Chiltern October Timetable

As has been posted elsewhere, the current version of the proposed timetable once the route to Oxford Parkway opens has been posted on the Chiltern site.

Some of the key details are as follows:

• 0724SX from Oxford Parkway (due Marylebone at 0820) and 1818 return (due Oxford Parkway 1919) to be formed of one of the "Silver" sets and run non-stop between Haddenham & Thame Parkway and Marylebone.
• Off-Peak Weekday Met departures revert to xx27 and xx57 from Marylebone, with the xx57 departures running through to Aylesbury Vale Parkway. Southbound they're xx20 and xx50 from Aylesbury (xx15 from Aylesbury Vale Parkway).
• Most through trains to Stratford-upon-Avon withdrawn, reducing it to a mostly two hourly shuttle from Leamington Spa. Through trains as follows:
  • Mondays to Fridays : 0618, 1824 and 2043 from Marylebone; 0733, 1736 and 2139 from Stratford
  • Saturdays : NONE from Marylebone; 0756 from Stratford
  • Sundays : 0943 from Marylebone; 0938 and 2038 from Stratford
• Complete recast of the "Joint Line" off-peak timetable. Typical weekday hour from Marylebone:
  • xx 05 - Haddenham, Bicester Village, Oxford Parkway
  • xx 10 - Fast Birmingham (High Wycombe, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick Parkway, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street)
  • xx 13 - Aylesbury via High Wycombe (Wembley Stadium, Denham, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield, then all stations)
  • xx 16 - Wembley Stadium, South Ruislip, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe
  • xx 35 - High Wycombe, Bicester Village, Oxford Parkway
  • xx 40 - Semi-Fast Birmingham (Bicester North, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Dorridge, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street, Birmingham Snow Hill)
  • xx 43 - Banbury (Fast to Gerrards Cross, then all stations except Saunderton). Stops at Kings Sutton every 2 hours.
  • xx 46 - Gerrards Cross (All stations except Sudbury & Harrow Road and South Ruislip)

Biggest losers in the recast are people travelling to and from Stratford, and those travelling from Bicester North into London, with a wait of up to 45 minutes if they miss a train.

Assuming no changes to the Super Off-Peak restrictions, people who'd get the 0910 direct to Stratford now (arriving 1116) will have to get the 1010 and change at Leamington Spa, arriving into Stratford at 1203.

CyrusWuff said:

As has been posted elsewhere, the current version of the proposed timetable once the route to Oxford Parkway opens has been posted on the Chiltern site.

Some of the key details are as follows:

• 0724SX from Oxford Parkway (due Marylebone at 0820) and 1818 return (due Oxford Parkway 1919) to be formed of one of the "Silver" sets and run non-stop between Haddenham & Thame Parkway and Marylebone.
• Off-Peak Weekday Met departures revert to xx27 and xx57 from Marylebone, with the xx57 departures running through to Aylesbury Vale Parkway. Southbound they're xx20 and xx50 from Aylesbury (xx15 from Aylesbury Vale Parkway).
• Most through trains to Stratford-upon-Avon withdrawn, reducing it to a mostly two hourly shuttle from Leamington Spa. Through trains as follows:
  • Mondays to Fridays : 0618, 1824 and 2043 from Marylebone; 0733, 1736 and 2139 from Stratford
  • Saturdays : NONE from Marylebone; 0756 from Stratford
  • Sundays : 0943 from Marylebone; 0938 and 2038 from Stratford
• Complete recast of the "Joint Line" off-peak timetable. Typical weekday hour from Marylebone:
  • xx 05 - Haddenham, Bicester Village, Oxford Parkway
  • xx 10 - Fast Birmingham (High Wycombe, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick Parkway, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street)
  • xx 13 - Aylesbury via High Wycombe (Wembley Stadium, Denham, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield, then all stations)
  • xx 16 - Wembley Stadium, South Ruislip, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe
  • xx 35 - High Wycombe, Bicester Village, Oxford Parkway
  • xx 40 - Semi-Fast Birmingham (Bicester North, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Dorridge, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street, Birmingham Snow Hill)
  • xx 43 - Banbury (Fast to Gerrards Cross, then all stations except Saunderton). Stops at Kings Sutton every 2 hours.
  • xx 46 - Gerrards Cross (All stations except Sudbury & Harrow Road and South Ruislip)

Biggest losers in the recast are people travelling to and from Stratford, and those travelling from Bicester North into London, with a wait of up to 45 minutes if they miss a train.

