CarrotPie
Member
It's the same here in Finland, and if they do change the station make a point of letting you know about it.
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Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If platforms weren't suppressed people wouldn't "stream", they would arrive in dribs and drabs.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
I think that a lot of qualification is needed to this statement. Particularly in the era of 'booked train only' advance tickets many passengers will arrive at Euston really quite early. This is besides people who may have just missed one train (to Glasgow or wherever) and have 59 minutes to wait for the next.
Is it really a good idea to have these passengers waiting on 'their' (advertised) platform for long periods, possibly whilst other services are still to depart and when there is a significant chance of a platform change, other moves at adjacent platforms and so on?
Surely the point isn't 'suppression' as such, more a genuine question of what is actually the 'least unsuitable' juncture to display the platforms.
Can you give us an idea of how often platform changes occur at a comparably busy Finnish terminal station and how passengers are advised - displays, announcements, text alerts, staff presence or whatever? Thanks.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Most other stations in the country think yes, that's fine.
Outside of severe disruption platforming at Euston is fairly consistent.
CarrotPie
Member
Helsinki's central station, the country's intercity hub, has 19 platforms, an intensive commuter service and 45 million passengers/year (with virtually no interchanges). Firstly, it has three platform areas: the east (1-4) and west (13-19) side platforms for their repective commuter services and the central, longer platforms (5-12), used for long-distance services. Services virtually always stay in the same platform group.
Platforms are never changed without good reason - usually because the incoming train is late (or the outgoing hasn't left yet!) and it gets diverted into the designated contingency platform (4 for the east side, used for a hot spare off-peak, 11 for the centre and 13 for the west side). When they are, the new platform number is highlighted red on all displays. In addition, it's shown on the old platform's boards so if you turn up there, you know where to go. An announcement is made in Finnish, Swedish and English ("InterCity 178 to Tampere leaves exceptionally from track 11") not long after the platform is changed (usually 20-30 minutes out). If you've booked a ticket on the VR app, it'll send you a notification letting you know in no uncertain terms where to go.
One stop up the line at Pasila, 5 minutes out from Helsinki, where every service stops, the main route has a pair of island platforms for the faster commuter and intercity services. Intercity services are often held here for connections (or break down!) from the other route (there's a Y-style junction just south): this allows them to divert around that without inconveniencing passengers. Pasila has 460,000 interchanges/year and 17.9 million entries/exits. There are no fewer than three completely different ways to change between the 10 platforms.
I should add that there are no ticket barriers in Finland and you can walk onto the platforms from the surrounding streets in umpteen different places. Platforms are never supressed (and sometimes displayed up to 12 hours before!) and you're always allowed on as soon as the train rolls in from the depot or from its previous working.
All the passenger stats are from 2019.
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This has been discussed before, but sometimes the issue (as in #495) is late arrivals, which necessitates a late departure. Now this would better if it amended the departure time by 5 mins accordingly with an "expected" time so people would be less panick. Committing to a minimum boarding time is setting up for failure, even if there are genuine issues with late notice advertisements.
CarrotPie
Member
Why?
As I said, due to late arrivals and small turnaround times. Unless you want trains to be delayed additionally to comply with 15 minutes.
The problem is, Euston isn't like any of those stations, its platforms are hidden from view, grouped into single chokepoints points of entry and exit that lead to a comparatively tiny concourse only at one end of the station.
It was designed for a world of rail travel vastly different to the one it currently resides in
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's considerably less of an issue than many older stations like Manchester Piccadilly. The problems are caused almost entirely by the stupid method of operation.
Piccadilly has level access, good visibility and a bridge(complete with a waiting concourse area for 13-14) at the other end.
It also had a significant rebuild in 2000 to remove its former tiny Euston-like main concourse to enable that.
New Street was possibly another, although at least there it also had a footbridge, a subway and the concourse was double sided. And it's also been totally rebuilt.
