Mark Harper will be on Laura Kuenssberg's programme today (27/11/2022 BBC1 09:00)

[GalaxyDog]

Exactly , and they arent going to put everyone everywhere on the same T's & C's because the union will only even begin to entertain it if you take the highest hourly rate .

And of course complements, links and therefore timetables are built around how much rostering flexibility there is .

And this is just for one grade . Many operators have grades where the same grade at the same company has different terms and conditions dependent on location . Its just not feasible .

Cross Country and their Train Managers vs Senior Conductors, or South West with Commercial Guards and Metro Guards, or Wales and their Cardiff depot with Valleys lines and Main Lines being different all spring to mind.

 

[43066]

Not everyone is feeling the pinch. Some people are managing just fine. I don't know why this one keeps getting wheeled out.

Is it really that difficult for you to understand that during a cost of living crisis many people are struggling? Perhaps you should open your eyes.

Picket line? It sounds like something from the 1980s. Why do they need a picket line in this day and age?

And that sounds like something straight out of the Daily Mail.

We know you’re alright, Jack. But a lot of people would benefit from unionisation in the gig economy now more than ever. Zero hours contracts, workers being falsely characterised as self employed etc. all sound like something from Victorian times.

It’s obvious from the general tenor of your posts that you don’t know much about trade unions, their importance to the evolution of employment rights since the 19th century that you yourself most likely currently benefit from? Perhaps you should read up on the subject.

A policy reversed by Hunt and replaced by tax increases for the 45% tax payers.

Indeed they did. But the policy was still proposed in the first place.

Except there is a limit to government borrowing, whether for expenditure or tax cuts, as Truss and Kwarteng found out when the markets rejected their policies, leading to chaos in the markets and interest rates shooting up.

What was the limit when it came to Covid interventions, and how much did the conservative government actually borrow?

Correct me if something like this already exists, but my view regarding redundancy is that if a worker is made redundant, whether because of cutbacks and/or due to technological advances, they should be entitled to free education/training for a set period (1-2 years if sufficient) that can allow them to move onto another job, and maybe even a bursary to support income while in training. This will hopefully reduce strike sentiment regarding "reforms"/modernisation, and from a wider perspective could help the economy through lower unemployment, where at the moment a worker shortage will in part be down to a proportion of the unemployed not having the skills needed for sectors with vacancies, which in turn can help fund the costs of the aforementioned retraining and short term income support.

No doubt costs will be cited as a reason not to do this. Albeit it’s thankfully highly likely that all railway redundancies can be voluntary, indeed the existing voluntary redundancy scheme was oversubscribed.

Some of this isn’t about money, it’s about doing the right thing for passengers, in this case being sure of providing a service every day of the week.

Ah, so there’s no money for pay rises, but there apparently is money for bringing Sundays inside. Rather proves the point that lack of money isn’t the issue here.

The unions should be given an ultimatum, if they want a payrise, they need to agree to savings such as DOO

Good luck with that. DOO doesn’t improve things for passengers, and your tickets certainly won’t be any cheaper, so it’s an odd thing for “rail enthusiasts” to be in favour of.

We all know that DOO is the only real way to make savings

Not sure that really follows? In many parts of the country DOO would take a massive investment in rolling stock upgrades, quite apart from the fact the unions will oppose it. Again, when it comes to making savings, why are rolling stock leasing costs being roundly ignored? Again that suggests this is more about attacking a unionised workforce than it is about saving costs.

 

[greyman42]

Is it really that difficult for you to understand that during a cost of living crisis many people are struggling? Perhaps you should open your eyes.

Some people are suffering with the cost of living but not everyone, which is the line that keeps getting wheeled out. Regarding opening my eyes to it, what i saw regarding spending in York at the weekend suggests some people are managing just fine.

It’s obvious from the general tenor of your posts that you don’t know much about trade unions, their importance to the evolution of employment rights since the 19th century that you yourself most likely currently benefit from? Perhaps you should read up on the subject.

I have been a member of a trade union for the last 43 years so have a rough idea as to what they are about.

And that sounds like something straight out of the Daily Mail.

That does not answer the question which was why do we need a picket line in this day and age?

 

[43066]

Some people are suffering with the cost of living but not everyone, which is the line that keeps getting wheeled out. Regarding opening my eyes to it, what i saw regarding spending in York at the weekend suggests some people are managing just fine.

