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HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

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21C101

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Why not the A34? Then you only jammed in Stratford, not two places.

But yes, HS2 could be as big a leap forwards for Sheggield and Leeds-Birmingham but it sounds like it will not be.
I went M40/A40/A34/A429/M40/M42/M5/M6 to Manchester a few times in circa 1990 to get to University in Manchester without having to endure getting from South Lindon to the M1 (A214 to Wandsworth Bridge then up to the M4; West Cross Route and A40(M) which avoided Stratford.

The A34 (now A44 and A3400) was a bit of a goat track though.

It is now quite absurd to see a sign on the A6 at the junction by Salford Station with A34 on it when the A34 is lodged in the mind as an expressway from Bicester to Winchester

I never plucked up the courage to go all the way up the A34 from Oxford to Salford.

Did the A6 across the peaks a couple of times
also M67, A628 to Woodhead, then M1, M18, A1(M)/A1, A14, M11, M15 (secret) A406, then through the then near deserted with nice new roads Royal Docks Docklands to Blavkwall Tunnel, then the only fast bit of the South Circular before nipping down to the little known dual carriageway Jevington Way and Southend Way which got you virtually to Crystal Palace. I dread to think how long that would take these days.
 
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Ianno87

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It is now quite absurd to see a sign on the A6 at the junction by Salford Station with A34 on it when the A34 is lodged in the mind as an expressway from Bicester to Winchester.

Why do you think the station is called "Manchester Oxford Road"? ;)
 

swt_passenger

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By the way my view is all the Tory questions are rigged and Boris knows what's going to be asked as he generally has a prepared answer for even the most esoteric questions so maybe we will be surprised in the morning.
That’s how it’s always worked, on both sides. It’s only the opposition questions that are real…
 

Mikey C

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I love how a thread about cancellation of part of HS2 has turned into a discussion of the roads which the M40 extension replaced... :D
Meanwhile on SABRE, the M40 thread has been sidetracked into a discussion on rail improvements in Yorkshire :D
 

21C101

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*However*, even if you 4-tracked Welwyn that would still limit you to +2tph long distance south of Woolmer Green because of how well the current TT is optimised around the constraint (as I previously explained), regardless of what you did on the rest of the route.

It's alot of expense and disruption, for a very small service benefit.
In a spirit of compromise you are right to say that you would only get two or perhaps squeeze three paths by four tracking Welwyn if you did nothing else.

I don't think the something elses though would cost anywhere near as much as Welwyn, and some of the something elses (Hitchin and Werrington) are done already and under construction.

Out of interest, was there always a two track section north of Huntingdon or was it rationalised from four track?
 

Ianno87

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Out of interest, was there always a two track section north of Huntingdon or was it rationalised from four track?

I *think* the bit across the Fen north of Holme/Conington has always been 2 track. South of there was 4 track up to electrification, which reduced it to 3 tracks.
 

21C101

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Meanwhile on SABRE, the M40 thread has been sidetracked into a discussion on rail improvements in Yorkshire :D
How long before this thread degenerates into speculation as to whether the western arm of the M42 and north end of M40 was actually supposed to be M41 (thats why the junction flows from M42 to M40 innit) before heading south to Tring, followed by speculation as to how the A41(M) Tring bypass was supposed to be linked to the M41 West Cross Route (deceased)?

Which I think is the Sabre equivalent of Woodhead.....
 

Grumpy Git

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Just need me to chip-in on the off topic M40 stuff, I must have a stalker who reports me on speed dial?
 

YorksLad12

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I suspect they will not call at Sheffield and go via an upgraded Old Road to a South Yorkshire Parkway Station, formerly known as Rotherham Masborough.

With other trains coming off HS2 at Trent and calling at Derby, Chestefield, then terminating at Sheffield.
Not that there's anywhere at Masboro to build a proper Parkway / P&R station. You could build it at Parkgate (where Parkgate and Rawmarsh Station was), next door to to the shopping park.

