or Knaresborough.

 

[Oscar]

Doesn't "Any Permitted" route from A to C via B subsume "Any Permitted" route from A to B anyway?

So in the current example, York to Bradford is permitted via Leeds; York to Leeds is permitted via Harrogate therefore York to Bradford is permitted via Harrogate.

To use another example which hasn't thus far been verified by the routeing guide, Glasgow to Preston is valid via Carlisle; Glasgow to Carlisle is valid via Dumfries; therefore is Glasgow-Preston valid via Dumfries?

(These are genuine questions, by the way, to establish whether or not it could be seen as a general rule, or if there's any "gotcahs").

No, sorry, it doesn't work like that. You can't make any such assumptions. I just mentioned the York - Leeds validity via Harrogate because I thought it may impact how guards react to a York - Bradford ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Doesn't "Any Permitted" route from A to C via B subsume "Any Permitted" route from A to B anyway?

That's not what the Routeing Guide says, no. The 1960s Routeing Guide did have this principle. You can read the Routeing Guide on the ATOC website, and you could also consider joining us at a Fares workshop? (there's one in Edinburgh in a couple of months)

So in the current example, York to Bradford is permitted via Leeds; York to Leeds is permitted via Harrogate therefore York to Bradford is permitted via Harrogate.

It is permitted, but not due to that reasoning.

To use another example which hasn't thus far been verified by the routeing guide, Glasgow to Preston is valid via Carlisle; Glasgow to Carlisle is valid via Dumfries; therefore is Glasgow-Preston valid via Dumfries?

I suggest starting by reading the introduction to the Routeing Guide, then perhaps using the 'Routeing Guide in Detail' to work through some examples.

There are also several posts on this forum where people such as Clagmonster and John @ Home go through the various steps. If you can't find them using our own Search feature, try Google (using the criteria site:railforums.co.uk)

Hope that helps