Yorkshire Area Low-Frequency Services

[MontyP]

There are a number of lines around the Yorkshire/Humberside/N Lincs area that in normal (i.e. pre-Covid) times only have a very infrequent or even Parliamentary service:
- Leeds - Goole - 1 per day in each direction
- York - Sheffield via Pontefract - 2(?) per day in each direction
- Sheffield - Grimsby via Kirton Lindsey - Parliamentary on Sat only
- Skipton - Morecambe - 5 or 6 (?) per day

Does anyone have any information about the historic levels of service on these lines? When did they become so infrequent? Was there ever a time when there was a proper regular service? I vaguely remember in my youth when doing £1 Day Rovers around W Yorks that the Goole line had 4 or 5 services per day - that would have been early 80s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt the Bentham Line ever had much more than it has now, possibly even less. It's just not a very useful line at all, to be honest - it's only really useful to travel to/from Lancaster, Morecambe, Oxenholme and Penrith - any further north or south and you have better alternatives with more frequent services. Its heyday was possibly when Morecambe was a desirable seaside resort? But that would have been mostly bucket and spade specials.

 

[JRT]

Leeds-Goole may have been a main route in the past before I took an interest in traveling. Normal service is 1 way in the morning plus the evening trip. The early afternoon trip was removed a few years ago after the timetable was altered to give a regular service Leeds-Knottingley.

York-Sheffield direct v. Ponte Baghill was the regular routing for Cross-country direct trains until the Selby bypass meant it wasn't a time loss to route v. Donny.
I think there were a few more trips than present 4/5 but were cut back to 2 a few years back. Present service 2/3.

 

[Sprinter107]

In the 1979 timetable trains for the Morecambe line left Leeds at 08.25, 09.35,11.35, 13.35, 15.35, 17.12, and 20.35 on weekdays, with a couple of summer extras on summer Saturdays.

Leeds to Goole trains. Trains left Leeds for Goole on weekdays at 07.03, 09.25, 12.14,14.48, 16.47, and 17.37. There were extras to Castleford at 07.56, and 17.17, and to Knottingley at 21.39. It appears this was the full service for Knottingley too.

Sheffield to Grimsby via Kirton Lindsay. Trains left Sheffield on weekdays at 08.17,12.55, and 16.52. All going to Cleethorpes. There was a dated Sunday train for this line too, starting from Worksop at 10.12, calling Retford, Gainsborough Central, Kirton Lindsay, Brigg, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.

Sheffield to York via Pontefract. Trains left Sheffield weekdays at 00.50 express, 07.05 except Church Fenton, 08.30, except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf, to Scarborough, 09.03 express, 10.22 except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf, 11.16 express, 13.14 express, 13.53 except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf, 15.22 express, 16.32 except Ulleskelf, 17.44 except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf, 19.29 express, 20.22 calling Rotherham and Pontefract Baghill only, 22.05 except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf.
I havent included dated trains. Express is non stop, and all other trains call Rotherham, Bolton on Dearne, Moorthorpe, Pontefract Baghill, Church Fenton and Ulleskelf.

Hope this is the info you need. I had this timetable to hand as I was looking up something else.

 

[JRT]

Sheffield- Cleethorpes I seem to recall ran Monday to Saturday? but was only 3 trips.
Normal service is hourly Sheffield - Gainsborough Central (not currently running)

 

[RT4038]

There are a number of lines around the Yorkshire/Humberside/N Lincs area that in normal (i.e. pre-Covid) times only have a very infrequent or even Parliamentary service:
- Leeds - Goole - 1 per day in each direction
- York - Sheffield via Pontefract - 2(?) per day in each direction
- Sheffield - Grimsby via Kirton Lindsey - Parliamentary on Sat only
- Skipton - Morecambe - 5 or 6 (?) per day

Does anyone have any information about the historic levels of service on these lines? When did they become so infrequent? Was there ever a time when there was a proper regular service? I vaguely remember in my youth when doing £1 Day Rovers around W Yorks that the Goole line had 4 or 5 services per day - that would have been early 80s.

