Potential Bidders for the next Greater Western franchise

[TEW]

You'll find a lot of Reading commuters on these 'pick up only' services. It's a token gesture by FGW and one that, in my opinion, is not enforced enough. Canny commuters know the Plymouth/Penzance services stop at Reading and pile on regardless of announcements or what the timetable says.

Regular RPI stings should be carried out. That'll learn 'em!

Indeed. Enforcement is a problem because of the lack of ticket checks between London and Reading. First Class usually isn't a problem but it's rare to get a check in Standard. I know when RPIs do get on though they are pretty hot. The 1903 off London on Fridays is one of the worst services, full of Newbury commuters, hard to fit more people on at Paddington, which also means its hard for ticket checks to be carried out.

 

[Flamingo]

Also, the number of off-peak's to Reading on peak trains (again a restriction designed to discourage reading passengers from using the evening peak services) is large, but one can never get through enough before Reading to discourage them. Again and again I catch the same faces.

 

[Zoe]

Also, the number of off-peak's to Reading on peak trains (again a restriction designed to discourage reading passengers from using the evening peak services) is large, but one can never get through enough before Reading to discourage them. Again and again I catch the same faces.

Do the barriers at Reading not prevent this?

 

[Flamingo]

Do the barriers at Reading not prevent this?

No, they have no way of knowing what service the passengers have arrived on, also the barriers in Pad (assuming they are on a barriered platform) have no way of knowing what train is on that platform. If you don't catch them on-train there is no chance.

 

[junglejames]

Chiltern Mainline?

London Overground?

(This is a fair comparison as DB Regio UK was the same entity as Laing Rail, just with a different name.)

Lets be fair, the running of Chiltern has very little to do with DB/ Arriva. It is all Chilterns doing still.
As for LO, havent most of the positive points been pushed and funded by TFL?
If I was trying to think of fair positive points for DB/ Arriva, I wouldnt mention Chiltern or LO myself.

I cant think of an Arriva franchise (leaving out Chiltern/ LO) that is all good, but there are some good points within all.

 

[Eagle]

Lets be fair, the running of Chiltern has very little to do with DB/ Arriva. It is all Chilterns doing still.

I see your point, but remember that Laing and DBRUK were the same company, just renamed.

 

[junglejames]

I see your point, but remember that Laing and DBRUK were the same company, just renamed.

Yes, which backs up my point. Management basically has stayed the same. Chiltern management. Admittedly DB have purchased the Mk3s though. Will give them that.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Do the barriers at Reading not prevent this?

Not really, you can avoid the barriers at Reading with ease!

 

[Masboroughlad]

I have seen www.renfe.com, but do RENFE have any information anywhere about their plans for overseas (incl FGW)? There is nothing on that site.

In fact, do any of the European operators have information on the web about buying overseas?

 

[Eagle]

I have seen www.renfe.com, but do RENFE have any information anywhere about their plans for overseas (incl FGW)? There is nothing on that site.

In fact, do any of the European operators have information on the web about buying overseas?

Wouldn't think any group, British or continental, would publish details about that unless they'd actually won a franchise.

 

[LouJ]

After a recent visit to Spain and experiencing RENFE first-hand I must say I would be happy for them win the franchise. Immaculate rolling stock, first class service, high levels of investment and brilliant timekeeping are the basis for this opinion. Whether all these attributes would be transferred to the Uk is the only doubt.

 

[jopsuk]

Remeber that SNCF have Keolis as their "other" services unit, NS have "Abellio" and to some extent Arriva now performs the same function for DB. Presumably any RENFE bid will actually be channelled through such a subsidiary?

 

[bailey65]

It will be interesting to see what a new operator would do with the loss making sleeper service and the cornish branches most tocs that operate out of london concentrate on the lucrative london end of the network as commuters with top dollar season tickets bring in most of the revenue the further from london into the sticks the less investment.

 

[WestCoast]

After a recent visit to Spain and experiencing RENFE first-hand I must say I would be happy for them win the franchise. Immaculate rolling stock, first class service, high levels of investment and brilliant timekeeping are the basis for this opinion. Whether all these attributes would be transferred to the Uk is the only doubt.

I've travelled with all of the mainland European operators and their performance in the UK bears little relation to their standards in their home countries. The rolling stock, service levels and investment levels are controlled by the DfT in the realm of the franchise system. Timekeeping is also affected by many external factors.

