GA metro when crossrail comes in

[mrredrunner100]

hi

i have just found this on the internet and the map shows that the chilford/cheshunt/enfield town branches are going to the overgreound, this is the first i have heard of this happening (knew about the crossrail stuff) is this true ?

http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/tube-map-december-2014.html

thanks

mrredrunner100

 

[SPADTrap]

hi

i have just found this on the internet and the map shows that the chilford/cheshunt/enfield town branches are going to the overgreound, this is the first i have heard of this happening (knew about the crossrail stuff) is this true ?

http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/tube-map-december-2014.html

thanks

mrredrunner100

It is indeed true! Mentioned many many times on this forum

 

[NotATrainspott]

In the long term, it's almost certain that London Overground will take over more and more inner-suburban services in London. This is especially important in South London, where the standard rail franchises don't care enough about services for people within the M25 and there is no Underground alternative. It also helps with future Crossrails as the inner suburban services then TfL will just start running the services into tunnels rather than the surface termini.

 

[swt_passenger]

hi

i have just found this on the internet and the map shows that the chilford/cheshunt/enfield town branches are going to the overgreound, this is the first i have heard of this happening (knew about the crossrail stuff) is this true ?

Apart from happening on the same date, the two changes are not really related, i.e. there was no operational need for the two transfers to coincide at all. The Shenfield transfer is just a case of separating out TOC responsibilities in advance of the Crossrail infrastructure opening and rolling stock introduction in a few years time, it won't result in significant service changes until then.

 

[mrredrunner100]

It is indeed true! Mentioned many many times on this forum

ahh ok, im haven't been on here recently

so does this mean that the overground trains will end up on the metro lines (possibly over time)?

 

[LLivery]

ahh ok, im haven't been on here recently

so does this mean that the overground trains will end up on the metro lines (possibly over time)?

New trains will start operation in 2017 I think. The tender for new trains is current ongoing. 30 4 car trains are planned for the Edmonton, Chingford and Romford-Upminster lines. My bet is that they will have 2+2 seating but some think different.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the long term, it's almost certain that London Overground will take over more and more inner-suburban services in London. This is especially important in South London, where the standard rail franchises don't care enough about services for people within the M25 and there is no Underground alternative. It also helps with future Crossrails as the inner suburban services then TfL will just start running the services into tunnels rather than the surface termini.

Apart from station appearance/staffing I still don't understand this point of view. My experience of LO staff knowledge is terrible, frequency wont and can't increase on almost every route, most stations have frequencies just as high or higher than LO stations and the most of the fleet in South London already modern (in my opinion better) and apart from the 455s won't be replaced anytime soon. I just think this idea that LO taking over lines in South London will mean this huge change is frankly nonsense. South London's network is nowhere near as bad as North of the river.

 

[sprinterguy]

Announced on April 9th last year. See here:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/more-emus-for-london-overground.html
More EMUs for London Overground
09 Apr 2014

UK: Transport for London announced on April 9 that it would be inviting expressions of interest in a contract to supply electric multiple-units to operate routes that are to be transferred to its London Overground network in 2015. New rolling stock will also be required following electrification of London Overground’s diesel-worked Gospel Oak – Barking route.

TfL says that the base order will be for 39 four-car EMUs, 30 of which will be deployed on the routes from London Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford. These routes are currently operated by Greater Anglia, but are due to transfer on May 31 2015 to TfL, which hopes to introduce the new fleet between mid-2017 and the end of 2018.

Also transferring to TfL will be the short Romford – Upminster route, for which one trainset will be required to operate a shuttle service. Following completion of electrification by Network Rail in 2017, Gospel Oak – Barking will be operated with a fleet of eight four-car EMUs.

‘We are inviting train manufacturers worldwide to do business with us’, said TfL Director of Rail Jonathan Fox. ‘Our customers have already seen huge improvements to the existing London Overground network and we will be bringing that same expertise and those high standards to a wider group of passengers and regular London commuters’.

‘Ordering new trains for the Gospel Oak - Barking line and West Anglia route together, as well as including a provision to order more trains should passenger demand warrant additional capacity, ensures that we get best value for money for taxpayers’, he added.

All the usual suspects have been shortlisted for the new rolling stock order. Expect an announcement on the winning bidder for the train building contract by March 6th:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ondon-overground-emu-shortlist-announced.html
London Overground EMU shortlist announced
15 Jul 2014

UK: Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi and Siemens have been shortlisted for a contract to supply 39 four-car ‘metro-style’ electric multiple-units for London Overground services, Transport for London announced on July 15.