Euston doesn't have any other means of traversing platforms, and it's not been rebuilt
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Obviously we can only sensibly compare with large terminal stations, usually in London, where entire trainloads (commonly 500 or more passengers, many of them only occasional users, with luggage, etc.) have to be both unloaded and boarded.
At busy through stations, such as Birmingham New Street and Manchester Piccadilly P13&14, there are obvious steps to encourage passengers for 'subsequent' trains to remain at a mezzanine level/lounge/zone until shortly before their train.
Whether passengers really regard New Street and P13&14 as 'fine' (especially to wait on a platform for an extended period) is a moot point but probably off thread.
I must be very unlucky at Euston. To be quite clear, I do only use it occasionally these days but on the majority of occasions when I'm there there seems to any or all of 'revised timetable' (typically only two rather than three trains per hour to Manchester), delayed boarding ('expected at...' and often steadily 'retreating'), platform change (RTT in red) or going from 'delayed' to 'cancelled' at the last minute. Departure is often late. Not infrequently I'll give up and go along to St Pancras. (My Hope Valley abode can be accessed from either end.)
Clearly I'm not talking about local trains to Hatch End or Hemel Hempstead.
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Do the people who arrive really early, or just miss a train and have 59 minutes to wait, wait on the platform if they know which one? If I arrive early I go for a coffee at the station or nearby.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Personally I very much doubt it but there seem to be a large number on these Forums who are obsessed with waiting around on cheerless, gloomy platforms, hungry, thirsty and with their legs crossed for indefinite periods rather than reduce themselves to paying 'rip-off' prices for 'fancy' drinks and snacks now that they no longer have the opportunity to purchase 'confectionary news and tobacco' from Wyman's or Finlay's or obtain a china cup of stewed, lukewarm tea from an urn already made up with sterilized milk in some dingy, smoke-logged Refreshment Room with a stained wooden floor like in British Railways days.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
When I get to Euston (I typically have about 30m spare) I always try to go wait at the top of the platform and watch (and video) some of the trains coming in and out.
Top of P2/P3 is great for that.
D6130
Established Member
When I arrive early I go for a pint in the Euston Tap!
It isn't unreasonable to delay trains to allow passengers to actually catch them. 15 minutes seems excessive, but they should be on the board in sufficient time for someone to walk at a slow pace from the far side of the station to the front of the train.
Or alternatively, consider the train as cancelled for TOC statistics and delay repay (whilst of course still allowing any passengers who make it there to travel)
Hmm... I came across a TfL standard giving 3 km/hr as the speed of a 'slow' walker ('medium' was 4, 'fast' 5), which translates to 50metres per minute, or perhaps 5 minutes for the length of an 11 coach Pendolino, perhaps needing to double that for coming from the far side of the station. So 15 minutes doesn't seem excessive to me. Especially if you are going to tell people not to rush.
And - if I had a specific train to catch - it is the time I would want to allow from arrival at Euston to avoid thinking 'I'm cutting it fine'.
Purple Train
Established Member
An 11-coach Pendolino is 265 metres, so, yes, 5 minutes for that length is a good estimate - but one would hope that, at a station will such an allergy to passengers on the platform as Euston, they would be told to board an intermediate coach and walk up before the train closed doors and left. TfL's estimate may also be on the conservative side as 5km/h is 3mph, which, according to Goggle Maps, is average walking pace.
The minimum connection time is 15 minutes which will include time for getting off of your inbound service and to the concourse. So 7.5 minutes for getting from the concourse to your train would be appropriate.
And yes, I am in favour of trains being delayed when platforms have been announced late. It'll provide an incentive to improve things so that delays don't happen. After all, we've had tales of trains being ready but no one upstairs has announced them, that would change if management had some pressure on them. Then there's the LNW services which don't need any prep but still get suppressed - if they need it for crowd control reasons then it should be lifted as soon as the last inbound passenger has cleared the ramp.