RENFE's network and operation is impressive, but it is not as dense or intense as the UK, and it's common to see frequencies fall below 4 or 5 trains a day away from the flagship high speed lines and the largest urban areas. I think RENFE would be an option for ICWC, but GW seems a step too far.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It will be interesting to see what a new operator would do with the loss making sleeper service and the cornish branches most tocs that operate out of london concentrate on the lucrative london end of the network as commuters with top dollar season tickets bring in most of the revenue the further from london into the sticks the less investment.

Well if first retain it i can see them paying attention as the cornish and devon branches have flourished under FGW. (whether it was them or not i do not know)
The line partnerships down there do a great job too. I dont think many TOCs would neglect it to be honest.

 

[34D]

I think that the profit margin on profitable franchises is around 3% (from discussions on here etc).

Some franchises obviously didn't make their owners any money (or "enough" money)

That 3% would be net profit presumably?

 

[Tiny Tim]

If Arriva or Renfe are the successful bidders for the FGW franchise what percentage of rail operations in this country will then be in the hands of the state railways of other countries? Am I the only one to think that it's strange that the profits made by British TOCs mostly go to foreign railways? Is our government indirectly funding the national rail networks of France, Belgium and Germany?

As our own government will not be re-nationalising the railways, perhaps one of our continental neighbours would like to do the job instead. After all, making the trains run on time is allegedly a speciality of the Germans, Italians and Spanish.

When the British rail industry has been completely taken over by Deutsche Bahn or whatever, we'll probably look back nostalgically to the days of privatised railways, remembering how every few years the same tired rolling stock was rebranded and repainted, fooling us into thinking the service had improved.

 

[Zoe]

Not really, you can avoid the barriers at Reading with ease!

I believe the elevator call button at Reading sets off an alarm where people can see with CCTV if you really need to use the elevator and then call it for you. If there is a possiblity of fare evasion then while you are waiting they could send staff over to ask for your ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

I believe the elevator call button at Reading sets off an alarm where people can see with CCTV if you really need to use the elevator and the call it for you. If there is a possiblity of fare evasion then while you are waiting they could send staff over to ask for your ticket.

They can and do, but not all the time (especially during the redevelopment as there is also the temporary staircase to man). The northern barriers are also left open reasonably frequently.

Then there's the old favourites of jumping the barrier (on the stairs), doubling up, showing something vaguely ticket like or just going to Reading West instead . Of course, these could apply anywhere.

 

[jon0844]

I think a lot of people are hoping that first get the new franchise since they have started to sort things out so far

The franchising system doesn't seem able to take this into account though, does it? It's like starting from scratch.

I wonder if a TOC should be given the option to extend the franchise if it meets all of its targets/requirements laid down. If so, there's an incentive to do a good job for the whole time. If you didn't meet the targets, you may as well not be allowed to bid for that particular franchise afterwards either (until it comes up again).

 

[87015]

The franchising system doesn't seem able to take this into account though, does it? It's like starting from scratch.

I wonder if a TOC should be given the option to extend the franchise if it meets all of its targets/requirements laid down. If so, there's an incentive to do a good job for the whole time. If you didn't meet the targets, you may as well not be allowed to bid for that particular franchise afterwards either (until it comes up again).

But the franchise is only up for renewal because First walked away from the extension as they had backloaded all the franchise payments so don't have to pay the DfT the £1b or so that would be due with it!

 

[starrymarkb]

First were already on revenue support (cap and collar) for FGW and were losing money hand over fist (even with the support) following a large drop in passenger numbers. You could also argue that it's going to be harder for them to make their targets while the GWML is disrupted for electrification.

 

[jon0844]

I do not want first to win it their refurbishment of the HST interior is the worst in the country. Lighting is too bright even though the lights are on half lighting. The seats are the worst all you see is grey everywhere because they have crammed in more seats and taken away most of the tables, taken away half of the toilets, taken away most the buffet cars. It is worst then flying Ryanair at times.

I think the FGW HSTs are nicer than the EC ones. Since turning off half the lights, I don't regard them as too bright either. Still, both of us are simply giving our personal opinion. I suppose it's what the general public think, although as Flamingo has pointed out, it's not as if the new operator will change anything.

<Re National Express> That was under a Labour government. The Conserveral Democratives revoked this ban (rather stupidly IMO).