!n 1964 Morecambe-Skipton had 9 trips per day on weekdays
In 1962 Sheffield(Midland)-York (via Pontefract) had 5 stopping trips per weekday, plus 1 more from Sheffield (Victoria). There were also 3 express trains that stopped at Pontefract (Baghill), plus 1 more from Sheffield (Victoria) [Express trains have since been diverted via Leeds or Doncaster]
In 1962 there were no through trains from Leeds to Goole. The service on the Knottingly-Goole line ran from Wakefield via Featherstone and Pontefract (Tanshelf). Passengers from Leeds travelled on trains to, and changed at, Pontefract (Monkhill) . Between Knottingley and Goole there were 9 weekday trains. It was also possibly to travel from Leeds to Goole changing at Selby, 5 per weekday.

I don't have a 60s ER timetable, but in 1956 there were 11 trips per weekday between Barnetby and Retford via Brigg and Gainsborough.

The Morecmbe-Skipton line was reduced in the early 80s (cuts after the Flexible Rostering dispute) I think. The Sheffield-York stopping train timetable was reduced in the (?)90s to run the service with only one unit, instead of 2, I think. Clearly the service on the Pontefract-Goole section was recast when the Wakefield-Pontefract section was withdrawn originally - by 1986 there were 5 trains per weekday between Leeds and Goole, via Knottingley. In 1992 Wakefield-Pontefract was reopened, as a shuttle, and the Leeds-Knottingley-Goole service was down to 3 per weekday.

 

[30907]

A couple of extra points.
Worth mentioning that via Pontefract was the main NE/SW route until the decision to route trains via Doncaster in the 80s (mining subsidence made Pontefract rather slow).
The Morecambe line had a superior service when BR were trying to close the S and C with a number of "fasts" west of Skipton, but this didnt last very long.

 

[WesternLancer]

There are a number of lines around the Yorkshire/Humberside/N Lincs area that in normal (i.e. pre-Covid) times only have a very infrequent or even Parliamentary service:
- Leeds - Goole - 1 per day in each direction
- York - Sheffield via Pontefract - 2(?) per day in each direction
- Sheffield - Grimsby via Kirton Lindsey - Parliamentary on Sat only
- Skipton - Morecambe - 5 or 6 (?) per day

Does anyone have any information about the historic levels of service on these lines? When did they become so infrequent? Was there ever a time when there was a proper regular service? I vaguely remember in my youth when doing £1 Day Rovers around W Yorks that the Goole line had 4 or 5 services per day - that would have been early 80s.

Isn't the Morecambe line scheduled for improved service frequency (possibly delayed due to covid)?

Some of the others suffered a cut back by BR Provincial / Regional Railways in about 1993 IIRC - I assume due to overall budget situation at that time, and still have service levels from that point - the Sheffield Grimsby one comes to mind and maybe also the via Pontefract (York to Sheffield service).

 

[JRT]

Can't remember the service from years ago, but when the Leeds - Carlisle route was threatened with closure, the service v. Settle was reduced and a fast Leeds - Lancaster service was introduced, to connect with WC .
Leeds - Carnforth - Lancaster semifast
Leeds - Carnforth - Morecambe stopper (not calling Lancaster)

After Settle were reprieved, Leeds - Morecambe did have a regular 2-hourly stopper service v. Lancaster, until the timetable was reduced, the 12:19 was cut and the last train was 16:46 for a while.

 

[Sprinter107]

In the 1979 timetable trains for the Morecambe line left Leeds at 08.25, 09.35,11.35, 13.35, 15.35, 17.12, and 20.35 on weekdays, with a couple of summer extras on summer Saturdays.

Leeds to Goole trains. Trains left Leeds for Goole on weekdays at 07.03, 09.25, 12.14,14.48, 16.47, and 17.37. There were extras to Castleford at 07.56, and 17.17, and to Knottingley at 21.39. It appears this was the full service for Knottingley too.

Sheffield to Grimsby via Kirton Lindsay. Trains left Sheffield on weekdays at 08.17,12.55, and 16.52. All going to Cleethorpes. There was a dated Sunday train for this line too, starting from Worksop at 10.12, calling Retford, Gainsborough Central, Kirton Lindsay, Brigg, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.

Sheffield to York via Pontefract. Trains left Sheffield weekdays at 00.50 express, 07.05 except Church Fenton, 08.30, except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf, to Scarborough, 09.03 express, 10.22 except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf, 11.16 express, 13.14 express, 13.53 except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf, 15.22 express, 16.32 except Ulleskelf, 17.44 except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf, 19.29 express, 20.22 calling Rotherham and Pontefract Baghill only, 22.05 except Church Fenton and Ulleskelf.
I havent included dated trains. Express is non stop, and all other trains call Rotherham, Bolton on Dearne, Moorthorpe, Pontefract Baghill, Church Fenton and Ulleskelf.