CarrotPie
Member
IIRC the average walking speed is 4km/h. Googoe Maps likes to think you can walk/cycle a lot faster than in reality.
does the Euston "experience" all come down to the sociology that the passenger comes way down the list of things to do, in despatching a train... for the sake of an on time departure "let the passenger" rush if they get on fair enough if they don't wait for the next crush... we've got targets to meet.
Deafdoggie
Established Member
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Passengers don't even feature in the minds of those that run the railway. The passenger experience will not have entered anyone's head.
The only sensible solution for Avanti trains is to wait for inbound train to arrive and tip out, cleaners on, lock doors, then announce platform. Once cleaners are done, unlock doors. That way passengers can make their way to the platform when they're ready and not be forced to run, it would stop crowds all heading there at the same time and would generally be much safer. But the railways aren't interested in improving safety till there has been an accident and they "can learn from It" sadly, someone will have to be crushed before common sense prevails.
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PyrahnaRanger
Member
I can certainly see how people would be given that impression - both from the behaviour exhibited on the ground, and from some of the comments in these forums occasionally (sorry!)
Perhaps there’s a thread in discussing if the “railway”, like other large organisations, has become more about the targets and KPIs that are set than actually serving passengers, I.e. paying customers!
I have seen his a euston and is a issue that hasnt improved
However a similar situation exists at local stations where they announce a change in the platform about one minute before the train arrives. Sometimes you need to cross a footbridge to get to the new platform. I have no idea how elderly and infirm are meant to get from one end of a lengthy platform to another but noone seems to care
However a similar situation exists at local stations where they announce a change in the platform about one minute before the train arrives. Sometimes you need to cross a footbridge to get to the new platform. I have no idea how elderly and infirm are meant to get from one end of a lengthy platform to another but noone seems to care
Euston platforms are more than adequate to handle waiting passengers. The whole point is to avoid the crowds hitting the ramp and revenue block at the same time which is what causes the major issues.
Advertising the platforms 5 minutes after the train has arrived and tipped out, with plenty of time before departure, will fix that. It’ll take a bit of Avanti hand wringing over revenue and when the doors get unlocked, but it’s not rocket science.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I cut things fairly fine so couldn't confirm for absolute certain, but it looks like this ridiculous practice was in use at Milton Keynes Central this morning (which is acting as a temporary northbound terminus). If I did indeed see that correctly, someone wants the sack for causing unnecessary danger by causing people to rush on stairs. Passenger numbers are tiny so there is absolutely no need whatsoever. Perhaps the platform level businesses should complain as it will be affecting their trade?
Dr Hoo
Established Member
So, to be quite clear that I have understood your proposal (and other nuances suggested by other posters), let us consider a straightforward example. On Easter Tuesday 2nd April the 1030 to Glasgow is booked to depart from Platform 1. It is formed off the 0735 ex Manchester, due 0941. Let's assume that it arrives punctually and has tipped out and platform cleared by 0950. The cleaners are by then 'locked on' by the arriving Train Manager.
Avanti (agency?) revenue protection staff attend the 'closed' (i.e. normal operational position) barrier gates at 0950 ready to assist passengers for the Glasgow departure and remain through to 1030. The Glasgow train is shown as ready and open for boarding on all indicators, apps, announcements from 0950. Passengers then start to steadily trickle down to enjoy the 'more than adequate' comforts of Platform 1 until train preparation, reservations display and so on are complete and the doors are released by the Train Manager.
Can anyone confirm at what time the Train Manager would normally be booked to have the Glasgow train ready?
trainophile
Established Member
I find Milton Keynes station scary, the speed the non-stoppers pass through within a couple of yards (or metres if you prefer lol) of the platforms. Only been there twice, but I seem to remember there's some sort of wire fencing preventing people getting too close, but the draught from the passing trains is enough to literally put the wind up people waiting there!
Purple Train
Established Member
No, there's no fence (or at least there wasn't when I was last there!) - the fast line platforms are in constant use. It is quite unnerving being on platform 6 with a train passing at 125mph, yes!
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