Either way: I suppose we have a lot of reading to do tomorrow, followed by a lot of reading here. I don't have an armchair, but I'll do my best.
 

Peterthegreat

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Not that there's anywhere at Masboro to build a proper Parkway / P&R station. You could build it at Parkgate (where Parkgate and Rawmarsh Station was), next door to to the shopping park.

Either way: I suppose we have a lot of reading to do tomorrow, followed by a lot of reading here. I don't have an armchair, but I'll do my best.
As you say Masborough would be difficult. It also closed for a reason - out of town, not a particular affluent area and without ample parking. Since it closed Meadowhall has opened and become a de facto Rotherham South. I am not sure what Parkgate would offer, traffic around the shopping park can be horrendous at times and would offer little local traffic. Given that Swinton is only a couple of miles further north and already has a decent station with sizeable car park (capable of expansion) why not use this instead?
 

Codville

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EXCLUSIVE: Boris Johnson confirms HS2 Eastern Leg to Leeds will be axed

Writing exclusively for The Yorkshire Post today, Mr Johnson confirmed the current plan for the HS2 link to Leeds is being dropped with a “new study” ordered on the best way to eventually get the city connected to the network.

In February this year, Mr Johnson had told Parliament: “I can certainly confirm that we are going to develop the eastern leg as well as the whole of the HS2.”

Mr Johnson said: “HS2 will come to Sheffield, meaning a trip to or from London will take just one hour 27 minutes – precisely the same as under the old HS2 plans.

“We’ll look at how to get HS2 to Leeds too, with a new study on the best way to make it happen.”

Mr Johnson said the Midland Main Line will be “electrified and expanded”, as will the Trans-Pennine Main Line. The overall IRP is to detail what the Government is describing as a new £96bn programme of investment, but The Yorkshire Post understands it is based on transferring money earmarked for previous plans to the amended proposals, rather than totally new funding.

The Prime Minister said “long stretches of brand new high-speed track” will be part of the Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) project to reduce journey times between Leeds and Manchester.

However, he made no mention of including Bradford directly on an entirely new NPR route between Leeds and Manchester, as northern leaders have been calling for. But he said route upgrades between Leeds and Bradford will take place “by the early 2030s” to halve journey times, while committing to NPR reaching York.

He also committed to the creation of a metro system for Leeds and the surrounding area which will be known as West Yorkshire Mass Transit. Mr Johnson defended the decision to scrap previous plans. “Under the original blueprint, first drawn up more than a decade ago, Yorkshire would have not have seen the benefits of our investment until at least the 2040s,” he said.

He added: “If we are to see levelling up in action now, we must rapidly transform the services that matter to people most.

“That’s why the Integrated Rail Plan will be the biggest transport investment programme in a century, delivering meaningful transport connections for more passengers across the country, more quickly – with both high-speed journeys and better local services, it will ensure no town or city is left behind.”.

Shadow Transport Secretary Jim McMahon said Labour would build HS2 and NPR in full, adding: “The Conservatives must deliver on the promises they have made time and time again, not cut back and hope people won’t notice.”
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld

Regarding the metro system for Leeds (assuming heavy rail), I designed a Taktplan for the Harrogate loop and gave it the Merseyrail treatment as it is the easiest one to do. Re-quad Leeds - Armley Jct, reopen Harrogate - Ripon (30 min frequency), reopen Arthington Jct - Otley (15 minute frequency), redouble Knaresborough - Poppleton, and reopen Goldsborough station (as a residential development is planned nearby) so as to enable Leeds - York via Harrogate on a 30 minute frequency were some of the infrastructure interventions required.

Also, there would be no token London trains, no mad alternative routings of the Sussex Scot, no regional express. In other words, a segregated service group similar to Merseyrail.
 
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“We’ll look at how to get HS2 to Leeds too, with a new study on the best way to make it happen.”

Sounds like the rumoured Leeds to Clayton section hasn't made the cut either. Euston to Leeds via Manchester?
 

