GOT CAUGHT USING 11-15 OYSTER. HELP!!

r4miii said:

oh where i was going today my sibling never has, so would this be an issue for me? plus i never actually got to the location i just tapped in at the start point of my journey thats where i got caught.

Yes they took the card, my sibling starts school soon so i wanted to order a new oyster but idk if theres a point since will it be blacklisted or what

Click to expand...

Until the new card arrives your sibling will have to pay fares (and as it's you that caused the problem, I suggest you give her the funds to pay, which as they can't use cash anymore in London means putting money on normal blue oyster). If they have contactless bank card, give them money to cover them using it.

You have to make a choice, either involve your parents for them to do it, or get your sibling to phone up and get a replacement. If you do it you are going to get your family in a bigger hole because when they ask why it needs replacing, saying you took it, misused it and had it confiscated, will not improve things.

You need to be aware these passes are issued subject to terms and conditions, and your misuse is more likely to get you (rather than your sibling) blacklisted, which might come back and bite you if you subsequently apply for student pass.

ikcdab said:

To be honest, your writing is almost unintelligible to me. If this is how spoke on the phone, then no wonder you got the wrong answers.
The the fact that you were scammed is not the reason you got the penalty fare. The reason you have been stopped is because you used a card your weren't entitled to. You need to stop linking the two as it won't help you.

Click to expand...

No I just cba to type full words wth. I know it’s not the reason why… I’ve only linked it once where I’ve explained it was the rreason why I had to use the correlate. It’s obvious, even to me, other than that it doesn’t correlate… the point is I used it. End of

notmyrealname said:

I think sadly some of us aren't fluent in text speak. I'm one.

Click to expand...

Haha nw

Snow1964 said:

Until the new card arrives your sibling will have to pay fares (and as it's you that caused the problem, I suggest you give her the funds to pay, which as they can't use cash anymore in London means putting money on normal blue oyster). If they have contactless bank card, give them money to cover them using it.

You have to make a choice, either involve your parents for them to do it, or get your sibling to phone up and get a replacement. If you do it you are going to get your family in a bigger hole because when they ask why it needs replacing, saying you took it, misused it and had it confiscated, will not improve things.

You need to be aware these passes are issued subject to terms and conditions, and your misuse is more likely to get you (rather than your sibling) blacklisted, which might come back and bite you if you subsequently apply for student pass.

Click to expand...

No, I have to pay. Its not necessarily who’s card it is to be honest. And what do you mean when the new card arrives? do you mean when I order the new one.
the people who advised me to order a new one know I got caught.

Snow1964 said:

Until the new card arrives your sibling will have to pay fares (and as it's you that caused the problem, I suggest you give her the funds to pay, which as they can't use cash anymore in London means putting money on normal blue oyster). If they have contactless bank card, give them money to cover them using it.

You have to make a choice, either involve your parents for them to do it, or get your sibling to phone up and get a replacement. If you do it you are going to get your family in a bigger hole because when they ask why it needs replacing, saying you took it, misused it and had it confiscated, will not improve things.

You need to be aware these passes are issued subject to terms and conditions, and your misuse is more likely to get you (rather than your sibling) blacklisted, which might come back and bite you if you subsequently apply for student pass.

Click to expand...

Damn thanks tho. I’m panicking loads ahhhh mannn wish I could just go back in time

r4miii said:

No I just cba to type full words wth. I know it’s not the reason why… I’ve only linked it once where I’ve explained it was the rreason why I had to use the correlate. It’s obvious, even to me, other than that it doesn’t correlate… the point is I used it. End of

Click to expand...

I suggest you write in full sentences here because you are asking strangers - who are sort-of experts in what happens in these cases - for advice. It's important you aren't misunderstood.

AlterEgo said:

I suggest you write in full sentences here because you are asking strangers - who are sort-of experts in what happens in these cases - for advice. It's important you aren't misunderstood.