Hope this is the info you need. I had this timetable to hand as I was looking up something else.

I did only put weekdays down. All those lines did have Saturday services. Sorry, I shoukdve said

 

[Taunton]

Worth mentioning that via Pontefract was the main NE/SW route until the decision to route trains via Doncaster in the 80s (mining subsidence made Pontefract rather slow).

There were a lot of routing changes of the long distance NE-SW services between Sheffield and York in the 1970s-80s, sometimes via Pontefract, sometimes via Normanton, someone posted the details here a while back. Likewise the Sheffield to Leeds fast services, which shared part of the routes. This included moving between different stations in both Rotherham and Wakefield. Notably it was never thought to serve key traffic nodes of Leeds or Doncaster, as nowadays, until later.

 

[RT4038]

Isn't the Morecambe line scheduled for improved service frequency (possibly delayed due to covid)?

Some of the others suffered a cut back by BR Provincial / Regional Railways in about 1993 IIRC - I assume due to overall budget situation at that time, and still have service levels from that point - the Sheffield Grimsby one comes to mind and maybe also the via Pontefract (York to Sheffield service).

Wasn't the Sheffield-Grimsby service concentrated via Doncaster and Scunthorpe at that point (better interchange and stronger passenger demand)?

There were a lot of routing changes of the long distance NE-SW services between Sheffield and York in the 1970s-80s, sometimes via Pontefract, sometimes via Normanton, someone posted the details here a while back. Likewise the Sheffield to Leeds fast services, which shared part of the routes. This included moving between different stations in both Rotherham and Wakefield. Notably it was never thought to serve key traffic nodes of Leeds or Doncaster, as nowadays, until later.

Didn't the 'via Doncaster' only come in once the Selby diversion was built and offered a comparable or better journey time?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Martin Bairstow in "The 'Little' North Western Railway" (2018) has the following Mon-Fri services from Skipton in July 1938.

Combination of expresses, semi-stoppers and all sheds.

Some minor stations omitted.

7:07 All stations to Morecambe (Promenade) and Carnforth.
8:30 Hellifield and Heysham.
9:30 All stations to Morecambe and Carnforth.
11:03 All stations to Morecambe.
11:40 Hellifield, Wennington, all stations to Carnforth and some through carriages to Barrow.
11:57 Hellifield, Lancaster (Green Ayre) and Morecambe. (Mon + Fri only)
1:31 Hellifield, Carnforrh, Windermere also Sedbergh and Keswick. (Fri only)
2:58 Wennington, Carnforth and Barrow.
3:16 Hellifield, Lancaster and Morecambe.
3:23 All stations to Morecambe.
4:07 All stations to Morecambe.
4:38 Hellifield, Wennington, Carnforth.
5:25 All stations to Wennington, Lancaster, Morecambe, Carnforth.
5:38 Lancaster, Morecambe.
5:47 All stations to Wennington, Lancaster, Morecambe, Carnforth.
6:47 Most stations to Morecambe, Carnforth.
9:04 All stations to Bentham,
Lancaster, Morecambe.
10:10 Hellifield, Lancaster, Heysham.

Most trains originates from Leeds City or Bradford Forster Square.

Even more trains on Summer Saturdays, apparently.

Not so busy on Sundays.

 

[WesternLancer]

I can't locate what service skipton to Lancaster should now be (if a- Northern had got the rolling stock it expected in the franchise bid on time and b- covid had not happened) - that would be interesting to compare with the examples cited above for eg 1979 and 1938.

This was a stakeholder request - Rail North I think
Increase the Bentham Line service to a minimum of seven trains each way to ensure that it is possible to commute to Lancaster, Leeds, Bradford and Skipton;

 

[MontyP]

There were a lot of routing changes of the long distance NE-SW services between Sheffield and York in the 1970s-80s, sometimes via Pontefract, sometimes via Normanton, someone posted the details here a while back. Likewise the Sheffield to Leeds fast services, which shared part of the routes. This included moving between different stations in both Rotherham and Wakefield. Notably it was never thought to serve key traffic nodes of Leeds or Doncaster, as nowadays, until later.