Tenders are to be submitted by the end of October, and TfL expects to announce the successful bidder by March 6 2015. Deliveries are scheduled to take place between summer 2017 and spring 2018.

‘We welcome the wide international interest from the rolling stock market in bidding for this order and look forward to engaging with the chosen manufacturers to define a standard that will set a new benchmark for TfL for many years to come’, said Mike Brown, TfL’s Managing Director of London Rail. Hyundai Rotem and Stadler Bussnang had also expressed interest in the contract.

The order will comprise 31 EMUs to be deployed on services from London Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford, as well as the Romford – Upminster line. TfL’s London Overground concessionaire LOROL is to take over these services on an interim basis from May 31 2015, operating the existing rolling stock. The services will then be merged into the overall London Overground concession when it ends in November 2016 and is re-let.

The remaining eight EMUs are to replace two-car Bombardier Class 172 diesel multiple-units operating on the Gospel Oak – Barking route which is to be electrified by summer 2017.

 

[Latecomer]

Apart from station appearance/staffing I still don't understand this point of view. My experience of LO staff knowledge is terrible, frequency wont and can't increase on almost every route, most stations have frequencies just as high or higher than LO stations and the most of the fleet in South London already modern (in my opinion better) and apart from the 455s won't be replaced anytime soon. I just think this idea that LO taking over lines in South London will mean this huge change is frankly nonsense. South London's network is nowhere near as bad as North of the river.

Your view is however out of step with passenger satisfaction ratings where LO generally attract 20% more passengers giving 'good' ratings compared to Southern and Southeastern. When it comes to those dissatisfied SE has almost twice as many dissatisfied passengers as LO. This is in spite of LO punctuality taking a hit largely because of knock on effects of London Bridge capacity issues, although there have been some glitches with new 5 car trains.

TfL/LO make a commitment to staff every station so at least staff are there! Stations taken over by TfL tend to get pretty rapidly upgraded as the first fix and accessibility with lifts etc has taken massive leaps forward. Although it hasn't happened yet there is a move to bring in all night services at weekends on LO and the scheduling of trains is hindered more by the competitive nature that exists between companies operating under the franchise model than the concessionary one. In my view the sooner all the inner metro services come under TfL control the better.

Regarding rolling stock for the Chingford, Enfield Town, Cheshunt services I would think the configuration will largely depend on passenger projections. With London breaking population records I can only see a move towards more open standing areas for metro services, whether this would apply to whole trains like on the 378's or whether there will be a combination of longitudinal seating in some areas with 2+2 in others will be interesting to see once the order is confirmed.

 

[LLivery]

Your view is however out of step with passenger satisfaction ratings where LO generally attract 20% more passengers giving 'good' ratings compared to Southern and Southeastern. When it comes to those dissatisfied SE has almost twice as many dissatisfied passengers as LO. This is in spite of LO punctuality taking a hit largely because of knock on effects of London Bridge capacity issues, although there have been some glitches with new 5 car trains.

TfL/LO make a commitment to staff every station so at least staff are there! Stations taken over by TfL tend to get pretty rapidly upgraded as the first fix and accessibility with lifts etc has taken massive leaps forward. Although it hasn't happened yet there is a move to bring in all night services at weekends on LO and the scheduling of trains is hindered more by the competitive nature that exists between companies operating under the franchise model than the concessionary one. In my view the sooner all the inner metro services come under TfL control the better.

Regarding rolling stock for the Chingford, Enfield Town, Cheshunt services I would think the configuration will largely depend on passenger projections. With London breaking population records I can only see a move towards more open standing areas for metro services, whether this would apply to whole trains like on the 378's or whether there will be a combination of longitudinal seating in some areas with 2+2 in others will be interesting to see once the order is confirmed.

Having staff there is wonderful if they all know what they are talking about. A member of staff that gives wrong information might as well not be there.

LO currently have a much less complex network than SE, SN and SWT. The Silverlink network was atrocious with low frequencies (still the same on the Watford DC) and filthy, old, uncomfortable trains. So naturally people are much happier with the service even though its heavily overcrowded throughout the day on some sections.

The national Access for All project is responsible for the better step free access at stations, not LO.

As for competitive timetabling between operators - I have absolutely no idea how LO operation would make a difference. Where is this extra capacity going to come from for more trains? All trains in South London go through either: Charing Cross-London Bridge, Victoria/Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Raynes Park/Richmond/Balham, St Johns/Lewisham, Croydon or Shortlands - all are at/near capacity. No matter who operates the trains, longer distance trains will have to be timetabled for. Thameslink and Southern already have 24hr services but can't run anymore because of Network Rail works. LO would need Network Rails approval, which will be very hard to obtain because the works are very frequent and LO have no diversion routes.

