Trial of of paper receipts for tickets issued on board the train

[Daz28]

Never a problem with opinions from people who are bringing a reasoned argument to the table.

It is probably more accurate to say "If it ain't broke, don't replace it with something that's broke."

It is mostly a question of cost. The CCST printer is the most expensive part of any ticket issuing system, whether portable or not. Each one is c. £1000 to purchase and is also the component that needs repair most frequently.

The reason that CCST printers are so expensive is simple - they are specialist devices. The industry chose the CCST format with the magstripe in an unusual location and bespoke encoding deliberately to make fraud more difficult. As a result the market for such devices is pretty small.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Long term the rail industry might be better off moving to smart cards (Oyster/Key like etc), which would possibly make it easier for guards, no need to carry a printer around when doing revenue duties. Would probably just need a way to update it's tickets database at each station (wifi?). Even better would be if they were all useable on all buses of every bus operator as well

 

[infobleep]

Buy a season ticket, then.

The national system is too complex for PAYG - I think the closest we will get is carnets for specific journeys.

I would love carnet tickets but it would require TOCs to corporate and I can't see them doing that.

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True. However, particularly if you go monthly or longer, they will be cheaper or at least no more expensive, and you will gain the convenience of not having to queue.

I believe Guildford to Portsmouth is cheaper buying daily than a season ticket even for regular journeys longer than a month, especially if you have e a discount card but perhaps even if you don't.

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[najaB]

Long term the rail industry might be better off moving to smart cards (Oyster/Key like etc), which would possibly make it easier for guards, no need to carry a printer around when doing revenue duties. Would probably just need a way to update it's tickets database at each station (wifi?). Even better would be if they were all useable on all buses of every bus operator as well

You've just described the ITSO smartcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which I'm unconvinced about. Before long, maybe 5 years, it will be possible for a guard's equipment to be online at all times. Then there is no barrier to true e-ticketing.


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[najaB]

Which I'm unconvinced about. Before long, maybe 5 years, it will be possible for a guard's equipment to be online at all times. Then there is no barrier to true e-ticketing.

True. However smartcard solutions are still going to be part of the mix as the demand for integrated urban transport will only get greater.

 

[radamfi]

Buy a season ticket, then.

The national system is too complex for PAYG - I think the closest we will get is carnets for specific journeys.

There's really no excuse for not offering mobile tickets that don't need to be collected for walk on tickets, especially for local journeys started at stations without ticket offices. This would be very convenient for people who buy a ticket most days but don't find a season ticket worthwhile. So no more need for queues at ticket offices or machines, or worse, having to buy a ticket at the destination. Metrolink now offer single and return tickets on the phone. Even the Dutch now offer mobile tickets nationwide even though they've got a nationwide smartcard.

Having said that, the Southern Key card copes with the complex fare system and deducts the most appropriate single or return fare depending on what you've travelled each day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. However smartcard solutions are still going to be part of the mix as the demand for integrated urban transport will only get greater.

I would argue that the contactless payment card (pre-pay if necessary) will replace them in most use-cases for lowish-fare walk-up city transport. There will be no need for a specific transport version.

Why would transport operators invest huge sums into something banks will do for them?

There might be a need for a basic smartcard to hold a pre-purchased season ticket (and that's assuming capping can't reasonably replace that, which for a medium-sized town's bus network it could), but that's it.

 

[najaB]

I would argue that the contactless payment card (pre-pay if necessary) will replace them in most use-cases for lowish-fare walk-up city transport. There will be no need for a specific transport version.

Not everyone will necessarily be able to get a contactless card. Not everyone who has one will necessarily want to use it. And, as far as I'm aware, there's no such thing as a Student or Old Person's contactless payment card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not everyone will necessarily be able to get a contactless card.

Everyone can get a pre-pay contactless card.

Not everyone who has one will necessarily want to use it.

As above.

And, as far as I'm aware, there's no such thing as a Student or Old Person's contactless payment card.

Do you mean with a discount? There can be ways to set up accounts for that, or to tie a simple RFID card (not a smartcard) to a payment means to handle it.

 

[yorksrob]

As long as they have their ready brek each morning theyll be fine

Ah, I always wondered what that glowing orange line around them was

 

[najaB]

Not everyone will necessarily be able to get a contactless card.

