First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

Goldfish62 · 15 Feb 2024

TheGrandWazoo said:
There is informed speculation and clearly "things are afoot" but that is different to the very definite statements made by First South in Somerset.

Yes, clearly there's a lot of politics involved in what's going on on Somerset. Sounds to me that First are deliberately "leaking" intentions to put pressure on the council to find a solution at a time when it's already under extreme pressure with its finances.

Re Cornwall, there's stuff I hear from reliable sources that leads me to conclude all is not well there, not just with First (can't say I'm surprised - it's all just seemed too good to be true over the last few years). It wouldn't be right for me to enlarge on this forum, though and the council does have BSIP funding through to March 2024 to maintain the network so fingers crossed any cuts are not as drastic as may be feared, at least for this year.

buscoaster said:
Is 'good management' actually good if they lose money? Its one thing investing etc - its good from the passenger perspective - but if it loses money then how can it actually be 'good'?

Depends - if there are short term losses as a result of spending on investment which results in long-term gains outweighing the original cost of the investment to the business, then that's usually a good thing.

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Busaholic · 15 Feb 2024

Goldfish62 said:
Yes, clearly there's a lot of politics involved in what's going on on Somerset. Sounds to me that First are deliberately "leaking" intentions to put pressure on the council to find a solution at a time when it's already under extreme pressure with its finances.

Re Cornwall, there's stuff I hear from reliable sources that leads me to conclude all is not well there, not just with First (can't say I'm surprised - it's all just seemed too good to be true over the last few years). It wouldn't be right for me to enlarge on this forum, though and the council does have BSIP funding through to March 2024 to maintain the network so fingers crossed any cuts are not as drastic as may be feared, at least for this year.

Speaking of politics, with every constituency in Cornwall currently having a Tory MP, but with no local elections here for another year or so and an incumbent Conservative majority on the council, there may well be jiggery pokery to keep as many balls in the air for as long as possible.

Goldfish62 said:
I can quite imagine two out of those three.

Re Mousehole the only reason it went to 4bph was due to the lower capacity of the Sprinters. Not that the timetable works in the summer.

3bph wouldn't save any buses or duties, but would run more reliably. However, would there be sufficient capacity?

I realise 3bph wouldn't save any buses and duties, and is not ideal with the low capacity of the Sprinters, but we both know that at various times currently 4bph aren't able to be worked even when there is what passes for full bus availability! I don't ever have any inside information on the bus side, but I'm a compulsory member of Penzance Business Improvement District and, through both it and talking to business owners and friends in the know about Jubilee Pool/ the current 'temporary' closing may not be as straightforward as presented. Like West Cornwall Hospital, the Pool has never been far from a funding crisis in the 36 years I've been here, and few seem to use the bus stops on the Promenade there anyway. The absence of stops at the Wharfside Centre reveal the whole thing was never thought out.

Sleepy · 16 Feb 2024

Goldfish said : Usually the Spring seasonal enhancements have been introduced the weekend before Easter. However, OTS have registered timetable ammendments commencing on 2nd April, ie the week after Easter, which would indicate any service changes will take place on Easter Sunday itself.

richw said:
Schools aren’t breaking up until the day before Good Friday down here this year

Lands End route to St Ives was registered yesterday to commence from 31st March (Easter Sunday)

EnviroExplorer · 19 Feb 2024

Forthcoming service registrations can now be viewed on Bustimes, most effective from 31st March with the exception of a new T2A effective from 26th May running St Ives to Hayle (can’t help but feel that’s an unnecessary renumber of the previous Sunseeker).

Link below has them all listed, I’ll let someone more local dig through it all for the changes…

PH0004983 – FIRST SOUTH WEST LIMITED – bustimes.org

DaveHarries · 19 Feb 2024

EnviroExplorer said:
Forthcoming service registrations can now be viewed on Bustimes, most effective from 31st March with the exception of a new T2A effective from 26th May running St Ives to Hayle (can’t help but feel that’s an unnecessary renumber of the previous Sunseeker).

