Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[BestWestern]

It's possibly worth bearing in mind that Sussex Police have obtained a court order for the air accident investigation team to release information in connection with the accident at Shoeham which I believe is a first.

Seems to there is a danger it might also set a precedent not only for air accidents but for rail as well.

They wouldn't release their findings to the police?! That's a but odd, isn't it?!

 

[Barn]

They wouldn't release their findings to the police?! That's a but odd, isn't it?!

With the air investigators that is because of a specific requirement of an international treaty. The purpose is to encourage cooperation with safety regulators regardless of the quality of the policing / justice systems in a country. Only a court can order release applying a strict test of necessity.

I think even with the court order they only got certain elements.

 

[Bellbell]

I'm loathe to reignite this discussion in some ways but I've been reading around general articles on future proof jobs lately - randomly saw one then linked through to a few more. I am a guard currently, and support the role entirely. I'm also a realist and see the job changing even if it doesn't entirely disappear. What do you think the timelines would be/are for guards?

 

[danbarnstall]

I'm loathe to reignite this discussion in some ways but I've been reading around general articles on future proof jobs lately - randomly saw one then linked through to a few more. I am a guard currently, and support the role entirely. I'm also a realist and see the job changing even if it doesn't entirely disappear. What do you think the timelines would be/are for guards?

If you are in a Guards position already you're probably ok medium term in some sort of capacity. Most companies looking to run down the Guards grade have all guaranteed continued employment. Put yourself forward for any courses they offer, keep your nose clean and ensure you are a valued employee. You'll be fine

 

[redbutton]

I'm loathe to reignite this discussion in some ways but I've been reading around general articles on future proof jobs lately - randomly saw one then linked through to a few more. I am a guard currently, and support the role entirely. I'm also a realist and see the job changing even if it doesn't entirely disappear. What do you think the timelines would be/are for guards?

Well even at GTR, the guards still have jobs. Just not the ones they signed up for.

But as you say, realistically technology moves so fast nowadays that there will be changes to nearly every job in the world in the coming years. It's madness to try to stop it. However, that's not to say that employees and trade unions shouldn't try their hardest to guide the change in a way that is most beneficial to them.

 

[kw12]

RMT talks to take place today, hosted by conciliation service Acas.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-38958234

Talks between the Rail Maritime and Transport Workers union (RMT) and Southern rail have broken down.
Conciliation service Acas confirmed discussions ended without the two sides reaching agreement and there are no plans to resume on Wednesday.
Southern's parent firm Govia Thameslink (GTR) said it had hoped to end the 10-month row over guards' roles on trains but were "saddened" talks had ended...

 

[DarloRich]

is there a potential deal on the table then?

 

[infobleep]

RMT talks to take place today, hosted by conciliation service Acas.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-38958234

The article doesn't mention it but are TUC involved in this at all?

 

[Barn]

The article doesn't mention it but are TUC involved in this at all?

After the RMT said that the TUC had 'betrayed' them and had 'cooked up a stitch up', I rather suspect that they may have burnt that bridge.

 

[pompeyfan]

Breaking news says that the talks have broken down (again!). Personally think this is a bad move by the RMT. They've lost this battle, withdraw, regroup and go in with proposals that could actually be met.

 

[313103]

Breaking news says that the talks have broken down (again!). Personally think this is a bad move by the RMT. They've lost this battle, withdraw, regroup and go in with proposals that could actually be met.

And what proposals do you actually think the RMT could possibly do other then selling out those that haven't already been sold out?

The only thing left for them at this stage is to just accept what is left on the table which is nothing.

 

[pompeyfan]

And what proposals do you actually think the RMT could possibly do other then selling out those that haven't already been sold out?

The only thing left for them at this stage is to just accept what is left on the table which is nothing.

I'm a guard myself so I understand what's at stake, they should have agreed to what southern wanted, but found a way to bind them to it, tie them up, concentrate on getting the best for the ones that have been shafted.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'm a guard myself so I understand what's at stake, they should have agreed to what southern wanted, but found a way to bind them to it, tie them up, concentrate on getting the best for the ones that have been shafted.

I suspect part of the problem is that Southern and ASLEF have a different opinion on what they have agreed. it will be interesting to see when the agreement 1st gets challenged.