I remember the NE-SW trains travelling via that route (and also the ones from Leeds running via Normanton, hence missing out Wakefield - incredible), but did they ever stop at Pontefract? I think some services (but not all) stopped at Rotherham but I don’t remember any Intercity trains at Baghill.

 

[alistairlees]

Most certainly they used to stop at Ponty B. Until the mid 1980s roughly, though latterly only additional services like York to Bristol I think. I can look some up if you like ?

 

[30907]

I can't locate what service skipton to Lancaster should now be (if a- Northern had got the rolling stock it expected in the franchise bid on time and b- covid had not happened) - that would be interesting to compare with the examples cited above for eg 1979 and 1938.

This was a stakeholder request - Rail North I think
Increase the Bentham Line service to a minimum of seven trains each way to ensure that it is possible to commute to Lancaster, Leeds, Bradford and Skipton;

That's more or less what it got a couple of years ago - Dec 2019 had 8 tpd, though not including a commuter working into Lancaster.
Current service is dire, December supposedly gets 6 of the 8.

 

[YorksLad12]

I remember the NE-SW trains travelling via that route (and also the ones from Leeds running via Normanton, hence missing out Wakefield - incredible), but did they ever stop at Pontefract? I think some services (but not all) stopped at Rotherham but I don’t remember any Intercity trains at Baghill.

How did they miss out Wakefield (K) if running via Normanton? Was the other route south still open in those days?

For a little personal project I'm working on I had all of my old documents out, and read one in which WY County Council had proposed closing Woodlesford as well as Altofts, and running everything to Castleford via Westgate and Kirkgate. Faster to Sheffield, slower to Cas & Goole. There were also semi-fasts to Sheffield via Rotherham, apparently (will we ever get those back now?). But then the Council was abolished and the PTA had a re-think.

Also in the 1980s WY pulled funding for Huddersfield-Denby Dale, but reinstated it when the line was singled (and opened Berry Brow). SY only agreed to run services to Penistone via Barnsley at the last minute, they still wanted to use the direct route. Scary to think how close we were to losing these routes and stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't locate what service skipton to Lancaster should now be (if a- Northern had got the rolling stock it expected in the franchise bid on time and b- covid had not happened) - that would be interesting to compare with the examples cited above for eg 1979 and 1938.

This was a stakeholder request - Rail North I think
Increase the Bentham Line service to a minimum of seven trains each way to ensure that it is possible to commute to Lancaster, Leeds, Bradford and Skipton;

I'm not sure if the number of trains is key to that, rather (and I know it's missing, and it's missing from far too many "basket case" rural lines e.g. the Conwy Valley which doesn't have any services suitable for commuter timings and as such is only useful for shoppers and leisure travel) that they need to ensure there are arrivals at the big places at each end at 08something, and departures from there at around 1745-1800, for office commuters who are likely to form the bulk of the custom, plus probably a lunchtime round trip for other traffic.

This is slightly complicated with a branch line with two ends like that, because you're not going to be able to do that with one unit/crew, you're going to need to send one into each end at about the same time and then find something else to do with it in-between times. Interworking with the S&C might provide that purpose, to be fair, as does, at the other end, shuttling between Lancaster and Morecambe.

I don't advocate reducing to that sort of service other than on *very* rural lines like the Far North, but, until you get to hourly at which point Takt probably wins, it's more important to think about your potential users (don't ask those on the trains, ask those who aren't using them why not) and what time they need their train to be for it to be useful.

 

[30907]

How did they miss out Wakefield (K) if running via Normanton? Was the other route south still open in those days?.

Yes it was, the historic route via Cudworth.

I'm not sure if the number of trains is key to that, rather (and I know it's missing, and it's missing from far too many "basket case" rural lines e.g. the Conwy Valley which doesn't have any services suitable for commuter timings and as such is only useful for shoppers and leisure travel) that they need to ensure there are arrivals at the big places at each end at 08something, and departures from there at around 1745-1800, for office commuters who are likely to form the bulk of the custom, plus probably a lunchtime round trip for other traffic.