I agree Southeastern is terrible, but Southern and SWT are much better. No matter how bad the ratings are for all of them the main point stands: the same frequency and broadly the same trains would operate under LO. Difference will be quite small.

 

[87015]

As for competitive timetabling between operators - I have absolutely no idea how LO operation would make a difference. Where is this extra capacity going to come from for more trains? All trains in South London go through either: Charing Cross-London Bridge, Victoria/Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Raynes Park/Richmond/Balham, St Johns/Lewisham, Croydon or Shortlands - all are at/near capacity. No matter who operates the trains, longer distance trains will have to be timetabled for. Thameslink and Southern already have 24hr services but can't run anymore because of Network Rail works. LO would need Network Rails approval, which will be very hard to obtain because the works are very frequent and LO have no diversion routes.

LO will be improving various bits of service frequency, operating hours and train lengths (off-peak mainly, admittedly) from almost Day 1 in West Anglia/Romford branch. They get things done.

Staffing is always better than not having any, plenty of Southern station staff are adept at being useless as well - every TOC has them. Tulse Hill's main entrance door has been borded up for months, that certainly wouldn't be tolerated on LO.

 

[LLivery]

LO will be improving various bits of service frequency, operating hours and train lengths (off-peak mainly, admittedly) from almost Day 1 in West Anglia/Romford branch. They get things done.

Staffing is always better than not having any, plenty of Southern station staff are adept at being useless as well - every TOC has them. Tulse Hill's main entrance door has been borded up for months, that certainly wouldn't be tolerated on LO.

Oh defiantly the staff from other operators are not perfect either. The last LO trains for the night are certainly not later than Southern and SWT at the moment and while off peak trains could do with lengthening in West Anglia they are not really in need of lengthening outside the peaks in South London at the moment. A large number are already 8-10 cars.

Btw I'm glad LO will take over AGA suburbans - WAGN, NXEA and AGA have been awful.

 

[Chris125]

A member of staff that gives wrong information might as well not be there.

I can't agree with that - ensuring all stations on the Overground are staffed has helped reassure passengers and help cut down on fare evasion, anti-social behaviour, vandalism and the like. It's undoubtedly helped improve the image of the North London Line and Gospel Oak-Barking and hopefully a similar effect will be seen on the West Anglia routes.

 

[causton]

The Silverlink network was atrocious with low frequencies (still the same on the Watford DC)

Hardly see how the Watford DC could be improved without affecting the Bakerloo. Perhaps you could have a shuttle Euston - Queens Park as that could do with an extra few tph but I don't see the stations between Harrow and Watford needing more than 3tph (apart from Bushey which has more obviously)...

 

[Class 170101]

I reckon 6tph may be possible off peak as there appear to be gaps kn the timetable where LOROL should be.

 

[306024]

LO will be improving various bits of service frequency, operating hours and train lengths (off-peak mainly, admittedly) from almost Day 1 in West Anglia/Romford branch. They get things done.

Staffing is always better than not having any, plenty of Southern station staff are adept at being useless as well - every TOC has them. Tulse Hill's main entrance door has been borded up for months, that certainly wouldn't be tolerated on LO.

Amazing what you can do under a different financing regime. A franchise is let by the DfT and you get what you pay for, usually the cheapest bid. A concession is let by TfL, has much better quality controls and TfL take the revenue risk, although some do question whether the finances of LO are as efficient as they could be.

Not sure what service frequencies are being improved from day 1, unless you mean the Sunday service which was actually devised by AGA and TfL. LO were just on the receiving end.

 

[Nym]

Hardly see how the Watford DC could be improved without affecting the Bakerloo. Perhaps you could have a shuttle Euston - Queens Park as that could do with an extra few tph but I don't see the stations between Harrow and Watford needing more than 3tph (apart from Bushey which has more obviously)...

Board or travel on some of the peak trains from WFJ south of Carpenders Park and then claim more tph isn't needed (in the peaks, off peak they can happily terminate at Willesden Junction)...

It would also be helpful as far south as Wembley Central where a significant number of passengers turf off the train.

It wowuld also remove the need for the Stonebridge terminators off peak on the Bakerloo (They run in the non-LOROL on the 6tph cycle) meaning a more reliable bakerloo line.

And finally, it would give an actual turn up and go frequency on the line.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Hardly see how the Watford DC could be improved without affecting the Bakerloo. Perhaps you could have a shuttle Euston - Queens Park as that could do with an extra few tph but I don't see the stations between Harrow and Watford needing more than 3tph (apart from Bushey which has more obviously)...

