Charged Excess Fare Crewe-Euston by West Midlands Trains (LNR route)

Yesterday I was travelling back from Crewe to Euston on the return portion of a Euston-Crewe LNWR/WMR-only £41.80 super-offpeak return ticket. I got on the 19:13 from Crewe, but was charged an excess fare (not a huge amount - £4.90) by the conductor to upgrade my ticket to an off-peak on the basis that my ticket wasn't valid. When I queried why I was being charged, the conductor stated that super-offpeaks were not valid for departure between 16:30 and 19:30?

Is that correct? It seems to directly contradict the information on https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=CRE&expert=on&flow=2&multi=0&fare=4&rte=42&tkt=OPR - which states that the super-offpeak return is code LF, and the conditions are:

BrFares said:

Outward Travel & Return Travel

(snip)

Not valid for travel on services timed to depart the origin station on the ticket after 15:59 and before 19:01 in either direction.

Click to expand...

That would indicate that my ticket would have been valid on that train (which is why I chose it)

You've been incorrectly excessed. £41.80 is the correct fare for that service according to Train Split.

Your ticket was definitely valid for travel on the 1913 train - I'd suggest an email to LNWR customer relations to ask for a refund.

sonic2009 said:

Your ticket was definitely valid for travel on the 1913 train - I'd suggest an email to LNWR customer relations to ask for a refund.

Click to expand...

And for compensation for being treated like a common criminal by the guard for their mistake. As who knows how many other passengers that rogue guard incorrectly charged excess fares to, nice little earner for their commission pot.

But sadly unlike other industries the rail industry doesn't care about passengers and will make up some excuse into why the guard was correct and you were wrong but on this time as a goodwill gesture they will refund you the money which will arrive in 6 weeks time in the form of a cheque.

sonic2009 said:

Your ticket was definitely valid for travel on the 1913 train - I'd suggest an email to LNWR customer relations to ask for a refund.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Just filled in the online form to request a refund

Kite159 said:

And for compensation for being treated like a common criminal by the guard for their mistake. As who knows how many other passengers that rogue guard incorrectly charged excess fares to, nice little earner for their commission pot.

Click to expand...

Think that's going a little far. I wasn't treated like a common criminal - it was a polite conversation with the guard. No reason not to assume it wasn't a case of, the guard being genuinely mistaken about the regulations. Having said that you're right that other passengers may be charged and most passengers would not make the effort/know how to subsequently check/raise a complaint.

In fact I would say that, if my ticket had not been valid, then it's actually a very enlightened, fair, policy of LNWR to only charge half the difference between a super-offpeak and an offpeak return. The problem was simply that the rules were applied on the wrong train.

DynamicSpirit said:

Thanks. Just filled in the online form to request a refund



Think that's going a little far. I wasn't treated like a common criminal - it was a polite conversation with the guard. No reason not to assume it wasn't a case of, the guard being genuinely mistaken about the regulations. Having said that you're right that other passengers may be charged and most passengers would not make the effort/know how to subsequently check/raise a complaint.

In fact I would say that, if my ticket had not been valid, then it's actually a very enlightened, fair, policy of LNWR to only charge half the difference between a super-offpeak and an offpeak return. The problem was simply that the rules were applied on the wrong train.

Click to expand...

So he's even made a mess of the X/S for that change it needs to be the full difference

I really don't know where the guard got 16:30-19:30 from - I can't think of any restriction code that would apply to a ticket valid on WMT services which follows those times. Perhaps a slip of the mind, but they should have checked the restriction code rather than assuming.

Of course I'm sure it wasn't a malicious decision to charge you, but it's disappointing that at most you'll get back the amount you were overcharged by - whereas if the boot had been on the other foot and you had boarded without a valid ticket, you could have been issued with a Penalty Fare or worse.

DynamicSpirit said:

In fact I would say that, if my ticket had not been valid, then it's actually a very enlightened, fair, policy of LNWR to only charge half the difference between a super-offpeak and an offpeak return. The problem was simply that the rules were applied on the wrong train.

Click to expand...

It's merely the position under the NRCoT - which says that if you travel at a restricted time on a (Super) Off-Peak ticket, or on an invalid route on a route restricted ticket, you'll be charged the difference to the cheapest valid walk-up fare.

So neither the guard nor WMT corporately were being generous in that sense (even if you had been in the wrong). It could be argued that it's a generous industry policy - although I'd argue this is only the case in comparison with the severe consequences that can apply in other, similar circumstances (such as getting on the wrong company with a TOC-restricted ticket).

Watershed said:

It's merely the position under the NRCoT - which says that if you travel at a restricted time on a (Super) Off-Peak ticket, or on an invalid route on a route restricted ticket, you'll be charged the difference to the cheapest valid walk-up fare.

Click to expand...

Except that the position under NRCoT is that you pay the full difference in fares, not the half that the OP was charged, for travelling at a restricted time.

Confirmed the super-offpeak is valid. I've managed to get a screenshot of LNWR's own website offering me a super-offpeak ticket for travel on the 19:13 train - albeit for tomorrow rather than yesterday, since you can't buy tickets for past dates

Haywain said:

Except that the position under NRCoT is that you pay the full difference in fares, not the half that the OP was charged, for travelling at a restricted time.

Click to expand...

Not only that, but if it's done correctly on a TIS, the full difference will be charged automatically.

To do otherwise would most likely involve selecting a "Change of Route" Excess - which is half the difference when excessing one leg of a Return.

I use these tickets between Euston and Derby, and I think a few years ago, the restriction was 1630-1930 but at some point it moved to 1600- 1900

richardderby said:

I use these tickets between Euston and Derby, and I think a few years ago, the restriction was 1630-1930 but at some point it moved to 1600- 1900

Click to expand...

Maybe it's been that long since the guard did revenue* maybe they still had the impression super off-peak restrictions ended at 19:30.

(*the number of times I've done London <-> Crewe on LNR where the guard has simply hidden away in the middle cab, in some cases locking out the inter-unit gangway doors after Atherstone heading south to prevent getting disturbed by those pesky passengers)

As a minimum, WMT need to:

• refund the monies incorrectly charged
• apologise and compensate for the inconvenience and the time taken to bring the matter to their attention and resolve it
• provide assurances that lessons have been learnt and that incorrect overcharging won't occur again

I've been informed by an informed source that WMT are regularly misleading and overcharging people and that there is a possibility of legal action being taken against them.

As this is a seriouis matter and this is just one example of what appears to be systematic overcharging, WMT are opening themselves up to potentially being on the recieving end of a class action lawsuit if they continue their behaviour. I've put @DynamicSpirit in contact with a solicitor who may be able to assist. I can't say any more at this stage.

I'll leave this thread locked for the time being but @DynamicSpirit please let us know (by reporting this post) when there is an update and we will reopen the thread at that time.