AlterEgo said:

I suggest you write in full sentences here because you are asking strangers - who are sort-of experts in what happens in tfor advice. It's important you aren't misunderstood.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Will do

As a non-expert I am reluctant to put in my thoughts. However, it seems that you have not realised that you are dealing with TfL and it works to slightly different rules to the rest of the railway network. All those posts on Reddit, TicTac, and so on are by non-experts who are often not sure of who they are dealing with, which may not be TfL (so different rules), or what they are talking about because they are just involved in one case. People here see a lot of cases and do know what they are talking about.

Gloster said:

As a non-expert I am reluctant to put in my thoughts. However, it seems that you have not realised that you are dealing with TfL and it works to slightly different rules to the rest of the railway network. All those posts on Reddit, TicTac, and so on are by non-experts who are often not sure of who they are dealing with, which may not be TfL (so different rules), or what they are talking about because they are just involved in one case. People here see a lot of cases and do know what they are talking about.

Click to expand...

I understand your point but I’m pretty sure I checked tfl , I know people who this has happened to also and they told me the same. Maybe it changed I’m not sure

r4miii said:

I understand your point but I’m pretty sure I checked tfl , I know people who this has happened to also and they told me the same. Maybe it changed I’m not sure

Click to expand...

Are you saying you actively researched what the outcome might be to using the pass, even before you did so?

pdq said:

Are you saying you actively researched what the outcome might be to using the pass, even before you did so?

Click to expand...

No… after…

r4miii said:

I understand your point but I’m pretty sure I checked tfl , I know people who this has happened to also and they told me the same. Maybe it changed I’m not sure

Click to expand...

If you talk to someone on a general helpline at TfL then they will not know anything about their prosecution policy nor will they talk about it with you in detail. You should not contact TfL until you receive a letter. This is in your best interests.

AlterEgo said:

If you talk to someone on a general helpline at TfL then they will not know anything about their prosecution policy nor will they talk about it with you in detail. You should not contact TfL until you receive a letter. This is in your best interests.

Click to expand...

yh but i was put through to the people who deal with penalties. they’re the ones who told me so surely they would know. hence i’m confused.

yes i will just wait and see

One reason why it is counter-productive to try to investigate anything at this point is that nothing anyone from TfL or anywhere else says at this point prevents TfL from taking action in the future. Even if someone from TfL tells you that they'll send a warning or fine in the post or similar, TfL are not required or bound to keep to that.

The advice being given here is appropriate: you have to wait for TfL to go through its own process, which you can't influence at this stage, and then read and consider the communication they have with you in the future. I suggest that you put this out of your mind for now, make sure you pay the full and correct fare for every journey you take, and then come back here when you receive a letter from TfL so that people here can give you some advice on how to respond.

Some or all of this may appear unfair to you, and people you talk to about it might agree with you. Unfortunately things can be unfair without being banned or outside the legal options open to TfL. Sometimes people get issued penalty fares on the spot. Sometimes people get away with committing crimes, particularly ticketing crimes. But often people are prosecuted, particularly when the offence is mis-using a card which offers free or cheap travel to a limited group of people and so costs London taxpayers a lot of money.

Post number 2 in this thread from AlterEgo sets out what is likely to happen in the future, which will probably end with either a form you send back to the court to enter your plea or a brief requirement to attend a court hearing, resulting in a fine and other financial penalties, but - aside from saving up to make it easier to pay the fines and charges which a court is likely to require you to pay - there is nothing you can do at this point.

Welcome to the forum!

Transport for London take misuse of Zip Oyster cards very seriously and a prosecution under the TfL Bylaws is the usual outcome.

As for what happens next TfL will send you a Verification Letter, normally within a couple of weeks. The letter will ask you to confirm or deny the incident and ask you to give any mitigating circumstances which you would like them to take into account when deciding how to proceed. There is no point in contacting TfL, the Investigations and Prosecutions Department will not talk to you about the case over the phone, and customer services are not knowledgable enough to be able to advise on this sort of thing.

I suggest you mention the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

TfL generally do not offer out of court settlements although in some very limited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecution. Prosecutions are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to tae into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.

If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:

- A fine based on your income
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the TfL Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.