That's not unlike the service that applied from just pre-privatisation until 2018. The only commuter market that was catered for seemed to be Skipton (0830 arrival 1730 departure - I assumed it was College traffic, but never went to check!) rather than Leeds, though you have to remember that Bentham is the only significant community served only by the line and is well outside the normal Leeds/Bradford commuter belt. The 2018 changes gave Bentham-Leeds a commuter service instead.

The bigger flows were for leisure and universities - traditionally Morecambe then Lancaster (hence the switch of route) - but these are essentially catered for using West Yorks commuter stock (the line only has one dedicated set in the morning peak - the 07xx and 08xx ex Leeds both come in as commuter trains.

 

[randyrippley]

Since when has a train service to Lancaster been deemed to be "Yorkshire area"?

 

[30907]

Since when has a train service to Lancaster been deemed to be "Yorkshire area"?

The OP defined it - quite reasonably IMO as only one station on the line is in Lancashire,.
I can confirm (having lived and worked in both counties) that there is freedom of movement across the border

 

[MontyP]

Most certainly they used to stop at Ponty B. Until the mid 1980s roughly, though latterly only additional services like York to Bristol I think. I can look some up if you like ?

If you’ve got them to hand it would be interesting to see, maybe late 70s or early 80s. NE/SW trains weren’t clockface back then I don’t think? When was the hourly interchange between NE/SW and NW /SE at New St introduced? Although that is prob a separate topic!

 

[YorksLad12]

The OP defined it - quite reasonably IMO as only one station on the line is in Lancashire,.
I can confirm (having lived and worked in both counties) that there is freedom of movement across the border

The Bentham Line is in Yorkshire as far as Bentham, and the Settle-Carlisle as far as Garsdale (if you ignore the boundary change (which many people do)).

 

[Bevan Price]

The June 1965 timetable shows these trains from Sheffield to Grimsby / Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central (timetable for M-F; Saturday was slightly different, and also had a summer only service from Manchester)
Sheffield Victoria dep. 07:29; 09:45; 13:13 (omitted several stations); 14:30; 17:21; 18:30
Plus overnight semi-fast, 01:10 Manchester Picc - Cleethorpes (carried newspapers)
In the opposite direction, there were
Cleethorpes to Retford (connections, some very poor, to Sheffield): 06:00; 14:00;
Cleethorpes to Sheffield Victoria: 08:14; 10:15; 12:02; 15:47; 18:58.
There was also a very basic Sunday service , but only until late September:
Sheffield Vic. dep. 03:43; 10:17; 17:57.
Cleethorpes dep. 09:56; 16:50; plus 17:51 to Retford (22 min. connection for Sheffield.

A supplement dated 3 January 1966 shows all (except the overnight Manchester service) diverted from Sheffield Victoria to Sheffield Midland, with some retiming, but similar service levels.

Other services at that time can hardly be described as lavish. For example, apart from the Harwich boat train and summer saturday trains, there were only 6 through services from Sheffield Victoria to Lincoln , plus a few connections for Lincoln at Retford.
There were some gaps of over 3 hours on the Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Cleethorpes route.
Doncaster dep. 05:49; 09:15; 12:39; 13:50: 16:36; 18:01; 22:15, plus a 20:18 to Scunthorpe
and an odd 16:10 Leeds Central to Cleethorpes which avoided Doncaster.

Sheffield to York, June 1965
Non-stop:
Sheffield Victoria dep. 03:52 (MX) (overnight from Swindon via GC)
Sheffield Midland: dep. 00:54, 12:10; 14:10

Calling at Rotherham (Masborough or Central) (R) & Pontefract Baghill (P)
Sheffield Victoria dep. 18:10 (R,P**) (Bournemouth to York or Newcastle, dependent on date)
** - Also called at Bolton On Dearne & Moorthorpe in summer only
Sheffield Midland dep. 09:15 (R,P); 11:27(R,P, ^^); 17:10 (R,P); 19:22 (P); 21:25 (R); 21:45 (R,P)
^^ Also called at Bolton On Dearne & Moorthorpe.

Local services, few of which actually called at all stations:
Sheffield Midland dep.
07:00; 08:10; 15:41; 18:05

A similar level of service ran southbound from York
Some additional services ran in each direction on summer saturdays

 

[JRT]

The Bentham Line is in Yorkshire as far as Bentham, and the Settle-Carlisle as far as Garsdale (if you ignore the boundary change (which many people do)).

And of course all trains are run from the Yorkshire end!