Assuming no changes to the Super Off-Peak restrictions, people who'd get the 0910 direct to Stratford now (arriving 1116) will have to get the 1010 and change at Leamington Spa, arriving into Stratford at 1203.

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But are Stratford passengers "losing out"?

OK they are losing the direct trains during the day, but instead of a train every 3 hours, there will be a train with a connection at Leamington every 2 hours, which means one extra connection between London and Stratford in either direction.

Surely that's a better result standing back from it?

I don't see that having to change trains at Leamington is that big an issue. For example the majority of train journeys between Dublin and Killarney in Ireland, which is one the biggest tourist destinations in Ireland, require passengers to change trains at Mallow. The world hasn't ended since this was introduced several years ago, and Killarney benefitted from an increase in frequency as a result and more tourists.

I would also imagine that most tourists wouldn't be as price sensitive to worry about paying a different fare with the change in train times. In fact I'd imagine that the earlier arrival of 10:14 off an 08:10 connection from Marylebone will prove more attractive.

I expect this has been asked but will tickets be valid either Bicester station, do we think? If you live within walking distance of them, it would be usefully flexible.

I suppose the same thought arises about Oxford?

Seems to be following the Slow Wobbly Trains notion of getting there at an increasingly slow rate.

HowardGWR said:

I expect this has been asked but will tickets be valid either Bicester station, do we think? If you live within walking distance of them, it would be usefully flexible.

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Officially I suspect the answer is "No", as there isn't a "Bicester Stations" group. In practice, I would imagine Chiltern staff "on the ground" will treat them as if they were, but I can't see FGW staff accepting Bicester North tickets via Oxford.

The 16:24 off Marylebone is a bit odd - a 2 car 168 (so a 170 ?) to Birmingham SH but first stop Denham?? Though there is a 1621 semi fast also to BSW ahead of it and it gets overtaken en route between Haddenham and Bicester.

CyrusWuff said:

Officially I suspect the answer is "No", as there isn't a "Bicester Stations" group. In practice, I would imagine Chiltern staff "on the ground" will treat them as if they were, but I can't see FGW staff accepting Bicester North tickets via Oxford.

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On the Fujitsu star system there is a Bicester stations option but just like Oxford parkway there is no fares set for them yet. So maybe we will see for tickets in the London direction valid to both Bicester village and Bicester North.

sammyg901 said:

The 16:24 off Marylebone is a bit odd - a 2 car 168 (so a 170 ?) to Birmingham SH but first stop Denham?? Though there is a 1621 semi fast also to BSW ahead of it and it gets overtaken en route between Haddenham and Bicester.

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Gets overtaken at Bicester North by the looks of it, the 1624 must go into the up platform.

berneyarms said:

But are Stratford passengers "losing out"?

OK they are losing the direct trains during the day, but instead of a train every 3 hours, there will be a train with a connection at Leamington every 2 hours, which means one extra connection between London and Stratford in either direction.

Surely that's a better result standing back from it?

I don't see that having to change trains at Leamington is that big an issue. For example the majority of train journeys between Dublin and Killarney in Ireland, which is one the biggest tourist destinations in Ireland, require passengers to change trains at Mallow. The world hasn't ended since this was introduced several years ago, and Killarney benefitted from an increase in frequency as a result and more tourists.

I would also imagine that most tourists wouldn't be as price sensitive to worry about paying a different fare with the change in train times. In fact I'd imagine that the earlier arrival of 10:14 off an 08:10 connection from Marylebone will prove more attractive.

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So Network South East was just wasting its time when it went to so much trouble back in the 1990s to design a through service between Paddington, Oxford and Stratford upon Avon aimed at tourists, was it?

Trying to compare Dublin-Killarney with London-Stratford is not on. They are different markets, with Stratford being a day trip destination for a great many tourists. Trying to visit Killarney from Dublin for the day would mean over six-and-a-half hours on trains, whether or not you have to change. I can think of a few better ways to spend my time on holiday.