Over the years - the Bakerloo crept in with ever higher frequencies to Harrow and Stonebridge - no bad thing maybe - but off peak - a lot of fresh air carried - and surprisingly an "easy" win for 4 tph Watford - Euston DC gets a lot harder.

A cynic might say it was partly due to an LUL metric of "trains in passenger service" as opposed to actual need. (hence gems like a 00xx Harrow to Stonebridge train) - basically an ECS move. Always thought 4 tph on the DC for the section Harrow - Watford was right , especailly as now most people have a ticket...or have paid..

 

[ScotGG]

I agree Southeastern is terrible, but Southern and SWT are much better. No matter how bad the ratings are for all of them the main point stands: the same frequency and broadly the same trains would operate under LO. Difference will be quite small.

Frequency on Southeastern metro weekend and evenings wouldn't stay the same if LO took over. They realise the importance of 'turn up and go', and thus the 30 mins gaps on many southeastern would reduce to every 15 minutes, though there has been some improvements in reducing 30 min gaps on SE metro. The DfT are far less likely however to push for further improvements than TfL would be given both's track records.

As for staff, it's not just about info, but having a presence to deter crime, offer re-assurance which attracts more users, and prevents fare evasion thus greater income received which can be re-invested. Many Southeastern stations are unstaffed at many times (even busy ones like Greenwich and fast rising like Deptford), which deters some people, plus many users do not pay and much of the SE London network is a free railway for certain parts of the day. No staff at stations, no barriers, no staff onboard. TfL realise this is foolish. Well they did, looks like they are going that way with staff cuts which will cost them a lot of £££

 

[LLivery]

Frequency on Southeastern metro weekend and evenings wouldn't stay the same if LO took over. They realise the importance of 'turn up and go', and thus the 30 mins gaps on many southeastern would reduce to every 15 minutes, though there has been some improvements in reducing 30 min gaps on SE metro. The DfT are far less likely however to push for further improvements than TfL would be given both's track records.

As for staff, it's not just about info, but having a presence to deter crime, offer re-assurance which attracts more users, and prevents fare evasion thus greater income received which can be re-invested. Many Southeastern stations are unstaffed at many times (even busy ones like Greenwich and fast rising like Deptford), which deters some people, plus many users do not pay and much of the SE London network is a free railway for certain parts of the day. No staff at stations, no barriers, no staff onboard. TfL realise this is foolish. Well they did, looks like they are going that way with staff cuts which will cost them a lot of £££

30 minute frequencies are bad and only really occur on Sundays even though the trains are packed. Why SE haven't increased the frequencies there I just don't understand. So yes I admit there I had forgotten about that.

As for crime I think vandals are being a bit over exaggerated in South London. I don't travel in the Bexley part of Southeastern often but for the rest of South London its rare to see a scratch window or spray paint etc on trains or at stations now. Stations are just not very well looked after but vandalism is nowhere near as bad as made out.

Ticketless travel is a major problem that Southeastern seem to have no idea about. Problem is a lot of their stations unlike LO and AGA have 2, 3, 4 entrances. Catford Bridge has 5! Honestly in 11 years I've never seen someone check tickets on SE either. That combination of no barriers, no guards, cr*p service and high fares put temptation in people hands. However its quite different on most of SWT (with guards, most stations have barriers and are staffed) and with Southern. TfL bang on about having staff present and then sack LO guards - hypocrisy at its finest.

Giving SE a franchise extension was the biggest disgrace on the railways since railtrack in my eyes, but even then I still find AGA suburbans to be worse. I welcome LO with open arms there.

I'm not against LO taking over South London but as you can tell I'm skeptical in the amount of improvements that is claimed would occur. An area bounded by Windsor, Woking, Guildford, Horsham/Dorking, Tattenham Corner, Caterham, Sevenoaks and Chatham via Dartford would be sensible, though I would rather joint control between TfL, Surrey & Kent than full TfL control.

 

[Wolfie]

LO currently have a much less complex network than SE, SN and SWT. The Silverlink network was atrocious with low frequencies (still the same on the Watford DC) and filthy, old, uncomfortable trains. So naturally people are much happier with the service even though its heavily overcrowded throughout the day on some sections.

I am sure that I have read before that without upgrades to the power supply it is not possible to run more trains on the Euston DC lines....

