I realise that just about every bus I've been on has had a publicly displayed notice saying what the max nos. of seated and standing passengers are. I'm on this Stagecoach South bus and I cannot see one. Was it mandatory and is it still so now?
Don't the answer to that one, going slightly off on a tangent, I regularly travel on Stagecoach E200s and looking at the seated/standing/wheelchair capacity combinations, I think that the maximum standing numbers allowed would be physically impossible to exceed on an E200.I realise that just about every bus I've been on has had a publicly displayed notice saying what the max nos. of seated and standing passengers are. I'm on this Stagecoach South bus and I cannot see one. Was it mandatory and is it still so now?
Yes, there is a legal weight you treat each person as whether they are 50kg or 150kg. The given weight includes a bag for each passenger at an assumed weight too. Going back it used to be the case that 3 children only counted as 2 people, but I can’t find reference to that in current rules.Aren't the maximum capacities worked on a purely weight calculation basis, not physical space?
Quite simply, you can’t police it on a train and so it would have zero value. Trains are also a lot heavier duty than a bus, and they generally won’t exert the same potentially sudden forces on passengers as a road vehicle might do; for example when cornering or if it is necessary to brake sharply.It always surprises me that buses quite rightly have a maximum capacity due to weight issues, but trains have no limits at all!
Trains are designed to carry 7 passengers per m² of standing space, plus those seated, which is about as many as can physically fit so the 'limit' is self-enforcing.It always surprises me that buses quite rightly have a maximum capacity due to weight issues, but trains have no limits at all!
On an occasion when we were sardine packed at Kings Cross after several cancellations the driver announced we wouldn't be going anywhere unless some people got off as the train was overloaded.Trains are designed to carry 7 passengers per m² of standing space, plus those seated, which is about as many as can physically fit so the 'limit' is self-enforcing.
In the current issue of Modern Railways, Ian Walmsley mentions that being an issue when removing seats from 455s to create more standing space - the loads on the bodyshell/bogies/axleboxes had to be recalculated and were right on the design limits.
Yes, it has been mandatory since the passing of the Road Traffic Act 1930. It’s also mandatory to display the unladen weight on the outside, along with the address of the vehicle’s operator (known as the legal address).I realise that just about every bus I've been on has had a publicly displayed notice saying what the max nos. of seated and standing passengers are. I'm on this Stagecoach South bus and I cannot see one. Was it mandatory and is it still so now?
Yes, there is a legal weight you treat each person as whether they are 50kg or 150kg. The given weight includes a bag for each passenger at an assumed weight too. Going back it used to be the case that 3 children only counted as 2 people, but I can’t find reference to that in current rules.
You’ll find small e200mmcs have a ridiculous standing capacity due to having the same chassis and max gross weight as their bigger versions.
Which given it is based entirely on weight makes absolute sense (although I think at one point a wheelchair user counted as 2 or 3 people for the calculation).Slight tangent, I rode on a Wright Pulsar 2 (63-plate, I think) of Arriva's on the 16 and noticed that the maximum total capacity was the same (77) whether more or fewer people were standing or sitting.
Do you know what that weight is?
(3) For the purposes of this Regulation 63.5 kilograms shall be deemed to represent the weight of one person.
My understanding is that on trains they simply assume it will be crush-loaded and design accordingly.It always surprises me that buses quite rightly have a maximum capacity due to weight issues, but trains have no limits at all!
The relationship between weight and number of passengers is twofold: firstly the gross weight (including passengers) is limited by law, and secondly the tilt test must be passed with weights to represent passengers strapped to seats (upstairs only in the case of a double decker).
Idle thought popped into my head: The location of the capacity notice is really for the benefit of the driver, since on a one person operated service they are in control of boarding passengers, and thus able to deny boarding to prevent overloading.They are in a variety of positions - you may find it is tucked away above the driver's head, only visible if you duck below assault screen fittings. Above the door is another common placement nowadays.
Surely the driver is the one who is in ultimate charge, so they're the one who'd carry the can if the vehicle is overloaded. The conductor would also be aware if passenger loadings were getting towards the legal limit - I'd like to think that it'd be a team effort in such a case.Idle thought popped into my head: The location of the capacity notice is really for the benefit of the driver, since on a one person operated service they are in control of boarding passengers, and thus able to deny boarding to prevent overloading.
What is the situation for a conductor operated service - Does the driver have a defence against a charge of overloading where they are not in control of boarding?
With rear entry buses the driver would have had no way of knowing (accurately) how many were on board. Don’t know whether it was purely an Edinburgh thing but in my younger days, the standing capacity limit (pretty rigorously enforced at times) was 8 - well below physical capacity.Surely the driver is the one who is in ultimate charge, so they're the one who'd carry the can if the vehicle is overloaded. The conductor would also be aware if passenger loadings were getting towards the legal limit - I'd like to think that it'd be a team effort in such a case.
Rear entry buses aren't a thing these days, though!With rear entry buses the driver would have had no way of knowing (accurately) how many were on board. Don’t know whether it was purely an Edinburgh thing but in my younger days, the standing capacity limit (pretty rigorously enforced at times) was 8 - well below physical capacity.
Neither - AFAIK - are conductor operated buses.Rear entry buses aren't a thing these days, though!
When I started in the Industry, I recall talking to a Conductor who, prior to transfer had been working in Luton in the late 60s. Whilst working the last bus (rear entrance vehicle) to Stopsley he had taken all the waiting passengers with a standing load without actually counting. On climbing Crawley Green Road the bus conked out and a following police car stopped. An officer then counted the passengers off and the Conductor was duly prosecuted, and fined, for allowing an overloaded vehicle. No action against the driver presumably as he was not in control of the loading.Surely the driver is the one who is in ultimate charge, so they're the one who'd carry the can if the vehicle is overloaded. The conductor would also be aware if passenger loadings were getting towards the legal limit - I'd like to think that it'd be a team effort in such a case.
The 1936 Conduct of Drivers Conductors and Passengers Regulations (since superceded) defined the roles and responsibilities, in those days of crew operated buses. Loading would have been the responsibility of the Conductor.Surely the driver is the one who is in ultimate charge, so they're the one who'd carry the can if the vehicle is overloaded. The conductor would also be aware if passenger loadings were getting towards the legal limit - I'd like to think that it'd be a team effort in such a case.