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BBC News - Train drivers overwhelmingly middle-aged white men

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Horizon22

Horizon22

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ComUtoR said:
Sounds like a threat. Can you confirm what you mean by this ? All views provided are my own. I have never declared my TOC and directly reported any post that highlights it.
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A threat?! Not sure how - I was more just saying that any employee has personal opinions, but potentially declaring those in the workplace or in a position where they may be percieved as being the opinion of the company might put you at odd with the company's policies. This goes for everyone, I wasn't singling you out specifically, but you provided an example.
ComUtoR said:
Source please.
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nbs.net

How Diversity Increases Productivity - Network for Business Sustainability (NBS)

Racial diversity in upper and lower management leads to better strategy and implementation — and greater productivity
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ComUtoR said:
Again source please.

Are 'White Males' incapable of critical thinking ? Should diversity be enforced ? Do you know why some candidates apply and others don't ? Do you know why employer's target specific demographics and do you support it ?
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Did I say that? If train drivers were predominantly black females, that would be equally bad!

I explained upthread that train driving has historically (and still does to a lesser degree today) appeal to males more than females.

You appear to be taking this very personally and defensively, and I am not sure why.
 
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dk1

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Flange Squeal said:
Sounds like some of the requirements vary from TOC to TOC, for example the separate male/female facilities, as we certainly have some active PNB points (not obscure rarely used ones either) with just a single unisex toilet.
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I reckon I’ve got to go back at least 15 years if not more to have anything like that and then it was only in one of the smaller huts at the depot.
 
ComUtoR

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Horizon22 said:
You appear to be taking this very personally and defensively, and I am not sure why.
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Ad hominem, not sure that's fair.

Hopefully I've provided some much needed debate. Is that not allowed ?
 
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Geezertronic said:
Must be a slow news day
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Lots of the stories on the BBC local news pages are written summaries of what's on the BBC local TV news bulletin that evening.

Maybe someone in the south can watch tonight to see if this features?

An odd aspect of this is the story being posted on the Hampshire page.
 
ComUtoR

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Magdalia said:
Lots of the stories on the BBC local news pages are written summaries of what's on the BBC local TV news bulletin that evening.
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Not sure how I would get the local BBC website up but my main BBC homepage does not feature this story or any sub headline. The only railway story is Pete Waterman's record breaking model railway at 999.9m !
 
Turtle

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12LDA28C said:
I look forward to reading the BBC News article tomorrow bemoaning the fact that 86% of midwives are white women. I'm sure that's coming, right?
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BBC( Hampshire & IOW) is just quoting an
Russel said:
If any media organization was to publish an article like this, it had to be the BBC!
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BBC(Hampshire & IoW) is just quoting a
gabrielhj07 said:
Must be a slow news day at Broadcasting House.
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BBC(Hampshire & IoW) is just quoting a NSAR article largely dealing with Southern which, of course, covers part of Hampshire. It's news for the general population and not really aimed at a specialist website like this.
 
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ComUtoR said:
Can you provide any evidence that the protected characteristics are hierarchical ? What if I was Black and Jewish ?
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You appear to have snipped what I said which was not that the law states that, but that's how most people will deal with it as it's the only logical and fair way to resolve a liberal-paradox type conflict.

ComUtoR said:
What if I was a female in a specific religion that has the threat of an honour killing because I don't marry someone or 'choose' to live my life in a certain way. Is that still 'Choice' ?
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Murder, or conspiracy thereto, are criminal offences, and as such are not tolerated, whether for religious reasons or otherwise.
 
ComUtoR

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Bletchleyite said:
You appear to have snipped what I said which was not that the law states that, but that's how most people will deal with it as it's the only logical and fair way to resolve a liberal-paradox type conflict.
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In a liberal paradox. Society decides and in fact, respects the choice of the individual. Escaping the Liberal Paradox comes down to : rejecting the universal domain assumption, the Pareto principle, or the minimal liberalism principle.

renegademaster said:
you'd be breaching the equality act trying to "fix" that though
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No you aren't
 
185143

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richa2002 said:
Which is disgraceful in itself and blatant sexism, racism and whatever ism you want to attach to sexuality. The fact this kind of thing is said these days without as much of a blink of the eye is bonkers.
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Exactly.