 

[jopsuk]

An area bounded by Windsor, Woking, Guildford, Horsham/Dorking, Tattenham Corner, Caterham, Sevenoaks and Chatham via Dartford would be sensible, though I would rather joint control between TfL, Surrey & Kent than full TfL control.

to the north? Shenfield, obviously, Hertford East, Stevenage via Hertford North (no Letchworth from Moorgate after Thameslink, additional platform at Stevenage is being built fro terminating), Welwyn Garden City. Best leave the Midland Mainline to Thameslink, WCML already has LO to Wtford and may get Crossrail to Tring. Chlitern probably best left as a single operation, as is the LTS (C2C) and Crossrail is going to Reading.

You're right though that the local authorities need a strong role in any such TfL takeover.

 

[Busaholic]

30 minute frequencies are bad and only really occur on Sundays even though the trains are packed. Why SE haven't increased the frequencies there I just don't understand. So yes I admit there I had forgotten about that.

As for crime I think vandals are being a bit over exaggerated in South London. I don't travel in the Bexley part of Southeastern often but for the rest of South London its rare to see a scratch window or spray paint etc on trains or at stations now. Stations are just not very well looked after but vandalism is nowhere near as bad as made out.

Ticketless travel is a major problem that Southeastern seem to have no idea about. Problem is a lot of their stations unlike LO and AGA have 2, 3, 4 entrances. Catford Bridge has 5! Honestly in 11 years I've never seen someone check tickets on SE either.

I don't travel on Southeastern very often now, but between the peaks I've been checked several times over the last few years, basically on slow trains Bromley to London terminals.

 

[simple simon]

I am sure that I have read before that without upgrades to the power supply it is not possible to run more trains on the Euston DC lines....

Its the signalling, when BR replaced the former LMS signalling system (circa late 1980's / early 1990's) they reduced line capacity so much that it is not possible to add even 1tph to the Watford Junction service.

The Bakerloo should really go as far as Hatch End, if not all the way to Watford, as thats the boundary station for the GLC area. But there is no facility for reversing trains there, whilst there was a siding at Harrow & Wealdstone. Actually, there used to be two sidings here but BR got rid of one of these as well :cry:

Ideally there should also be a LO service between Stratford and Willesden Junction low level bay platform via Primrose Hill. This would also benefit the stations between Euston and Queens Park.

Simon

 

[jon0844]

Having staff there is wonderful if they all know what they are talking about. A member of staff that gives wrong information might as well not be there.

That's very true, but once LO spreads to all of London, most people will be using Oyster and not really have many problems. Staff will be asked rather routine questions that can be easily answered.

With fewer people using paper tickets, those people are sure to get an even worse response as they become the minority.

Until the changeover to smart ticketing nationally, it's going to be 'fun'!

I think that giving stations a makeover, new trains, visible staff (including more visible 'security' staff) has really made LO feel like a good, safe and arguably reliable service.

And when people even in run down areas get a good service, it seems that people do behave better and look after what they've got. LO simply needs to make sure it can keep things looking good once the shine has worn off the stations and trains, never letting things get anywhere near as bad as Silverlink had allowed things to become.

 

[samuelmorris]

Agreed, the silverlink metro lines were pretty repulsive to my recollection, whereas even if it's a bit crowded, LO is a very pleasant line to use these days.

 

[jopsuk]

Ideally there should also be a LO service between Stratford and Willesden Junction low level bay platform via Primrose Hill. This would also benefit the stations between Euston and Queens Park.

Simon

Pfft. Your plan is saner than mine- fully restore the four track alignment through from Highbury & Islington to Camden Road, extending it slightly west, and connect the Watford DC to the East London Line.

Ultimately on the DC it would preferable to not mix tube and mainline stock, for accessibility reasons

 

[43074]

The DfT has confirmed that LO will be getting 17 315s and 15 317s - 8 317/7s and 7 317/8s - for the WA Inners until the new stock is introduced.

Source: page 21 of this document

 

[anthony263]

I know 315837 has been re painted into the crossrail livery

 

[Antman]

I don't travel on Southeastern very often now, but between the peaks I've been checked several times over the last few years, basically on slow trains Bromley to London terminals.

I use them quite a bit and there has been more staffing of ticket barriers recently.

As for whether LO should ever take over their inner London routes well as others have said it is hard to see how frequencies can be improved with the limited capacity that is available and there would be a conflict of interest where coastal services have to share tracks with suburban services. Generally speaking I think SET do a reasonably good job, most of the complaints seem to be about ticket prices and over crowding which are not easily resolved.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know 315837 has been re painted into the crossrail livery

It hasn't though, it's been painted into a 'TfL.Rail' temporary livery, Crossrail will be different again. TfL don't want to tarnish the eventual Crossrail brand by putting it on existing stock.