Everyone has suffered an increase in their bills, everyone is suffering inflation at 10%, many have suffered a huge hike in rent or mortgage costs - quite possibly to the tune of several hundred pounds per month. Not everyone is struggling, quite obviously, but many more will be today than were a couple of years ago. What’s so difficult to understand about that?

I have been a member of a trade union for the last 43 years so have a rough idea as to what they are about.

That doesn’t really come across from your posts. Why are you a member, out of interest? You don’t seem to have favourable view of unions, and certainly not of unions who dare to take industrial action.

That does not answer the question which was why do we need a picket line in this day and age?

An odd question for someone who has been a member of a TU for 43 years (and who is “we”?). The answer is that it’s largely symbolic these days, a show of solidarity. As you were asked upthread, why does it bother you?

 

[greyman42]

An odd question for someone who has been a member of a TU for 43 years (and who is “we”?). The answer is that it’s largely symbolic these days, a show of solidarity. As you were asked upthread, why does it bother you?

I would if thought the majority voting to take industrial action demonstrates some solidarity so no need for the picket line, unless it is to try and intimidate staff who choose to work.

Everyone has suffered an increase in their bills, everyone is suffering inflation at 10%, many have suffered a huge hike in rent or mortgage costs - quite possibly to the tune of several hundred pounds per month. Not everyone is struggling, quite obviously, but many more will be today than were a couple of years ago. What’s so difficult to understand about that?

What makes you think i don't understand it?

Why are you a member, out of interest?

I believed it was in my best interest to be in the trade union.

 

[43066]

I would if thought the majority voting to take industrial action demonstrates some solidarity so no need for the picket line, unless it is to try and intimidate staff who choose to work.

Well with all due respect, what you think is neither here nor there. Nobody is forced to stand on a picket line. As for the second reason, certainly not (in any case nobody at my depot chose to strike break so there was nobody to intimidate). Intimidation by picketers would also be illegal, so can I ask why you are casting aspersions and alleging criminal activity?

What makes you think i don't understand it?

The fact you seem to think that people shopping in York is in any way relevant to the fact that many people are indeed struggling. Nobody has ever said everyone is struggling - why are you being obtuse?

I believed it was in my best interest to be in the trade union.

But are seemingly against others standing up for their best interests.

 

[greyman42]

The fact you seem to think that people shopping in York is in any way relevant to the fact that many people are indeed struggling. Nobody has ever said everyone is struggling - why are you being obtuse?

That is what it said in the post i was originally referring to. (Post 27)

The fact you seem to think that people shopping in York is in any way relevant to the fact that many people are indeed struggling. Nobody has ever said everyone is struggling - why are you being obtuse?

And the amount of money people were spending in pubs.

 

[Towers]

We're in danger of yet another thread locking here, chaps...

Perhaps the differences of opinion could be accepted in a gentlemanly manner and the discussion allowed to remain on point? It's nice to have a strike-related thread left open for speculation & updates!

 

[greyman42]

We're in danger of yet another thread locking here, chaps...

Perhaps the differences of opinion could be accepted in a gentlemanly manner and the discussion allowed to remain on point? It's nice to have a strike-related thread left open for speculation & updates!

Agreed.

 

[43066]

We're in danger of yet another thread locking here, chaps...

Perhaps the differences of opinion could be accepted in a gentlemanly manner and the discussion allowed to remain on point? It's nice to have a strike-related thread left open for speculation & updates!

Also agreed - unfounded suggestions of criminality by colleagues I know personally really aren’t appropriate, though.

I’ll leave that thread of discussion there!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not sure that really follows? In many parts of the country DOO would take a massive investment in rolling stock upgrades, quite apart from the fact the unions will oppose it.

Of course it wouldn't happen overnight but would be an option every time a fleet came up for renewal and should have happened in SWR (701) and MerseyRail (777) but hasn't and that doesn't sit well with DfT.

Again, when it comes to making savings, why are rolling stock leasing costs being roundly ignored? Again that suggests this is more about attacking a unionised workforce than it is about saving costs.

Depends where your coming from here but with the Southern 455 fleet scrapped the Castles next up AWC 221's and 465/6's stood down we can see that leasing costs are being attacked where they can. If you mean the cost of leasing vs public ownership for sure it would have been more cost effective but you can't unpick that now easily but its not been helped by the lousy deals DfT negotiated with Agility Trains (GWR/LNER IETs) and Cross London Trains (700's) the latter costing a cool 183m pa for the 115 trains.