Surely that's blatant racism/sexism/homophobia against the straight white male!

The best candidate for the job at interview, safety critical medical and assessment is the best candidate for the job. Regardless of what they identify as or who they sleep with.

If person A is a bisexual 20 year old trans woman who scored 80% on the assessment, why should she get the job ahead of person B who is a straight 50 year old cisgenger straight man? The best candidate for the job, by the industry's own tests, is the best candidate for the job.

For the record, I am FULLY in support of LGBT and minorities working in any role they choose. I have worked with a fair few LGBT (of all letters) people and my sole concern is "can they do the job?" As it would be for non LGBT people. But if they, like anyone else, aren't the best for the job, why should they get it just to make the TOC "look good"?
 
ComUtoR

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Bletchleyite said:
Murder, or conspiracy thereto, are criminal offences, and as such are not tolerated, whether for religious reasons or otherwise.
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But you still haven't addressed whether that is a perceived choice or not. If my religion was quite strict and had rather severe punishments. I would feel that I had 'no choice' but to comply with my religious dogma. There are those that hide their sexuality because some religions are less than tolerant of it.
 
Horizon22

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185143 said:
The best candidate for the job at interview, safety critical medical and assessment is the best candidate for the job. Regardless of what they identify as or who they sleep with.
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Of course - but the primary issue is not this, but has been getting people from more diverse backgrounds applying in the first place.
 
ComUtoR

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185143 said:
Surely that's blatant racism/sexism/homophobia against the straight white male!
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Nope, its totally allowed.

185143 said:
or who they sleep with.
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Pretty sure I'd give my *Girlfriend a job over someone else. Not sure what 'ISM' that is.






*maybe not; she'd be a nightmare

Horizon22 said:
Of course - but the primary issue is not this, but has been getting people from more diverse backgrounds applying in the first place.
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Many thanks for recognising that this issue is far more wide reaching and requires deeper understanding. I was impressed that you understood the nuance of the topic and recognised that there may be specific societal influences that prevent certain cultures from applying in the first place. I fully appreciate that having the constant barrage of 'White Culture' and the fear that you may not be accepted into a role because it is portrayed to be fundamentally of a certain culture so would specifically prevent certain demographics from applying made it into your consciousness. I fully appreciate your opinion and admire your ability to speak out in favour of diversity without fear or repercussion.
 
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185143

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Horizon22 said:
Of course - but the primary issue is not this, but has been getting people from more diverse backgrounds applying in the first place.
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Fair. Making the railway more appealing to minority applicants is absolutely a good thing.
 
Horizon22

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185143 said:
Fair. Making the railway more appealing to minority applicants is absolutely a good thing.
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Indeed. Unfortunately people conflate the two issues and therefore think people being hired is solely because they are are of different genders/sexual orientations/race. Often it is just that a wider section of society is applying for roles and therefore people are being hired who may have never even considered applying in the first place and are actually excellent candidates. And if the best candidate is a straight, white, middle-aged male then great they get the job. Often the last stage is an interview and it is almost impossible to avoid at least some level of bias (in any direction) at that stage. That is not to say some companies won't make a show of it (i.e social media posts about an "all female trainee driver cohort") which has its drawbacks too.

That comes down to a range of different methods to making "the railway" an attractive place to have a career. As I said earlier, it's not like white male drivers are being forced out, but over time as they retire (the usual way a train driver leaves the grade) and a slightly more diverse array of drivers come in, the overall average age and ethnicity will change.
 
