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Religion and Culture - what comes first?

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meridian2

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Science is a process. You identify the questions, you set about finding the answers, and you answer the questions. In the process, you'll usually find that there are even more unanswered questions (the "unknown unknowns") and you go about answering them. No scientist will ever claim that they have all the answers; in fact they can't even claim that they know all the questions that need to be answered. But science is about the processes of finding out. Consciousness is a complex topic, but the only way to find out how it works is to investigate it. That is what science is doing. And we understand lots about the nature of consciousness. We know how consciousness can be altered - in fact, in my day-to-day job, I deliberately alter consciousness through well understood biochemical mechanisms.

Let's compare to religion. Christianity has the Bible and... that's really it. One book (or, rather, collection of books) whose authors are largely unknown and hasn't been updated in well over a thousand (nigh on two thousand) years. Everything else is just a derivation from that (and it's been well derived, into tens of thousands of competing denominations). Religion has not contributed to the scientific process - in fact, many religious people (you appear to be one of them) dismiss the scientific process on the basis of belief. There are people in America who don't believe in evolution and advocate teaching literal biblical creationism in science classrooms, ignoring the actual science. The Bible has been proven wrong on many occasions and relies not on evidence but on blind faith.



With respect, I don't care what you believe, I am more interested in what you can demonstrate to me. Demonstrate to me that God is omnipresent in human consciousness. You'll win a Nobel prize, international fame and a million dollars so it should be worthwhile.
Science is a method of observing repeated physical phenomena, it does not deal in prime causes or ontological primitives. Your link to the neurological origins of serial killers didn't open for me, so I can't comment but would be very surprised if it represented mainstream science. Neurology can map changes in brain chemistry and electrical activity, not consciousness. We know how conscious experience can be altered (fatigue, alcohol and drugs, brain injury, anaesthesia, etc), each can alter or occlude the conscious experience but none of those deal in the origins of consciousness. I'm convinced that consciousness will not be found to originate in the brain, but occurs as a primary influence upon it, something close to Idealism or Panpsychism. Demonstrate to me where consciousness resides in the brain, and you'll win the Nobel prize. With respect I do care what you believe and I'd like you to demonstrate the proofs that determine it without hand waving or promise notes.

If you're going to treat young earth creationism as the only alternative to philosophical materialism, you're going to have a very short conversation.
 
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meridian2

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:lol::lol::lol:

This has to be the greatest single sentence ever written on this forum. I... :lol: I have no words :lol:
Smilies are fun, but no substitute for reasoned on topic debate. That leads to truth as a popularity contest, and playground politics.
 

AlterEgo

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You take a fundamentalist approach to thread derailment. If you look through the thread all my responses...

I never said who derailed the thread, btw - it wasn't just you. But you seem to have a guilty conscience.

It's not possible to have a reasoned debate with someone who rejects what they call "mainstream" science, who places primacy in their religion and personal beliefs, and reverts to "well, God then" once it's discovered that a situation can't be explained by science.

We live in a free society so you are welcome to have and express those beliefs - which I repeat, are just beliefs and nothing more.

However there is nothing to be gained in the slightest by engaging on a rational plane with you, and hence this is my last post which will refer to anything you say.
 

meridian2

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I never said who derailed the thread, btw - it wasn't just you. But you seem to have a guilty conscience.

It's not possible to have a reasoned debate with someone who rejects what they call "mainstream" science, who places primacy in their religion and personal beliefs, and reverts to "well, God then" once it's discovered that a situation can't be explained by science.

We live in a free society so you are welcome to have and express those beliefs - which I repeat, are just beliefs and nothing more.

However there is nothing to be gained in the slightest by engaging on a rational plane with you, and hence this is my last post which will refer to anything you say.
As you claimed thread derailment at one of my contributions previously, I assumed you took an uncompromising stance on any deviation from your thread title, and I'm not aware of any deviation either way. At no point have I made a god of the gaps argument in this thread or elsewhere. I don't reject scientific methodology, quite the contrary, but I am wholly unconvinced by the materialist hegemony and the circular reasoning it promotes. I always attempt to use reason to support my conclusions, and evidence where appropriate. All knowledge is a form of belief, the only proofs are alcohol and mathematics.
 

me123

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Science is a method of observing repeated physical phenomena, it does not deal in prime causes or ontological primitives.