Link below has them all listed, I’ll let someone more local dig through it all for the changes…

PH0004983 – FIRST SOUTH WEST LIMITED – bustimes.org

From reading that list you get the seasonal changes (Mousehole, Exmoor Coaster, etc.) but also, by the looks of it, extension of the T1/T2 (Penzance/St. Ives - Truro) through to St. Austell on the route of the 27. If the T1/T2 do extend to St. Austell then that would also be a reconstitution of the old 518 (St. Austell - Penzance) which Western National ran years ago - there is a timetable book online from 1969 with the timetable in. I wonder if the Eden Project will be on the route. As for the 27 (Bodmin - St. Austell - Truro) that would perhaps be shortened to run Bodmin - St. Austell only.

As for the T2A: maybe Truro - Hayle via. St. Ives?

Dave

Andyh82 · 19 Feb 2024

There must be some admin errors in that list as it reckons the T3 is Newquay to Truro via Caribs Bay, which doesn’t seem likely

It’ll be interesting to see what happens with the 24 splitting into two, will half of it now be able to use bigger buses if it isn’t serving Fowey

richw · 19 Feb 2024

There’s a lot of spelling errors on the registrations, the new destination blind sets (I was in Truro and Camborne yesterday and witnessed these in passing, seen 2 spelling mistakes in the handful of destinations seen) , and also the staff notice that was leaked to me a few days ago showing all the changes.

DaveHarries said:
As for the 27 (Bodmin - St. Austell - Truro) that would perhaps be shortened to run Bodmin - St. Austell only.

First haven’t operated the Bodmin - st Austell leg for a couple of years, that’s operated by Go Ahead as a tendered service

Accelerator59 · 20 Feb 2024

richw said:
There’s a lot of spelling errors on the registrations, the new destination blind sets (I was in Truro and Camborne yesterday and witnessed these in passing, seen 2 spelling mistakes in the handful of destinations seen) , and also the staff notice that was leaked to me a few days ago showing all the changes.

First haven’t operated the Bodmin - st Austell leg for a couple of years, that’s operated by Go Ahead as a tendered service

I noticed a couple of Tinners with the ‘via’ locations back on the destination blind.

Goldfish62 · 20 Feb 2024

I've been passed the detailed list of changes for Cornwall, most of which can be deduced from the registrations anyway. Hope admin are OK with me just posting these Screenshots as I haven't got time currently to reproduce them in text as well.

buscoaster · 20 Feb 2024

Interesting to see from the registration that the Exmoor Coaster will continue to Ilfracombe still

Andyh82 · 20 Feb 2024

Top marks for whoever decided to create a summer extra service called CAT to run alongside MOUSE

83G/84D · 20 Feb 2024

Andyh82 said:
Top marks for whoever decided to create a summer extra service called CAT to run alongside MOUSE

If you are not aware a certain children's book by Antonia Barber probably had something to do with it.

TheGrandWazoo · 20 Feb 2024

Goldfish62 said:
I've been passed the detailed list of changes for Cornwall, most of which can be deduced from the registrations anyway. Hope admin are OK with me just posting these Screenshots as I haven't got time currently to reproduce them in text as well.

I'd seen something similar - looks like the cuts being enacted aren't as great as feared.

The CAT joining the MOUSE is an interesting move and perhaps provides a bit more certainty though it is a bit of an indictment on the Sprinters. T1 being taken out of West Cornwall Retail Park is understandable, though not certain about St EARTH rail station. Still, the retention of the T1 at half hourly to Penzance, and the retention of the 15 min headway from Hayle to Truro, is definitely better than might have been expected.

The changes to the U1 are perhaps as expected though the continued decline of the U2 is sad to see but guess two hourly of an evening is a sign of the night-time economy post Covid.

In terms of the open toppers, the loss of the Falmouth service is not a great surprise. The T2a to Gwithian being closed tops is also perhaps not a shocker either though the U4 getting additional services is a bit of a surprise. The tiering of the Lands End and Atlantic services for low, mid and peak season makes sense, though I'm intrigued to see that Sundays on Lands End are going to be lower.... I can only think that it will be a curtailment of later services? Also, the Tin Coaster has bitten the dust - always a bit of an odd confection for a not obvious tourist service (though I did enjoy it with an open topper a couple of years ago).

The devil will be in the detail as regards the actual timetables, and begin to wonder if Meva is now going to get deckers?

All very interesting

richw · 20 Feb 2024

TheGrandWazoo said:
and begin to wonder if Meva is now going to get deckers?

That’s what I’m led to believe, the singles regularly left people behind in summer but they were only travelling meva to pentewan.