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bramling said:
This is probably the most salient point here. The BBC are a joke. I can’t remember the last time I actually watched anything they broadcast, not even the news.
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I quite agree - cancelling my licence fee was one of the best decisions I ever made.
Unfortunately, the BBC is fully bought into the identity politics agenda which values your ‘identity’ and characteristics over everything else. Of course nobody should be active discouraged from applying for roles in any industry, but ultimately all that matters is your ability to do the job. Hiring people to tick boxes is counterproductive for the organisation and incredibly patronising for the individual.
 
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A few decades ago London Underground decided to try to recruit more female drivers, so they advertised in Cosmopolitan, the main result of which was an increase in the number of men trying to become tube drivers because their girlfriend suggested it.
 
ComUtoR

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HullRailMan said:
Hiring people to tick boxes is counterproductive for the organisation
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Are people hired to tick boxes or are they hired because the talent pool just got increased and was more competitive that being of a certain ethnicity was no longer advantageous ?


HullRailMan said:
and incredibly patronising for the individual.
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Doubtful. Pretty sure they would be happy to get the job and break that glass ceiling
 
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ComUtoR said:
Wheelchair user's are still entitled to an interview
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Not for a train driving job surely? That would be pointless, and a waste of everyone's time.

Horizon22 said:
diversity of individuals in a workforce has been proven to lead to added productivity whereas a more generic and less diverse workplace leads to issues of group-think and more resistant to change.
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Greater diversity, in terms of gender at least, definitely improved, IMHO, the working atmosphere in my office; When I started there was one female there, she later moved on and for some years we were male-only; Which came in handy one Saturday when the Gents toilets were being worked on, we simply used the Ladies, as we were the only people in the building. By the time I retired we had several women in various roles, and our boss for a time was female too. Apart from other benefits, the amount of swearing in the office was reduced, although not by as much as one might expect.....
 
ComUtoR

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Falcon1200 said:
Not for a train driving job surely? That would be pointless, and a waste of everyone's time.
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There are many people who specifically target employers to test them to see if they satisfy diversity and inclusivity targets. That aside, various methods have been introduced to prevent discrimination; including 'Blind' Interviews. Protected characteristics are removed and everyone can apply. Reasonable adjustments are made for every candidate (which are declared beforehand). If you pass, you move to the next stage. Just because you would no doubt fail the medical doesn't mean that you are excluded from the process.

Falcon1200 said:
Which came in handy one Saturday when the Gents toilets were being worked on, we simply used the Ladies
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When I first started driving. We didn't even have a ladies toilet.
 
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Male vs female is one thing. However, given that 82% of the England & Wales population are white, the preponderance of that ethnic group should not be a news story,
 
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HullRailMan said:
Hiring people to tick boxes is counterproductive for the organisation and incredibly patronising for the individual.
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Agree. If I had moved to (lets say?) India, at some point in my career (as a planner), yes, I would likely have looked for a railway job, natural instinct. BUT, if I found later that I had been appointed for a 'planning' job over an Indian National (possibly with far greater local knowledge than I), purely because having a 'white' skin I was deemed to be filling some 'diversity' driven agenda, I would find that extremely patronising and offensive, and potentially embarrassing having to work with others who may have been colleagues of the person I had usurped. As a newbie I would expect to start at the bottom (even with prior experience in my home country) and work my way up. May be my values are outdated in these times? But I make no apology for that.
 
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Mick Whelan has said he wants ASLEF to have less white men, I don’t think it’s a bad thing.
 
ComUtoR

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TUC said:
Male vs female is one thing. However, given that 82% of the England & Wales population are white, the preponderance of that ethnic group should not be a news story,
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I agree. The other 18% don't count. Only Females should be supported.
 
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ComUtoR said:
Are people hired to tick boxes or are they hired because the talent pool just got increased and was more competitive that being of a certain ethnicity was no longer advantageous ?




Doubtful. Pretty sure they would be happy to get the job and break that glass ceiling
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Tick box hiring is incredibly patronising. My wife, who is blind, has said on multiple occasions 'I want to get a job because it was agreed I was the best candidate, not to make up a quota'.
 
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