Can you imagine the headlines in the Daily Mail if DB won, and NX had been banned from bidding? Can you not see the comments from Ed Miliband and the unions on how we'd given a franchise to a German company while banning a British one?

I would hope that rather than implicitly restrict someone from bidding (with all the controversy that would be associated with it), they simply make sure they can rule out a company with justified reasoning.

Hasn't NX taken on Elaine Holt to help with bids? Presumably on a very good salary, I can't imagine she'd be told to pick and choose what to bid for. I am sure they'll bid for anything.

None of the bidders know what the others are bidding.

It isn't unknown for bidders to find out what others are bidding. Sometimes it's quite obvious when bids undercut another by only a few pounds!

 

[Schnellzug]

I must say all this technical stuff about the infinite complexities of franchising and bidding goes over my head. I've no idea what going cap in hand and paying backhanders and all the rest of it mean, and to be honest I'm not to sorry about this. One thing I have wondered, though, is, if, as people have been talking, bidders have or haven't or should or shouldn't be ruled out if they make a fiasco and a pig's ear of things, how come Virgin were not only not stripped of West Coast but protected by the Government from competition after they made such a pig's ear of CrossCountry?

 

[jon0844]

Paying backhanders isn't the normal part of a bidding process (or maybe it is!).

 

[starrymarkb]

I must say all this technical stuff about the infinite complexities of franchising and bidding goes over my head. I've no idea what going cap in hand and paying backhanders and all the rest of it mean, and to be honest I'm not to sorry about this. One thing I have wondered, though, is, if, as people have been talking, bidders have or haven't or should or shouldn't be ruled out if they make a fiasco and a pig's ear of things, how come Virgin were not only not stripped of West Coast but protected by the Government from competition after they made such a pig's ear of CrossCountry?

IIRC Cap and Collar basically means that the TOCs profits and losses are limited. If revenue is less then expected then the government will share the losses, conversely if revenue is higher then expected the government will take a cut of the TOCs profit.

 

[Morgsie]

I don't know about Premiums, cap and collar etc.

Out of the list, Another vote for First to retain the Franchise.

RENFE are the outside choice.

NO to Arriva and National Express based on their poor track record

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If Arriva or Renfe are the successful bidders for the FGW franchise what percentage of rail operations in this country will then be in the hands of the state railways of other countries? Am I the only one to think that it's strange that the profits made by British TOCs mostly go to foreign railways? Is our government indirectly funding the national rail networks of France, Belgium and Germany?

All this is old hat. Transport companies are increasingly multi-national.
First and Stagecoach etc all have foreign operations (bus and airport if not rail).
Arriva is a bit different because they were acquired by DB, but they operate in many EU countries managed from a UK base.
The airlines are equally diversifying across borders (BA/IB, KL/AF/AZ, LH/LX/OS etc).
Eurostar is now a single TOC with operations in 3 countries, rather than 3 national part-TOCs.
HS1 is leased to 2 Canadian pension funds.
etc etc

The foreign operators also know they are under competitive attack, and want to build a cross-border capability to spread the risks. It's the single market at work.
All EU TOCs are also now operating at arm's length from their governments, and are under privatisation pressure.

We don't know much about how RENFE or Trenitalia, or even Keolis would operate a UK franchise, but I bet it would be mostly fronted by a team of well-known UK rail managers recruited for their local experience.
Like Premier League managers, the same people seem to keep turning up at different TOCs, whatever the ownership.

As long as a TOC meets the franchise commitments and pays the necessary bonds, I don't think the DfT cares who wins.
In any case nothing on the passenger railway has been permanently "sold off".

 

[Aictos]

I believe the elevator call button at Reading sets off an alarm where people can see with CCTV if you really need to use the elevator and then call it for you. If there is a possiblity of fare evasion then while you are waiting they could send staff over to ask for your ticket.

Welwyn Garden City has the same setup as Reading.

 

[bnm]

We don't know much about how RENFE or Trenitalia, or even Keolis would operate a UK franchise, but I bet it would be mostly fronted by a team of well-known UK rail managers recruited for their local experience.
Like Premier League managers, the same people seem to keep turning up at different TOCs, whatever the ownership.

Top man at Greater Anglia has precisely zero experience of UK rail operation. Along with one or two of the directors.

Just saying....