Everyone can get a pre-pay contactless card.

So, to take advantage of ticket-free travel I have to get a PAYG card but from the bank rather than the train/bus company.

Not everyone who has one will necessarily want to use it.

As above.

Sometimes there will be very good reasons to not want to use a contactless card. For examle, I have a personal contactless card, a company credit card and an Oyster card for when I travel to London for work. This works quite well for me as I can use my work credit card to top up my Oyster card. I cannot use it to top up a PAYG payment card (they are cash blocked). So I would either have to pay with my own card and claim back, or pay cash fares.

And, as far as I'm aware, there's no such thing as a Student or Old Person's contactless payment card.

Do you mean with a discount? There can be ways to set up accounts for that, or to tie a simple RFID card (not a smartcard) to a payment means to handle it.

So we end up with *another* card that isn't a smart card...

Much easier to just use smart cards - after all, they have just about gotten past the teething stages with ITSO.

 

[MikeWh]

as far as I'm aware, there's no such thing as a Student or Old Person's contactless payment card.

Do you mean with a discount? There can be ways to set up accounts for that, or to tie a simple RFID card (not a smartcard) to a payment means to handle it.

The barrier that TfL are currently struggling with is how to indicate that someone should be asked to show their discount entitlement. Otherwise what is to stop my Mum getting her senior railcard discount attached to a contactless payment card which she then gives to me to use for discounted travel? I don't see banks allowing other companies to write additional information onto the payment card. If you have any good ideas then I'm sure they'd like to know about them.

 

[RailAleFan]

The barrier that TfL are currently struggling with is how to indicate that someone should be asked to show their discount entitlement. Otherwise what is to stop my Mum getting her senior railcard discount attached to a contactless payment card which she then gives to me to use for discounted travel?

Some stadia smartcard entry systems use a "traffic light" system on the inside which is sometimes monitored by customer service personnel (but not always, just like gatelines are often left open). Lights above each turnstile indicate the status of the ticket used - adult , child, concession etc. so if somebody enters that doesn't appear to match the traffic light indication they can be asked for the relevant ID to accompany their ticket...

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, to take advantage of ticket-free travel I have to get a PAYG card but from the bank rather than the train/bus company.

Yes. The transport operator could even partner with a bank to promote one.

Sometimes there will be very good reasons to not want to use a contactless card. For examle, I have a personal contactless card, a company credit card and an Oyster card for when I travel to London for work. This works quite well for me as I can use my work credit card to top up my Oyster card. I cannot use it to top up a PAYG payment card (they are cash blocked). So I would either have to pay with my own card and claim back, or pay cash fares.

Or your employer could join the 21st century and give you a contactless work credit card, like mine. Then you just use that to travel on business. No Oyster needed. If you need a receipt, register it against an account and print one out.

So we end up with *another* card that isn't a smart card...

Much easier to just use smart cards - after all, they have just about gotten past the teething stages with ITSO.

No, not much easier, much more expensive. The smartcard is a stopgap - it is only needed because every bus, train and barrier can't be online. Give it 5 years and it will be viable that they are - then who needs anything more than a simple identifier?
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I don't see banks allowing other companies to write additional information onto the payment card. If you have any good ideas then I'm sure they'd like to know about them.

You don't write it onto the payment card, you store it on the back-end. But even if that isn't viable, you don't need a smartcard. You just need an identifier (simple RFID) with a payment card tagged to it in the back-end.

 

[WillPS]

The barrier that TfL are currently struggling with is how to indicate that someone should be asked to show their discount entitlement. Otherwise what is to stop my Mum getting her senior railcard discount attached to a contactless payment card which she then gives to me to use for discounted travel? I don't see banks allowing other companies to write additional information onto the payment card. If you have any good ideas then I'm sure they'd like to know about them.

Even if they did I don't see how that would prevent the scenario you outlined. The only thing I can think of would be getting the banks to print mugshots on the cards themselves (as RBS trialed about 12 years ago). I did a survey recently for Barclaycard where they indicated they might offer it in the future.

It's difficult to see the banks making it mandatory though, even though I think that would be a good idea.

Edit - I misunderstood - couldn't they themselves have a table of card numbers and discount entitlements which is consulted every time a tap happens?

 

[causton]

What people seem to not be understanding is how does the ticket barrier or validator know to apply a discount?