Science does deal in the understandings of human consciousness and behaviour. There are whole disciplines of science that study this.

Your link to the neurological origins of serial killers didn't open for me, so I can't comment but would be very surprised if it represented mainstream science.

It's been published by scientists in a reputable, peer reviewed journal. Doesn't get more mainstream than that in the scientific world. I've just checked and I'm definitely not signed in to Athens and the link works well for me, so there seems to be a problem on your end. Maybe you can access the article through the link above (it's actually the most viewed article from the journal apparently).

Neurology can map changes in brain chemistry and electrical activity, not consciousness. We know how conscious experience can be altered (fatigue, alcohol and drugs, brain injury, anaesthesia, etc), each can alter or occlude the conscious experience but none of those deal in the origins of consciousness. I'm convinced that consciousness will not be found to originate in the brain, but occurs as a primary influence upon it, something close to Idealism or Panpsychism.

If consciousness doesn't originate in the brain, where do you think it does originate from? It's the only part of the body that participates in these functions, so presumably something outside our body? Because there's no evidence that we're linked to anything else.

Demonstrate to me where consciousness resides in the brain, and you'll win the Nobel prize. With respect I do care what you believe and I'd like you to demonstrate the proofs that determine it without hand waving or promise notes.

The frontal lobe. There are more questions, without doubt, but science already knows where in the brain consciousness resides. The how is a more tricky question.

You still don't understand the process of science. Here you are yet again claiming that science doesn't know everything and therefore it can be discounted. I will, yet again, remind you that the science knows it doesn't know everything, and is about finding the answers. Answers that are demonstrable. Religion and other supernatural nonsense creates answers out of nothing.

If you're going to treat young earth creationism as the only alternative to philosophical materialism, you're going to have a very short conversation.

I might just do that, a shorter conversation would be better all round here. :roll:

You may not understand what I did there, but I used young earth creationism as an example of people assuming that their religious beliefs stand alongside or above real science. I have no idea where you stand on the age of the Earth, and I frankly don't want to find out. But your assertion that consciousness comes from an external source is an extraordinary belief that has no scientific evidence, yet like the young earth creationists you assume that it is as valid as scientific data.

Smilies are fun, but no substitute for reasoned on topic debate. That leads to truth as a popularity contest, and playground politics.

I sat laughing at that sentence for about five solid minutes. It is truly hilarious and ridiculous. I make no apology for using smilies; I couldn't stop laughing and I found that the best way to express that was using the smilie provided in the forum software.
 
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meridian2

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I have no idea where you stand on the age of the Earth, and I frankly don't want to find out. But your assertion that consciousness comes from an external source is an extraordinary belief that has no scientific evidence, yet like the young earth creationists you assume that it is as valid as scientific data.
Frankly, I find your intellectual pomposity laughable, so I'm not going to address points arising from such hubris individually. However for those who are interested and actually watch links, here's one from a former materialist who worked on the CERN project that deals with your points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m7BxlWlvzc
 

Tetchytyke

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the Bible has been proven wrong on many things (Noah's ark didn't happen, the creation story didn't happen...) yet this continues to get pushed by some Christians as irrefutable fact.

Part of the problem with the Bible is that it was written by primitive people who didn't know what we know. There is evidence to suggest there was localised flooding and it's pretty likely Moses walked across a tidal mud flat rather than parting the waves. But equally there's no way people like Noah lived for 950 years or that Moses lived for 130.

Some of the Bible is misunderstanding, some of it is folk tale, some of it is allegorical. Which is why you simply cannot take it at face value. The scary people are those that do.
 

najaB

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Some of the Bible is misunderstanding, some of it is folk tale, some of it is allegorical. Which is why you simply cannot take it at face value. The scary people are those that do.
Reminds me of this:
[youtube]suRzway95yI[/youtube]
 

me123

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Frankly, I find your intellectual pomposity laughable, so I'm not going to address points arising from such hubris individually. However for those who are interested and actually watch links, here's one from a former materialist who worked on the CERN project that deals with your points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m7BxlWlvzc

Out of respect I have watched that video. I found the video editing very distracting, so I haven't watched the whole thing, but I have listened to it all. I'll address his claims below:

1) I have never said that our psyche is entirely under the control of our own volition. However, the assertion he makes that reality comes from consciousness doesn't necessarily follow. He's made a huge logical leap there. We may well each perceive different "realities" that are influenced by our psyches, but I would not say that that is necessarily reality.
2) I do not think reality is created inside our heads, but I do think it is possible that we each perceive reality in a different way but that will never be definitely testable (I cannot inhabit your psyche, for example). I think it is actually unlikely.
3) Here, Kastrup fails to actually say what consciousness comes from. He ridicules the idea that consciousness is generated by the brain, but doesn't really offer much of an alternative.
4) Ah, an argument I've used to a degree, and one I would agree with. The assertion that a syringe of propofol (which alters consciousness) is in itself a "process in consciousness" is very bizarre. I understand how propofol works; it suppresses consciousness largely by interaction with GABA receptors. It works on a molecular level to inhibit neurotransmitters and induce a state of anaesthesia. All very physical.
5) There is no reason to believe that our bodies aren't separate. He hypothesises a "collective unconscious (?)" but doesn't give any evidence to support it.
6) Again, he hypothesises a subconscious that we can't perceive because it is "obfuscated" by the conscious. But this isn't an argument I'd buy into anyway.
7) To buy this argument, we again need a "collective unconscious". Again, I need evidence that such a thing exists.
8) I don't buy into this argument. But, yet again, he makes assertions that simply don't have evidence. There is no evidence that our consciousness continues after our physical death.
9) This isn't an argument I'm making. Our bodies perceive and interpret the stimuli that we know as colour, taste etc. But they all directly correlate with the real world. Colour is our interpretation of the wavelength of light. Taste and smell are created in response to specific molecules triggering specific receptors in the oral and nasal cavities. These things still exist outwith our brains. What I perceive as red may not be what you perceive as red (we will never know if this is true or not), but it's irrelevant as we would both agree that we are seeing what we call red. It is independent of us. It is still red. And red is a manifestation of light at wavelengths in the 600-700nm range. We cannot directly perceive light outwith the 400-700nm wavelength, but it is demonstrably there.
10) He has jumped here to saying that consciousness generates the universe without saying why.

He may be right, I don't know. But he needs to actually provide evidence for his claims or they are meaningless. He'll probably claim that he doesn't need evidence because consciousness is supernatural. He doesn't really deal with my points (although to be fair I wouldn't expect someone on youtube to make a video that responds to a post on a railway forum that hasn't been made yet). He addresses some of them. He keeps saying that assumptions are being made, yet he seems to make lots more himself.

Maybe I'll buy his book someday and give it a read, perhaps he addresses his points better through the medium of the written word. I've got a long reading list though. He hasn't convinced me here. I had maybe hoped that he would have given me at least a reason to buy his book and consider his arguments better.

Since you "find [my] intellectual pomposity laughable", I won't be replying to your posts again. Perhaps if you had the decency to address my points rather than just launch into other arguments then we'd have somewhere to go with this.
 
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bnm

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An attempt at philosophical debate on RailUK. Well I never.

Polarised views very quickly. Anyone mentioned Hitler yet?
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Oh damn. :p
 
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meridian2

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me123;2929190 Since you "find [my said:
intellectual pomposity laughable", I won't be replying to your posts again. Perhaps if you had the decency to address my points rather than just launch into other arguments then we'd have somewhere to go with this.
You can hardly say things like I don't care what you think about the age of the earth, or hilarious, ridiculous and extraordinary to things merely because you disagree with them without coming across as a bit self-important.

However as you have at least bothered to watch the link, I will reply. Kastrup is a philosophical Idealist, that is to say he finds the most parsimonious conclusion to be drawn about the nature of reality is that consciousness is primary, in other words consciousness is what reality does. If true, it's difficult to imagine a mechanism that would satisfy a materialist, which doesn't mean it isn't true of course. Kastrup argues a good case against materialism (as a recovering materialist one would expect nothing less), whether it's matched by his advocacy of Idealism is another matter. This video is a few years old and he has developed his theories somewhat since then, but bear in mind he is/was a working scientist, not a professional philosopher. I can't imagine Kastrup using the term supernatural for any of his hypotheses, as he says at the end he's not offering mysticism or religion of any kind and I find nothing in his conclusions that warrant such prejudicial language.