I’m led to believe the tinner running through to Newquay and st Austell sees an overall vehicle requirement reduction as reduces time sat around at either end of routes

Andyh82 · 20 Feb 2024

richw said:
That’s what I’m led to believe, the singles regularly left people behind in summer but they were only travelling meva to pentewan.

I’m led to believe the tinner running through to Newquay and st Austell sees an overall vehicle requirement reduction as reduces time sat around at either end of routes

It will do as the 91 currently runs to Truro College

Not serving W Cornwall retail park is a good idea as currently they have to queue for that busy roundabout twice

83G/84D · 20 Feb 2024

Andyh82 said:
It will do as the 91 currently runs to Truro College

Not serving W Cornwall retail park is a good idea as currently they have to queue for that busy roundabout twice

There are stops in each direction just the Hayle side of that roundabout with a footbridge over the A30 so it shouldn't be too inconvenient for anyone using the retail park.

Busaholic · 20 Feb 2024

83G/84D said:
If you are not aware a certain children's book by Antonia Barber probably had something to do with it.

Please don't forget Nicola Bayley, the illustrator whose superb drawings contributed a great deal to the worldwide success of the book. I estimate my small bookshop sold over a thousand copies, hardback and paperback, over the years and I can still remember the 10 figure ISBN of the paperback version. Ironically, given the difficulties with getting buses past the Coastguard Hotel down to the Harbour over the years, the former location was the place where the book was launched!

farwest · 20 Feb 2024

The U1 and U1A still have loads of waiting time and from Newquay they still miss the connection to Falmouth. I hoped once the A30 main road works at Chiverton had been done the service would go back to how it was.
Coming back from Perranporth I have to get off at Chiverton and get on the 304 which gets to the bus station in time for the Falmouth connection. Daft!!

JKP · 20 Feb 2024

A query. Where do Buses terminate in Fowey. The network change overview posted earlier today says the Safe Harbour Hotel, but I thought that point had been discontinued due to safety concerns?

83G/84D · 20 Feb 2024

JKP said:
A query. Where do Buses terminate in Fowey. The network change overview posted earlier today says the Safe Harbour Hotel, but I thought that point had been discontinued due to safety concerns?

Busaholic said:
Please don't forget Nicola Bayley, the illustrator whose superb drawings contributed a great deal to the worldwide success of the book. I estimate my small bookshop sold over a thousand copies, hardback and paperback, over the years and I can still remember the 10 figure ISBN of the paperback version. Ironically, given the difficulties with getting buses past the Coastguard Hotel down to the Harbour over the years, the former location was the place where the book was launched!

First Buses still stop at Safe Harbour. Go Cornwall do a loop around Hanson Drive, there's a stop just a short walk up the road from Safe Harbour.

Busaholic:- You are correct the illustrations are great and I should have mentioned the illustrator as well.

RELL6L · 20 Feb 2024

Was expecting worse. I am surprised at Fowey being reduced to every 90 minutes. I wonder if Go Cornwall will be varying their route there either to every 90 to fit in with First or every 30/60 to maintain a bus every 30 minutes combined?

Andyh82 · 20 Feb 2024

It shows all that ‘I wouldn’t be surprised if [filler negativity here]’ that was going on over the last few weeks, predictions that The Tinner would be half hourly, other services withdrawn, wasn’t necessary.

Busaholic · 20 Feb 2024

Andyh82 said:
It shows all that ‘I wouldn’t be surprised if [filler negativity here]’ that was going on over the last few weeks, predictions that The Tinner would be half hourly, other services withdrawn, wasn’t necessary.

But how boring life would be without imagination and speculation! I don't think anyone thought Truro to Camborne would become half hourly, given it was a ten minute interval service at Tinner's inception. I suspect the two legs to Penzance and St Ives have been retained at half hourly as the 17 may not get the summer upgrade once implied.

Goldfish62 · 20 Feb 2024

Andyh82 said:
It shows all that ‘I wouldn’t be surprised if [filler negativity here]’ that was going on over the last few weeks, predictions that The Tinner would be half hourly, other services withdrawn, wasn’t necessary.

Well yes, but so what? The forum would be a very boring place if we didn't speculate or express opinions.