The Oyster validators can not write anything to a contactless payment card to indicate any discount entitlement or anything like that, so there would be no way of checking on-board or otherwise that the person has to show a discount.

The only solution would be the bank physically prints the discount on the card and you have to then replace the card when your railcard or discount entitlement (JCP etc) expires...

 

[najaB]

Or your employer could join the 21st century and give you a contactless work credit card, like mine.

Because, as usual, what goes for you is (a) best; and (b) goes for everyone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because, as usual, what goes for you is (a) best; and (b) goes for everyone.

Why would you want the additional adminstrative step?

 

[causton]

Or your employer could join the 21st century and give you a contactless work credit card, like mine. Then you just use that to travel on business. No Oyster needed. If you need a receipt, register it against an account and print one out.

That is good for you but 95% of people who come to buy paper tickets for work and use their contactless corporate credit card will still get a paper ticket and a printed receipt if I suggest they use the contactless capability. They do not want to register online and worry about the ambiguity of what they have been charged.

 

[najaB]

Why would you want the additional adminstrative step?

Because it means one line on my expenses report rather than several.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is good for you but 95% of people who come to buy paper tickets for work and use their contactless corporate credit card will still get a paper ticket and a printed receipt if I suggest they use the contactless capability. They do not want to register online and worry about the ambiguity of what they have been charged.

Then they can buy paper tickets!

My point is that smartcards are an expensive and pointless anachronism once contactless bank cards are widely available.

 

[najaB]

Then they can buy paper tickets!

My point is that smartcards are an expensive and pointless anachronism once contactless bank cards are widely available.

Interesting that you call smartcards anachronistic and suggest buying paper tickets in the same post!

Oyster's popularity hasn't been significantly dented by the advent of Contactless payments, and I don't see it going away any time soon. If for no other reason than people not wanting to have to get their main financial instrument out every time they want to pass a barrier / catch a bus.

 

[radamfi]

I have cashed in my Oyster cards now that we have contactless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that you call smartcards anachronistic and suggest buying paper tickets in the same post!

Paper tickets can, in the future, be issued as e-tickets - a number/barcode on a bit of paper.

Oyster's popularity hasn't been significantly dented by the advent of Contactless payments, and I don't see it going away any time soon. If for no other reason than people not wanting to have to get their main financial instrument out every time they want to pass a barrier / catch a bus.

And Oyster is being replaced in fairly short order with a back-office-controlled non-smart RFID version.

 

[edwin_m]

And Oyster is being replaced in fairly short order with a back-office-controlled non-smart RFID version.

It will still need some degree of smartness, as a dumb RFID tag would be easy enough to fake.

 

[infobleep]

Everyone can get a pre-pay contactless card.



As above.



Do you mean with a discount? There can be ways to set up accounts for that, or to tie a simple RFID card (not a smartcard) to a payment means to handle it.

If there is a way to tie in discounts, why don't TfL offer it on contactless or is it something they will be doing in due course?

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[Clip]

Then they can buy paper tickets!

My point is that smartcards are an expensive and pointless anachronism once contactless bank cards are widely available.

And time and time again people tell you that not everyone wants to use contactless to make their journeys and are more than happy with their Oyster/Smartcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will still need some degree of smartness, as a dumb RFID tag would be easy enough to fake.

Often it's cheaper to take the hit than to overcomplicate. Credit cards very much work this way.

 

[edwin_m]

Often it's cheaper to take the hit than to overcomplicate. Credit cards very much work this way.

That's OK with random events, but less so when there are people actively attempting to break whatever system you introduce, and as soon as that happens you have to scrap it and introduce a new one.

I would expect the type of system used for contactless bank cards, for which much larger sums are at stake, to be sufficiently secure in a TfL-type application where effectively it is just a means of identification. But a RFID tag that always emits the same code when interrogated would be vulnerable to being read by a suitable receiver and cloned (as I believe has happened with RF car keys).

Incidentally barcodes are extremely secure for one-off tickets because only a small proportion of a huge number of possible codes is actually used, once used it won't be re-used for a long time, and the system will detect an un-issued code or one being re-used. But they do need a highly reliable connection to the back office, otherwise it would be possible for one to be used multiple times. They are more problematic for tickets that can be used multiple times or can be kept and used some time after they are issued.