Taking testimony like near death experiences, psi effects, precognition in the round, phenomena which yield to scientific analysis to varying degrees, I believe there are tentative inferences that consciousness is non-localised. If so, and Radin's research is as good a starting point as any, consciousness may yet prove to be a primary facet of reality, and it's rules represented by another -ology beneath physics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-DOXie3FmI
 

fowler9

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Personally speaking and taking this back to a very basic level I can't accept taking anything we can't explain yet and saying it is God. Especially since peoples concept of god seems to vary so wildly that they can't possibly all be right.
 

meridian2

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Personally speaking and taking this back to a very basic level I can't accept taking anything we can't explain yet and saying it is God. Especially since peoples concept of god seems to vary so wildly that they can't possibly all be right.
I certainly agree regarding the varieties of god on offer, and I'm equally atheistic towards most of them. However my interest in the subject was spurred by a close reading of materialist origins of the universe, and finding them absurdly inflationary and faith based. God of the gaps arguments are predicated around a god who is an external designer, an ill-tempered, separate onlooker, a superannuated version of man himself, a super hero turned celestial mechanic. That god is as unlikely as multiverse theory.
 

fowler9

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I certainly agree regarding the varieties of god on offer, and I'm equally atheistic towards most of them. However my interest in the subject was spurred by a close reading of materialist origins of the universe, and finding them absurdly inflationary and faith based. God of the gaps arguments are predicated around a god who is an external designer, an ill-tempered, separate onlooker, a superannuated version of man himself, a super hero turned celestial mechanic. That god is as unlikely as multiverse theory.

It is certainly quite mind bending, just trying to comprehend infinity melts my brain. I am personally an atheist as regards all gods and I doubt science will ever be able to explain everything within the blink of billions of billions of years within which time we will have ceased to exist as we know it.If I am wrong I apologise to all of the many gods that so many people believe in. I don't mean that as an insult to anyone who is a person of faith, most of whom believe in living life in a way which I believe is common sense rather than a message from god (Treat everyone the way you would want to be treated). Anyway, no offence intended to anyone who is religious.
 

Groningen

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Culture comes of course first; not everyone is religious. Your values need not to be ours. With our mentality we can not be a German or other nationality. Difficult to explain, but so do i see it.
 

DarloRich

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It must be culture as religion is a fantasy based on fairy stories about a myth of someone with magical powers. We as a society have decided that Christian myths are more worthy of worship than, say, Norse myths. But why should God be more true than Odin?

God does not exist. There, i have said it. Why does he not strike me down for such blatant apostasy and blasphemy? The bible tells me he did in the past. Why did he withdraw from the smiting business? The answer will be that god gave humans free will. That was pretty stupid for an omnipotent being. Surely he must have known we would doubt him Why did he not make us unthinking drones devoted to his word and action? The whole thing is a con and lie.

PS why did he send his only son to earth to save us during the Roman period rather than, say, WW1? Why not come when Hitler was gassing millions and Stalin working millions more to death? Why not come during the crusades to show all people of faith that war is evil? Why? because it is a lie.
 
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meridian2

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It must be culture as religion is a fantasy based on fairy stories about what are myths. We as a society have decided that Christian myths are more worthy of worship than, say, Norse myths.

God does not exist. Why does he not strike me down for such blatant apostasy and blasphemy? The bible tells me he did in the past. Why did he withdraw from the smiting business? The answer will be that god gave humans free will. That was pretty stupid for an omnipotent being. Surely he must have known we would doubt him Why did he not make us unthinking drones devoted to his word and action? The whole thing is a con and lie.

PS why did he send his only son to earth to save us during the Roman period rather than, say, WW1? Why not come when Hitler was gassing millions and Stalin working millions more to death? Why not come during the crusades to show all people of faith that was was evil? Why? because it is a lie.
Even if all that were true (and it contains a number of logical fallacies), you're stuck with the problem of consciousness emerging from dumb matter, for which there are no serious theoretical models, and a huge degree of intellectual and emotional redundancy none of which is essential for survival. Humanity is incredibly unfortunate to have a knowledge of its own demise, the capacity to fall in love, write poetry, explore the cosmos and negotiate philosophy, when its physical needs are satisfied by shelter, a decent meal and the occasional s**g. Given that humanity is hamstrung by such distractions, it is hardly surprising that it reflects upon the source of such prodigious and unnecessary capabilities, that run so far in excess of its physical limitations.
 