A criminal conviction for a railway ticketing matter won't normally affect future career prospects but do note that legally we are unable to comment or assist when it comes to immigration issues.

Here's a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy which you might find worth reading:

pedr said:

One reason why it is counter-productive to try to investigate anything at this point is that nothing anyone from TfL or anywhere else says at this point prevents TfL from taking action in the future. Even if someone from TfL tells you that they'll send a warning or fine in the post or similar, TfL are not required or bound to keep to that.

The advice being given here is appropriate: you have to wait for TfL to go through its own process, which you can't influence at this stage, and then read and consider the communication they have with you in the future. I suggest that you put this out of your mind for now, make sure you pay the full and correct fare for every journey you take, and then come back here when you receive a letter from TfL so that people here can give you some advice on how to respond.

Some or all of this may appear unfair to you, and people you talk to about it might agree with you. Unfortunately things can be unfair without being banned or outside the legal options open to TfL. Sometimes people get issued penalty fares on the spot. Sometimes people get away with committing crimes, particularly ticketing crimes. But often people are prosecuted, particularly when the offence is mis-using a card which offers free or cheap travel to a limited group of people and so costs London taxpayers a lot of money.

Post number 2 in this thread from AlterEgo sets out what is likely to happen in the future, which will probably end with either a form you send back to the court to enter your plea or a brief requirement to attend a court hearing, resulting in a fine and other financial penalties, but - aside from saving up to make it easier to pay the fines and charges which a court is likely to require you to pay - there is nothing you can do at this point.

Click to expand...

thanks your right.
but will the court outcome go on your record. i’ve heard no if the police aren’t involved but just want to be sure.

and what would actually happen in court

r4miii said:

yh but i was put through to the people who deal with penalties. they’re the ones who told me so surely they would know. hence i’m confused.

yes i will just wait and see

Click to expand...

You haven't been given a penalty fare though, you have been reported for prosecution. This is entirely different, and much more serious. You were talking to people who don't deal with criminal/Bylaw matters and hence won't have a clue.

r4miii said:

yh but i was put through to the people who deal with penalties. they’re the ones who told me so surely they would know. hence i’m confused.

yes i will just wait and see

Click to expand...

You have not been issued with a penalty. You have been reported for investigation and potential prosecution for mis use of another person's 11-15 Oyster Card.

r4miii said:

thanks your right.
but will the court outcome go on your record. i’ve heard no if the police aren’t involved but just want to be sure.

and what would actually happen in court

Click to expand...

In basic terms if a court finds you guilty of an offence (or you plead guilty) - that is a matter of public record (ie people can potentially find out about it).

In this thread Post #20 and others after set out in broad terms what would happen in court, if you were required to attend and might give you a good idea if you have a read.


But you are getting ahead of yourself. You need to wait until you hear from TfL about all this.

r4miii said:

thanks your right.
but will the court outcome go on your record. i’ve heard no if the police aren’t involved but just want to be sure.

and what would actually happen in court

Click to expand...

Read the post I made above. It answers your questions.

r4miii said:

thanks your right.
but will the court outcome go on your record. i’ve heard no if the police aren’t involved but just want to be sure.

and what would actually happen in court

Click to expand...

You may not have to go to court. There are procedures which allow people to plead guilty to minor crimes they are charged with by post. The court then issues the sentence, and writes to the defendant with the outcome and how to pay the fines and other fees/charges.

Most train companies use this for most of their cases. It appears that TfL sometimes uses a different procedure which does require a court appearance, but that will be clear when the case gets to that stage, in a few weeks or a few months.

Hadders sets out some advice on the ongoing effects of a criminal conviction. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act says that for purposes covered by the Act like most job applications, insurance, etc, a conviction punished with a fine is 'spent' 12 months after the date of the conviction/hearing and can be ignored after that. Regulated professions and other organisations may have the right to know about all convictions, no matter how minor, but are likely to take a pragmatic and proportionate view of them. We cannot comment on UK or foreign government's rules or processes etc relating to immigration, visas, and the like because that kind of advice can only be given by licensed immigration advisors.