Shrop

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Before going to sleep tonight I just scanned through this thread again, and it's very sad to see such failings in Government's transport planning. I see several references to roads, and back in my first job in Worcester I remember the County Surveyor being presented with a gold framed copy of his letter to the DfT prior to the original M5 construction, in which he pleaded with them to build the M5 as 3 lanes (each way) through his county. Government "experts" refused and then spent a fortune years later having to reconstruct all the bridges to convert from 2 to 3 lanes, as well as massive disruption for years.
They never learn. Railways have been reduced to single track only to need re-dualling, and capacity on many remaining singled lines continues to be a massive problem. You might think they'd have learned from selling APT, only to have to pay another fortune to buy it back as Pendolino but no, here we are once again with yet more ignoring of experience as the Eastern Arm is axed.
In due course we will need it, but when circumstances make it inevitable it will cost far more, along with huge inconvenience as much infrastructure will have been built in its way.
And sadly, some people will still continue to defend our bumbling politicians.
 

JKF

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“Looking into it” is worth nothing They’ve already done that and come up with a solution, so it’s an excuse to ‘dither and delay’ it out of existence, talking about ‘tough choices’ as usual.
 

HSTEd

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“We’ll look at how to get HS2 to Leeds too, with a new study on the best way to make it happen.”

Sounds like the rumoured Leeds to Clayton section hasn't made the cut either. Euston to Leeds via Manchester?
I doubt it, at least formally.

If it was the plan he'd claim Leeds would get HS2, just via Manchester instead
 

Ianno87

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“We’ll look at how to get HS2 to Leeds too, with a new study on the best way to make it happen.”

Sounds like the rumoured Leeds to Clayton section hasn't made the cut either.

It would seem odd to announce Leeds-Clayton and then a study as to how to connect the rest of HS2 into it...which might lead it to being in the wrong place! Fingers crossed, we find out the detail later...
 

Bigman

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If they really want to speed up Leeds to London, stop making every train (bar the 1A07 at 07:00) stop at at least 4 intermediate stops en route. Just have 1 train an hour that stops at Wakefield, Doncaster, Peterborough and Stevenage and make the other non-stop. Leeds - Wakefield is adequately covered by Northern and Cross Country so does not need 2 x LNER an hour IMHO, and 2 an hour from Wakefield to Doncaster should suffice.
 

mwmbwls

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Alex Wickham writing in POLITICO’s London Playbook has the detail of the IRP


OFF THE RAILS: Boris Johnson admitted to Conservative MPs last night that he had “crashed the car into a ditch” by allowing the Owen Paterson lobbying scandal to explode into a full-blown sleaze saga. The revelations about Tory MPs’ outside interests that culminated in Wednesday night’s vote to toughen the rules may have lasting political consequences for Downing Street, both in terms of the mutinous backbench mood and the questions raised over how serious Johnson is about passing genuine standards reforms any time soon. Today, however, the news turns from beltway politics to a policy announcement that will affect millions of people across the country, as the government unveils its controversial Integrated Rail Plan to bring high speed train travel to the Midlands and the North. There have been days of speculation that the prime minister is set to break commitments on the eastern leg of High Speed 2 and the Northern Powerhouse Rail project. Playbook has the scoop on what’s coming today.



What the PM will say: Johnson has written a foreword to the document where he will directly address his decision to scrap the original plans for the HS2 eastern leg and Northern Powerhouse rail (which would have seen a high speed line from Birmingham to Leeds and another between Leeds and Manchester). The PM will argue the new plan means quicker benefits and better services for people across the North and Midlands: “Some have demanded that we rigidly stick to the old plans, however long they take and however much they cost and whoever they leave behind. Some have pre-emptively denounced any departure from those plans as a betrayal of levelling up. But those who say these things are, in effect, condemning the North and the East Midlands to get nothing for 20 years. Levelling up cannot wait that long. And it has to deliver benefits for everyone.” Expect to hear lots of this sort of thing from the PM and government ministers today as they defend themselves from intense criticism from northern leaders and newspapers.