DarloRich

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Even if all that were true (and it contains a number of logical fallacies), you're stuck with the problem of consciousness emerging from dumb matter, for which there are no serious theoretical models, and a huge degree of intellectual and emotional redundancy none of which is essential for survival. Humanity is incredibly unfortunate to have a knowledge of its own demise, the capacity to fall in love, write poetry, explore the cosmos and negotiate philosophy, when its physical needs are satisfied by shelter, a decent meal and the occasional s**g. Given that humanity is hamstrung by such distractions, it is hardly surprising that it reflects upon the source of such prodigious and unnecessary capabilities, that run so far in excess of its physical limitations.

nice words - but no real answer. If god made us then he made all of the things you suggest happen. Why, therefore, did he allow us to doubt him?
 

WelshBluebird

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Even if all that were true (and it contains a number of logical fallacies), you're stuck with the problem of consciousness emerging from dumb matter, for which there are no serious theoretical models

Just because we do not currently know does not mean we should automatically assume some magical being.
 

DarloRich

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I don't believe in your god.

then you believe in none.

Still no answer to the questions so I will ask them again:

Why did an omnipent being ( who, we are told, can see and know our every action) allow for a system whereby I can doubt him?
Why does he allow evil?
Why did his son come during the Roman period?
Why did he not smite Hitler?
Where was the fire and the brimstone then when millions of co coreligionists were being gassed and murdered and entire peoples wiped out? Where was your god then? What was he doing that was so important that millions of his people could be so easily destroyed? Why did he not stop it?
Has he forsaken US?

Why are there no answers to these simple questions?
 
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meridian2

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then you believe in none.

Still no answer to the questions so I will ask them again:

Why did an omnipent being ( who, we are told, can see and know our every action) allow for a system whereby I can doubt him? Why does he allow evil? Why did his son come during the Roman period? Why did he not smite Hitler? Where was the fire and the brimstone then when millions of co coreligionists were being gassed and murdered and entire peoples wiped out? Where was your god then? What was he doing that was so important that millions of his people could be so easily destroyed? Why did he not stop it? Has he forsaken US?

Why are there no answers to these simple questions?
What you're doing is attempting to frame the terms of the discussion, dictate what is and is not evidence, and say which colours are allowed on the canvas. I don't believe in the god you're offering therefore I can believe in none?! Who says? You've taken a vengeful Old Testament progenitor, and insist that archetype has to stand for all and any gods because no others are available? Tell me what triggered the Big Bang (a theory originated by a Catholic priest), how consciousness arises from unconscious matter and I'll trade my ontology with yours.
 

meridian2

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Just because we do not currently know does not mean we should automatically assume some magical being.
I don't believe in magic or the supernatural. That does not mean that physical science has all the answers with a few loose ends to be tied up, nothing in the history of science can suggest such a thing. We may know almost nothing about the nature of reality, for example the role of mind is terra incognita. It's promissory to insist science will not only have all the answers given enough time, but the answers will emerge from exactly the same framework as the currently dominant paradigm.
 

DarloRich

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What you're doing is attempting to frame the terms of the discussion, dictate what is and is not evidence, and say which colours are allowed on the canvas. I don't believe in the god you're offering therefore I can believe in none?! Who says? You've taken a vengeful Old Testament progenitor, and insist that archetype has to stand for all and any gods because no others are available? Tell me what triggered the Big Bang (a theory originated by a Catholic priest), how consciousness arises from unconscious matter and I'll trade my ontology with yours.

no idea - your view, no doubt, is that God did it: mine is that we don't understand this yet but science will deliver an answer in due course.

Once again you deliver lots of nice words but no answers. Why cant you answer any questions? They are simple questions. I note your answer to any questions about god is to try and blame the questioner. Why cant you answer? Is it because your answer is simply: faith?

Lets start with one question: Why did God send his only son to earth ( to save us) during the roman period?
 

meridian2

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Lets start with one question: Why did God send his only son to earth ( to save us) during the roman period?
Are we talking about an exclusively Christian take on a deity? That at least might limit your rant to something we can discuss.
 
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