 

[Deepgreen]

I suspect part of the problem is that Southern and ASLEF have a different opinion on what they have agreed. it will be interesting to see when the agreement 1st gets challenged.

I would have hoped that the independent adjudicators' role would have included ensuring that the agreement was crystal clear, but, no, the vague muddle appears to continue. Shambolic, with all involved conducting themselves, at best, very unprofessionally.

 

[Barn]

The crucial point is whether a strike is an 'unauthorised absence'.

The cynical part of me suspects that Aslef does actually understand what the agreement means but it is not in its interests currently to admit that, whilst the RMT dispute is still active and its own referendum is taking place.

If it ever came down to it, the "GTR breaks agreement" story would probably gain more traction than an "Aslef didn't insist on clear enough wording" story.

 

[infobleep]

After the RMT said that the TUC had 'betrayed' them and had 'cooked up a stitch up', I rather suspect that they may have burnt that bridge.

Is there another union who would mediate? Unison perhaps? Again with a TOC director there too.

 

[Carlisle]

I'm a guard myself so I understand what's at stake, they should have agreed to what southern wanted, but found a way to bind them to it, tie them up, concentrate on getting the best for the ones that have been shafted.

I guess RMT now face the dilemma that agreeing a set of circumstances for no second person on Southern would invalidate any harder position they may attempt to take with northern or Mersyrail in those disputes

 

[pompeyfan]

I guess RMT now face the dilemma that agreeing a set of circumstances for no second person on Southern would invalidate any harder position they may attempt to take with northern or Mersyrail in those disputes

Yes, I did think that myself when writing it. How do they now do best by their current Guards, while still doing the best for the OBSs. Tricky one.

 

[Mag_seven]

Another strike announced:

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-new-strikes-on-southern-rail/

"RAIL UNION RMT confirmed today that guards and drivers on Southern Rail will strike again on the 22nd February in the on-going disputes over the safety impact of the extension of Driver Only Operation and the removal of guards from services.

Members will strike for 24 hours between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Wednesday 22nd February 2017.

The announcement comes after talks between RMT and Southern in the guards dispute were deliberately wrecked yesterday by the company as they made a mockery of the negotiating process and chose to completely ignore the safety issues at the heart of the matter."

 

[speedy_sticks]

ABCD - Letter addressing DOO concerns.

https://abcommuters.wordpress.com/2...e-answers-letter-to-charles-horton-from-abcd/

 

[Barn]

Another strike announced:

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-new-strikes-on-southern-rail/

"RAIL UNION RMT confirmed today that guards and drivers on Southern Rail will strike again on the 22nd February in the on-going disputes over the safety impact of the extension of Driver Only Operation and the removal of guards from services.

Members will strike for 24 hours between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Wednesday 22nd February 2017.

The announcement comes after talks between RMT and Southern in the guards dispute were deliberately wrecked yesterday by the company as they made a mockery of the negotiating process and chose to completely ignore the safety issues at the heart of the matter."

This is just throwing away their members' money.

 

[JamesTT]

This is just throwing away their members' money.

Surely that depends on the result of the ASLEF referendum

 

[Barn]

Surely that depends on the result of the ASLEF referendum

If that goes the wrong way it'll just be two unions throwing away their money. At least the drivers would have made the decision themselves though.

 

[Barn]

Or perhaps they are trying to test the interpretation of the Aslef agreement...

 

[SprinterMan]

http://www.aslef.org.uk/article.php?group_id=5339

‘It has been suggested that this deal is a strike breaker’s charter. It isn’t.
Because a strike is a lawful, known absence – that’s why we have a ballot and give seven days’ notice – so a strike cannot be construed as an “unauthorised absence”.

If this is the case. All hell will break loose and things will be back to hownthey were before the ASLEF agreement

 

[SprinterMan]

Or perhaps they are trying to test the interpretation of the Asked agreement...

This seems likely .....

 

[SA_900]

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[JamesTT]

In the agreement was any mention specifically made referencing industrial action being one of the exceptional circumstances in which trains can run sans obs?

 

[pompeyfan]

I refuse to believe ASLEF members will reject what's on offer.

Why is that?

 

[SA_900]

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