AlterEgo said:

You haven't been given a penalty fare though, you have been reported for prosecution. This is entirely different, and much more serious. You were talking to people who don't deal with criminal/Bylaw matters and hence won't have a clue.

Click to expand...

how do you know if i havent got a penalty fare? cause even i dont know that

pedr said:

You may not have to go to court. There are procedures which allow people to plead guilty to minor crimes they are charged with by post. The court then issues the sentence, and writes to the defendant with the outcome and how to pay the fines and other fees/charges.

Most train companies use this for most of their cases. It appears that TfL sometimes uses a different procedure which does require a court appearance, but that will be clear when the case gets to that stage, in a few weeks or a few months.

Hadders sets out some advice on the ongoing effects of a criminal conviction. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act says that for purposes covered by the Act like most job applications, insurance, etc, a conviction punished with a fine is 'spent' 12 months after the date of the conviction/hearing and can be ignored after that. Regulated professions and other organisations may have the right to know about all convictions, no matter how minor, but are likely to take a pragmatic and proportionate view of them. We cannot comment on UK or foreign government's rules or processes etc relating to immigration, visas, and the like because that kind of advice can only be given by licensed immigration advisors.

Click to expand...

what about universities

Because a penalty fare is issued on the spot. You can then pay it and the matter is closed. You haven't said that you were asked to pay on the spot, so therefore a penalty fare was not issued. You were told to expect a letter.
The letter might give you the opportunity to settle out of court or or it might say they intend to prosecute.

r4miii said:

how do you know if i havent got a penalty fare? cause even i dont know that

Click to expand...

A penalty fare must be issued at the time; you would have been told you were being penalty fared, and you would have the paperwork, instructions to pay, and information on how to appeal. But in any case, TfL don’t issue penalty fares for this sort of fare evasion, as has been said multiple times.

ikcdab said:

Because a penalty fare is issued on the spot. You can then pay it and the matter is closed. You haven't said that you were asked to pay on the spot, so therefore a penalty fare was not issued. You were told to expect a letter.
The letter might give you the opportunity to settle out of court or or it might say they intend to prosecute.

Click to expand...

but i know people who got the penalty fare and it wasn’t issued on the spot. thats why im confused

the guy who took my details doesnt determine what i get he just sends them in so how can he give me a penalty fare there and then

AlterEgo said:

A penalty fare must be issued at the time; you would have been told you were being penalty fared, and you would have the paperwork, instructions to pay, and information on how to appeal. But in any case, TfL don’t issue penalty fares for this sort of fare evasion, as has been said multiple times.

Click to expand...

but i know people who got the penalty fare and it wasn’t issued on the spot. thats why im confused

the guy who took my details doesnt determine what i get he just sends them in so how can he give me a penalty fare there and then

i know people who have had to pay penalty fares for doing this for the purpose of paying less

I think you should put this thread aside for a while, have a cup of tea and think of something else (even if that may be difficult), and then come back and calmly read the advice that has been given on this thread, particularly that given by WesternLancer, Fawkes Cat, AlterEgo and particularly Hadders. If you can do so you should then fully understand the situation you are in and what you need to do, which, in essence, is do nothing until you receive a letter from TfL or someone acting for them.

The advice to wait for the letter from TfL is correct. But I notice that in post #19 the OP said.

i never actually got to the location i just tapped in at the start point of my journey thats where i got caught.

Click to expand...

Does this indicate that no journey was made therefore no fare was avoided? If no fare was avoided, but the TfL inspector stopped the OP and pointed out that the card he had tapped in belonged to someone else, is that still a Byelaw offence?

JBuchananGB said:

The advice to wait for the letter from TfL is correct. But I notice that in post #19 the OP said.

Does this indicate that no journey was made therefore no fare was avoided? If no fare was avoided, but the TfL inspector stopped the OP and pointed out that the card he had tapped in belonged to someone else, is that still a Byelaw offence?