 

[cactustwirly]

Is it really that difficult for you to understand that during a cost of living crisis many people are struggling? Perhaps you should open your eyes.



And that sounds like something straight out of the Daily Mail.

We know you’re alright, Jack. But a lot of people would benefit from unionisation in the gig economy now more than ever. Zero hours contracts, workers being falsely characterised as self employed etc. all sound like something from Victorian times.

It’s obvious from the general tenor of your posts that you don’t know much about trade unions, their importance to the evolution of employment rights since the 19th century that you yourself most likely currently benefit from? Perhaps you should read up on the subject.



Indeed they did. But the policy was still proposed in the first place.



What was the limit when it came to Covid interventions, and how much did the conservative government actually borrow?



No doubt costs will be cited as a reason not to do this. Albeit it’s thankfully highly likely that all railway redundancies can be voluntary, indeed the existing voluntary redundancy scheme was oversubscribed.



Ah, so there’s no money for pay rises, but there apparently is money for bringing Sundays inside. Rather proves the point that lack of money isn’t the issue here.



Good luck with that. DOO doesn’t improve things for passengers, and your tickets certainly won’t be any cheaper, so it’s an odd thing for “rail enthusiasts” to be in favour of.



Not sure that really follows? In many parts of the country DOO would take a massive investment in rolling stock upgrades, quite apart from the fact the unions will oppose it. Again, when it comes to making savings, why are rolling stock leasing costs being roundly ignored? Again that suggests this is more about attacking a unionised workforce than it is about saving costs.

In other areas, DOO could easily be rolled out easily, the stock on SWR and WMT already has DOO capability.
As well as the 333s and 331s at Northern

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, when the leases come up, they are being looked at to see if the stock is still needed.

A word of warning about it being cheaper if the stock is on the Governments books. Not necessarily so. Sometimes Treasury financing rates (you didn’t get stock for free in BR days) exceeded what you could have got in the markets - that was a frequent complaint from the nationalised industries.

The biggest variable you could have in your BR rolling stock books was overhaul or heavy repair costs. The non-capital element of the lease has now smoothed that out and in TOC land you can be insulated from those large variations in those costs if you are not doing it all yourself. In BR days, you could find that some component prices went up by huge amounts in year - I had standard DMU engines going up 50% in one year and, before the Turbos came, we used 160 of them every year!

The capital element is always contentious because on BR we used straight line depreciation (25 years for all DMU types, including Pacers) whereas the ROSCOS used MEAV, thereby leading to a constant capital element in the lease charge, irrespective of asset age. The advantage with this approach is that a) the funding of replacement stock is easier and b) the customer is indifferent to whether similar duty stock is old or new. You don’t therefore have to play the old Treasury game of justifying capital investment every time you need new stock. It’s a different financial model and one that has been examined more than once to see if they are profiteering but they aren’t.

This really hacks the DfT off because they can’t really control a key element of industry costs themselves but they are unwilling to buy the rolling stock off the ROSCOs and have it on their books. It would cost them a fortune.

 

[dingdinger]

In other areas, DOO could easily be rolled out easily, the stock on SWR and WMT already has DOO capability.
As well as the 333s and 331s at Northern

If you're talking about the desiros then how would the driver safely close the doors?

 

[cactustwirly]

If you're talking about the desiros then how would the driver safely close the doors?

The 360s were DOO, so it can't be that difficult to retrofit cameras.
Isn't that what GWR are doing to the 165s anyway?

 

[dingdinger]

I think money could be saved by looking at crew diagrams. Reduce passing, also some diagrams have lots of padded time and long pnbs. Also cut unnecessary taxis - some of the weekend stuff which the computer clearly churns out is full of unnecessary taxis.

The 360s were DOO, so it can't be that difficult to retrofit cameras.
Isn't that what GWR are doing to the 165s anyway?

360s were non gangway stock - more space. Where would the cameras go on a 350/450/444?

 

[Evolution]

In other areas, DOO could easily be rolled out easily, the stock on SWR and WMT already has DOO capability.
As well as the 333s and 331s at Northern

I beg to differ- there are many aspects to rolling out DOO (not just the rolling stock) and in the examples above, extensive work would be required to the vast majority of these stations to implement it. To say it could easily be rolled out is just hyperbole, I’m afraid. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[dingdinger]

I beg to differ- there are many aspects to rolling out DOO (not just the rolling stock) and in the examples above, extensive work would be required to the vast majority of these stations to implement it. To say it could easily be rolled out is just hyperbole, I’m afraid. Sorry to disappoint.