Timings: Transport Secretary Grant Shapps will announce the long-awaited package to the Commons at around 10.30 a.m., with the (very long) Integrated Rail Plan published online simultaneously. The PM is on a series of rail-related visits today where he will speak to the media.



What we’re getting: Playbook has the final details of the three new high speed rail lines to be announced today. The first connects Crewe and Manchester, as expected. The second runs from Birmingham to the East Midlands Hub near Nottingham — it will no longer go all the way to Leeds as the “full fat HS2” plan proposed. The third is the so-called Northern Powerhouse Rail line between Leeds and Manchester, half of which will be a new high speed line, and the other half of which will consist of upgrades. The original proposal consisted of a new line the whole way, running through Bradford, which Playbook can confirm now doesn’t get a stop.



The upgrades: The announcement will contain three proposals to improve existing lines. There will be full electrification of the Midland Main Line from London St Pancras to Sheffield. There will be full electrification of the Transpennine main line. And there will be upgrades to the East Coast Main Line — things like removing level crossings that ministers say will reduce journey times to the north east.



Promise broken on Northern Powerhouse Rail? The 2019 Tory manifesto committed to “building Northern Powerhouse Rail between Leeds and Manchester,” while Johnson said in July that year: “I am going to deliver on my commitment to that vision with a pledge to fund the Leeds to Manchester route.” Whitehall insiders last night said Johnson was “bullish” about the new plan and would insist he has not broken any promises on NPR. Former Cabinet Minister Robert Jenrick told ITV’s Robert Peston last night: “If NPR doesn’t go ahead there will be legitimate disappointment.”



Why the PM will say the new plan is worth it: A Whitehall insider tells Playbook that today’s plan will start delivering benefits much quicker than under the old plan, with huge savings and “the same, similar or faster journey times to the original plans.” The initial Northern Powerhouse Rail program would have seen a trip from Manchester to Leeds take 29 and a half minutes. Today, with the half and half option, ministers will commit to the journey taking 33 minutes. They will argue that they are saving £18 billion for the sake of an extra three and half minutes, which can then be spent on integrating with and improving the rest of the local public transport network.



Will that win critics over? Jake Berry, the chair of the Northern Research Group of Tory MPs, warned Johnson yesterday that he had committed to a fully new line between Manchester and Leeds. His colleague Philip Davies said “anything less” than a wholly new line would be a “massive disappointment.” The FT’s Jim Pickard has their quotes. A rail source argues to the Times‘ Ben Clatworthy that the real problem is capacity rather than speed: “The government keeps banging on about journey times and speed but this is simply not the answer. When you cancel new lines in favour of upgrades, you don’t increase the capacity.”



2 losers: Playbook’s first reading is that the government’s critics will focus on Leeds and Bradford. A government source said Leeds was the only place that would get significantly slower journey times to London compared with the full-fat HS2 proposal. Playbook is told the Leeds to London trip will now be 30 minutes slower than it would have been under the old plan, though 20 minutes faster than now. The Times quotes a source saying Leeds has been “betrayed.”



What they’re getting instead: In order to soften the blow, ministers say they will focus on improving local transport links for Leeds and Bradford. Leeds will get a new mass transit system and faster trains to York and Newcastle, as well as NPR to Manchester. In an op-ed for the Yorkshire Post today, Johnson commits to a “new study” on how to eventually get high speed rail all the way up the eastern leg to Leeds — though expect local leaders to pour scorn on that peace offering. Bradford will have an upgraded electrified line to Leeds that will take that journey time down to 12 minutes.



Why did they change their minds? Money is obviously a major factor and there have been briefings flying around all week that Chancellor Rishi Sunak wanted to reduce costs. The Northern Powerhouse Partnership calculates that the overall saving from downgrading the pledges on HS2 and NPR is £14 billion — £10 billion on HS2 and £4 billion on NPR — ITV’s Anushka Asthana and the Times report. A rail source complains to the paper: “There’s all this backlash, all these false promises and all the government is saving is £4 billion [on NPR]. It’s laughable.”