83G/84D · 20 Feb 2024

DaveHarries said:
From reading that list you get the seasonal changes (Mousehole, Exmoor Coaster, etc.) but also, by the looks of it, extension of the T1/T2 (Penzance/St. Ives - Truro) through to St. Austell on the route of the 27. If the T1/T2 do extend to St. Austell then that would also be a reconstitution of the old 518 (St. Austell - Penzance) which Western National ran years ago - there is a timetable book online from 1969 with the timetable in. I wonder if the Eden Project will be on the route. As for the 27 (Bodmin - St. Austell - Truro) that would perhaps be shortened to run Bodmin - St. Austell only.

As for the T2A: maybe Truro - Hayle via. St. Ives?

Dave

@DaveHarries, I have found a service 18/18A timetable from 1967, one page shown here. I have a 1969 timetable in my collection as well.

Goldfish62 · 20 Feb 2024

83G/84D said:
@DaveHarries, I have found a service 18/18A timetable from 1967, one page shown here.

The service ran as far as St Austell as late as at least the late 70s.

richw · 20 Feb 2024

JKP said:
A query. Where do Buses terminate in Fowey. The network change overview posted earlier today says the Safe Harbour Hotel, but I thought that point had been discontinued due to safety concerns?

Go ahead are using longer vehicles at the request of the council so that Brannel school services can be accommodated on the service bus rather than needing a separate tender, saving the council money. The longer buses can’t safely turn at the safe harbour.

Firsts 44951-44954 are about the longest buses that can turn due to the bollard placement

Snozzel · 21 Feb 2024

farwest said:
The U1 and U1A still have loads of waiting time and from Newquay they still miss the connection to Falmouth. I hoped once the A30 main road works at Chiverton had been done the service would go back to how it was.
Coming back from Perranporth I have to get off at Chiverton and get on the 304 which gets to the bus station in time for the Falmouth connection. Daft!!

Most drivers have been moaning since before christmas about the excess of time and having to wait constantly at timing points. We generally have sympathy for the public who needlessly miss connections or sit twiddling their thumbs.

RELL6L said:
Was expecting worse. I am surprised at Fowey being reduced to every 90 minutes. I wonder if Go Cornwall will be varying their route there either to every 90 to fit in with First or every 30/60 to maintain a bus every 30 minutes combined?

The 90 mins is probably just to fit 1 bus running the service as it currently takes 45mins on a clear run from st austell. The new polmear routing will allow stand time at both ends. I cannot imagine go cornwall altering timings to suit as such joined up thinking rarely seems to happen.

DaveHarries · 22 Feb 2024

Somerset County Council have said on their website that routes 25, 28, 54, 58 & 58A are safe until at least March 2025 but services 25 & 28 will see some changes to their routes and timetables which will include the 25 being, it seems, dropped from Cotford St. Luke meaning that the route will be more direct: service 28 will see revisions in lieu.

Four at risk bus routes safeguarded after Council and Buses of Somerset reach agreement

58,54, 28 and 25 services were in danger of being stopped or reduced

www.somerset.gov.uk

Somerset County Council said:
Somerset Council and First Bus South which operates Buses of Somerset have reached an agreement to ensure four routes in the county can continue to run for another year. [....] Buses of Somerset will continue to run and promote the services for a further year while working with Somerset Council and Somerset Bus Partnership to maintain an ongoing campaign to encourage bus use.

In summary:

Services 54, 58 and 58a all remain unchanged.

Service 25 from Dulverton – Wiveliscombe – Taunton will continue to serve all points of the route, but in order to ensure the service remains viable, the timetable will see some changes. Some daytime journeys will divert on the Service 28 through Cotford St Luke and North Fitzwarren at certain times of the day, these will be renumbered 28a.

Service 28 will be revised, including some direct journeys between Taunton and Minehead, with an express service to Butlins numbered X28, which will operate Mondays to Fridays. Following feedback from stakeholders, the evening services will be retimed to align with trains serving Taunton station.

Dave

Goldfish62 · 22 Feb 2024

Snozzel said:
The 90 mins is probably just to fit 1 bus running the service as it currently takes 45mins on a clear run from st austell. The new polmear routing will allow stand time at both ends. I cannot imagine go cornwall altering timings to suit as such joined up thinking rarely seems to happen.

That'll be for the council to decide, not Go Cornwall. But why would a supported service that it is presumed deemed necessary to run hourly be reduced to every 90 min just to fit in with a commercial decision of another operator?

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