And extensive work will come at a cost which defeats the idea in the first place!

 

[Evolution]

And extensive work will come at a cost which defeats the idea in the first place!

Exactly. But that won’t stop some of the enthusiasts on here peddling it out from their fantasy “wish lists” .

 

[cactustwirly]

I beg to differ- there are many aspects to rolling out DOO (not just the rolling stock) and in the examples above, extensive work would be required to the vast majority of these stations to implement it. To say it could easily be rolled out is just hyperbole, I’m afraid. Sorry to disappoint.

What sort of work?

 

[Andrew1395]

BT have offered a pay offer worth 16% for those earning less than £50,000 per annum. I bet the SofS for Transport won’t welcome that.

 

[zwk500]

BT have offered a pay offer worth 16% for those earning less than £50,000 per annum. I bet the SofS for Transport won’t welcome that.

BT are an entirely private company though,and made £1.2bn profit last year: https://newsroom.bt.com/results-for-the-full-year-to-31-march-2022/. The S/S probably feels completely unconcerned by the BT deal, as the negotiations aren't comparable. It'll be the TfW, Scotrail and Royal Mail deals that S/S will be looking at.

 

[43066]

What sort of work?

Maybe just drop it?

How do you think DOO will benefit you, exactly?

 

[skyhigh]

the stock on SWR and WMT already has DOO capability.
As well as the 333s and 331s at Northern

333s have DOO capability how, exactly?

 

[Bald Rick]

BT have offered a pay offer worth 16% for those earning less than £50,000 per annum. I bet the SofS for Transport won’t welcome that.

That’s not right.

Its a £1500 flat rise for everyone. For someone earning 40k, that’s 3.75%.

However they did have a previous flat rise, also of £1500, in April.

 

[Starmill]

BT are an entirely private company though,and made £1.2bn profit last year: https://newsroom.bt.com/results-for-the-full-year-to-31-march-2022/. The S/S probably feels completely unconcerned by the BT deal, as the negotiations aren't comparable. It'll be the TfW, Scotrail and Royal Mail deals that S/S will be looking at.

To be fair to Royal Mail, while they continue to be subject to their universal service obligation, they receive very little in terms of public funding by comparison with Network Rail and franchised passenger companies.

 

[Class 170101]

The 360s were DOO, so it can't be that difficult to retrofit cameras.

No cameras on Class 360s it was all Platform equipment based on the GE.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

In other areas, DOO could easily be rolled out easily, the stock on SWR and WMT already has DOO capability.
As well as the 333s and 331s at Northern

WMT has zero DOO capable stock. It has some units with retrofitted screens that are blanked out. Would love to see you attempt to operate a 350, 170, 172 or 323. Especially at UDD or SDO stations

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm intrigued on how DOO would work on lines that have Request stops. Fine if you are on the platform by sticking your hand out, but when on the train?

 

[Snow1964]

DfT has published letter from Mark Harper to Mick Lynch

Will the RMT publish a reply (doesn’t seem to be one yet) ?

28 November 2022
Dear Mr Lynch,
Thank you for meeting me last week; it was constructive and positive.
We both agree the industrial dispute on the railways has gone on too long. It’s bad for your members, losing out on pay and overtime, bad for businesses who depend on trains to bring them goods and customers and bad for people across our country who depend on the railways. Worse, disruption pushes more and more people away from using the railways, some of whom will never come back. We both want a long-term sustainable railway that provides both great service and rewarding jobs. Every day’s industrial action makes that harder to deliver.
There is a way forwards to meet everyone’s needs. By modernising working practices, we can deliver the savings that lower post-Covid passenger numbers require, restore financial sustainability and not place an unfair burden on taxpayers. My role is to facilitate and support – not negotiate. Negotiations will continue between trade unions and employers, but I can see scope for agreement.
Let me set out how I think we can help support that. Better information sharing between the Rail Minister, trade unions and those leading the negotiations on behalf of the employers can speed up this process. We will soon convene a further meeting to help advance, with the good faith of all parties, settlement discussions and progress in this dispute.
I want to work with you and employers in good faith to help resolve these long-standing issues, and help the employers and you reach a resolution that is fair to all. I would hope this will lead to progress that will allow you to call off industrial action.
Yours sincerely,

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1120557/letter-from-secretary-of-state-for-transport-to-general-secretary-of-the-rmt.pdf