Click to expand...

yh i didnt manage to get on thr train i tapped in and he took it off me

JBuchananGB said:

Does this indicate that no journey was made therefore no fare was avoided? If no fare was avoided, but the TfL inspector stopped the OP and pointed out that the card he had tapped in belonged to someone else, is that still a Byelaw offence?

Click to expand...

Yes, if it was on TfL it was almost certainly a compulsory ticket area.

r4miii said:

but i know people who got the penalty fare and it wasn’t issued on the spot. thats why im confused

the guy who took my details doesnt determine what i get he just sends them in so how can he give me a penalty fare there and then


but i know people who got the penalty fare and it wasn’t issued on the spot. thats why im confused

Click to expand...

You are confused, or they are confused. Penalty Fares can only be issued on the spot. You get the paperwork there and then, you are told how much it is and why, and you are informed about your appeal rights.

r4miii said:

the guy who took my details doesnt determine what i get he just sends them in so how can he give me a penalty fare there and then

Click to expand...

He’s taken your details and sent them in precisely because you are being reported for prosecution and not penalty fared.

It isn’t your fault that you’re confused. Some train companies do things which look a little bit like penalty fares issued by post. But when we use the words “Penalty Fare” we mean a specific option available to some front-line railway staff. These must be issued on the spot, with a printed notice explaining what the penalty amount is and how to pay or appeal. That isn’t what happened here, which might be for many reasons - not all staff are trained to issue these, not all will have the equipment to print one all of the time, TfL might (reasonably) decide that they don’t usually issue Penalty Fares for attempted use of a concessionary pass, etc. The reason isn’t going to help you, I’m afraid.

If this was travel on/an interaction with Thameslink, or GWR, or other train companies then we’d be advising that they were likely to write to you and, in the end, offering not to prosecute if you paid a sum of money to settle the matter, although they still have the right to prosecute. But both because of their general approach to ticketing offences and because the improper use of a free or significantly discounted pass is such a major issue for TfL and they need to ensure that as many people as possible know that it is completely unacceptable, TfL will usually choose to prosecute, which is why you have received the advice in this thread.

You have asked about universities: you should read the application form and the information on criminal convictions from any university you want to apply for, or speak to the Students’ Union if you are a current university student to get information and advice on what you should disclose and what the effect that is likely to have. In only exceedingly rare circumstances would a conviction for misusing a rail pass be any kind of problem for future study or employment. Someone has posted information from some healthcare regulators earlier in the thread, and universities are very unlikely to take a stricter view than that, even if the course is connected with a regulated profession.

Gloster said:

I think you should put this thread aside for a while, have a cup of tea and think of something else (even if that may be difficult), and then come back and calmly read the advice that has been given on this thread, particularly that given by WesternLancer, Fawkes Cat, AlterEgo and particularly Hadders. If you can do so you should then fully understand the situation you are in and what you need to do, which, in essence, is do nothing until you receive a letter from TfL or someone acting for them.

Click to expand...

I do think this is very good advice, as there is very little or even nothing that can be done until TfL contact @r4miii

To @r4miii - it is worth bearing in mind that the info provided on here is coming from people who have seen lots of these sorts of cases with TfL over the years, so is well informed and accurate. I realise the situation is difficult (especially if you are out of pocket as a result of a financial scam, which will not make things easy).

If you feel you can, I would think it would be a good idea to also talk to your family about the situation, as they will hopefully want to help and support you with this.

When you hear back from TfL I am sure people will give you advice here on what options you have and the best courses of action open to you.

WesternLancer said:

I do think this is very good advice, as there is very little or even nothing that can be done until TfL contact @r4miii

To @r4miii - it is worth bearing in mind that the info provided on here is coming from people who have seen lots of these sorts of cases with TfL over the years, so is well informed and accurate. I realise the situation is difficult (especially if you are out of pocket as a result of a financial scam, which will not make things easy).

If you feel you can, I would think it would be a good idea to also talk to your family about the situation, as they will hopefully want to help and support you with this.

When you hear back from TfL I am sure people will give you advice here on what options you have and the best courses of action open to you.

Click to expand...

ok thank you so much for those kind words.
i will get back to you guys once i get the letter