The argument you’ll hear today: Ministers will make the case that changing the plan on NPR and the HS2 eastern leg will allow people across the North to see benefits this decade, with faster journey times coming 10 years sooner than before (although the full benefits will still take two decades). On the eastern leg, ministers will argue that improving local links will “do much more to change people’s lives” than cutting half an hour off the journey to London. Expect them to say that improvements to local services will mean moving from the current antiquated system of diesel railbus trains in Yorkshire with no ticket offices at stations that have not much more than a bus shelter, to electrified trains on a light rail system with contactless payments integrated with local buses and trams.



A Whitehall insider said: “It’s a £100 billion program, the biggest government rail investment in British history — your head starts spinning slightly when you hear that described as ‘derisory.'”



Fascinating spot … from Opinium’s Chris Curtis, who reckons the canceled section of the HS2 eastern leg would have run through a load of red wall seats held by Tory MPs, without benefitting them directly. The original plan would have seen new track through Rother Valley, Ashfield, Bolsover, North East Derbyshire, and Penistone and Stocksbridge, all 2019 Tory gains, without serving any of those areas. The Yorkshire Post’s Caitlin Doherty also noticed this a couple of days ago and tweeted: “A proportion of Red Wall voters will be pretty chuffed to hear about the Eastern Leg of HS2 not going ahead.”



The backlash: The Federation of Small Businesses’ Mike Cherry says in the FT this morning that it remains to be seen whether the new improvements to local services make up for the change to the high speed plans: “Confirmation that a significant section of HS2 is not going ahead will come as a big disappointment to small firms right across the country which were banking on its delivery. Targeted, local investment is a great thing — the detail unveiled tomorrow will reveal whether we have enough here to make up for the HS2 shortfall. There will be those who worry that the levelling-up agenda is already going off track.”



Labour’s shadow transport secretary is already on the attack … Jim McMahon blasts: “The Integrated Rail Plan must deliver in full what has been promised. For too long communities across the North have been left with substandard infrastructure, whilst facing record fare increases … It’s laughable and insulting to expect people to be satisfied with watered down schemes and crumbs from the table, after putting their faith in a prime minister who has gone back on his word at the first opportunity.”
 

Ianno87

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Interesting point about benefits. If the full plans are what The North (TM) wants, then, frankly some of it will be decades away from implementation. The North needs rail capacity solutions much sooner than that, gradually building into the long term picture. Hopefully the IRP will set this out.
 

class26

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Especially if it involves rail/rail level crossings at Newark!
I suspect it is more about the stretch north of York as that will speed up the NPH to Newcastle, probably necessary to get timings down close to previously advertised but we will know in a couple of hours now !
 

Wolfie

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If HS2E has been axed, then instead of mucking about with 2 half-baked schemes between Leeds and Sheffield and East Midlands and Birmingham, they may as well plough the brass into a full upgrade of the ECML. Build a new viaduct and tunnels to quadrify Digswell to Woolmer Green, four track Connington to Peterborough, and open out Stoke tunnel to make a 4 track cutting and you could have 4 track all the way from Kings Cross to Grantham. Replace various level crossing with tunnels/overbridges, new signalling and get the line speed up to 140 and that would probably be enough. Right, tin hat on.
Because of course attempts to seriously upgrade the WCML a decade or two ago went so well....

Good luck on ploughing through some major towns too.


Probably more expensive and certainly more disruptive than building HS2E and just as controversial.
Agreed.


That's good for Leeds and the East Coast but does nothing for the East Midlands.

I live in between Nottingham and Derby and our train services ate already poor compared to the East Coast main line
I hope that the MML electrification is completed.


Eurostar ran on existing lines for many years before its upgrade.
Only in the UK and it was relatively slow as a result.
 
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