And how many tourists do you imagine are going to want to fight their way through the London morning peak to get to Marylebone for 8.10am? And while you may be happy to change trains, many people aren't, especially if visiting a country they don't know that well.

cm39275 said:

On the Fujitsu star system there is a Bicester stations option but just like Oxford parkway there is no fares set for them yet. So maybe we will see for tickets in the London direction valid to both Bicester village and Bicester North.

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Interesting...BRFares shows Bicester Bus via Milton Keynes, Bicester North, Bicester Taxibus (the commuter service to the surrounding villages), Bicester Vil Bus (formerly Bicester Village, i.e. Bicester North + Shuttle Bus to the Village) and Bicester Village (formerly Bicester Town), but no Bicester Stations.

As for the Stratford situation, if there was sufficient stock to do so, I'd favour portion working, with one of the Birmingham trains dropping a Stratford portion (probably a 172 or 168/3) at Banbury or Leamington Spa. This may need infrastructure work on the Stratford branch as well, however.

jimm said:

So Network South East was just wasting its time when it went to so much trouble back in the 1990s to design a through service between Paddington, Oxford and Stratford upon Avon aimed at tourists, was it?

Trying to compare Dublin-Killarney with London-Stratford is not on. They are different markets, with Stratford being a day trip destination for a great many tourists. Trying to visit Killarney from Dublin for the day would mean over six-and-a-half hours on trains, whether or not you have to change. I can think of a few better ways to spend my time on holiday.

And how many tourists do you imagine are going to want to fight their way through the London morning peak to get to Marylebone for 8.10am? And while you may be happy to change trains, many people aren't, especially if visiting a country they don't know that well.

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I'm assuming the Paddington - Stratford-upon-Avon services were not that popular? Otherwise why did FGW offload them to Chiltern, and why ever since Chiltern have been gradually down grading them?

BanburyBlue said:

Otherwise why did FGW offload them to Chiltern...

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You surely mean why did the DfT transfer the service from from the GW franchise to the Chiltern franchise?

Because they could, it's their railway.

I doubt there's any examples of a TOC 'offloading' a route unilaterally...

Indeed, I doubt it was FGW's choice to lose the Stratford upon Avon service.

CyrusWuff said:

0724SX from Oxford Parkway (due Marylebone at 0820) and 1818 return (due Oxford Parkway 1919) to be formed of one of the "Silver" sets and run non-stop between Haddenham & Thame Parkway and Marylebone.

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Crikey, is that deliberate? I assumed it was a mistake. I would expect that to become the Bicester train of choice as it's perfect commuter timings for a typical office day.

jimm said:

So Network South East was just wasting its time when it went to so much trouble back in the 1990s to design a through service between Paddington, Oxford and Stratford upon Avon aimed at tourists, was it?

Trying to compare Dublin-Killarney with London-Stratford is not on. They are different markets, with Stratford being a day trip destination for a great many tourists. Trying to visit Killarney from Dublin for the day would mean over six-and-a-half hours on trains, whether or not you have to change. I can think of a few better ways to spend my time on holiday.

And how many tourists do you imagine are going to want to fight their way through the London morning peak to get to Marylebone for 8.10am? And while you may be happy to change trains, many people aren't, especially if visiting a country they don't know that well.

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I'm not suggesting people would make the trip to Killarney and back in one day. My point was that they manage quite simply (in large numbers) to change trains at Mallow without any fuss. Killarney lost several direct trains from Dublin, but gained in terms of additional connecting services, and the world didn't end, in fact numbers rose!

Similarly I don't see the world ending due to people having to change at Leamington Spa from a fast Marylebone-Birmingham service. Tourists manage to change trains all over the world without fuss, and I think they will manage this one as well.

The number of trains (direct or connecting) between London and Stratford will increase as a result of this. That has to be good news.

I'm not sure whether I can take your last paragraph seriously or not. In much the same way people would "battle" to get to Marylebone for 09:10 they will manage to get there for 08:10. In much the same way people start days out at even earlier times than that all across the world, they will manage it. Go to any London terminal from 07:00 and you will see plenty of tourists heading off on days out from the capital.

berneyarms said:

I'm not suggesting people would make the trip to Killarney and back in one day. My point was that they manage quite simply (in large numbers) to change trains at Mallow without any fuss. Killarney lost several direct trains from Dublin, but gained in terms of additional connecting services, and the world didn't end, in fact numbers rose!

Similarly I don't see the world ending due to people having to change at Leamington Spa from a fast Marylebone-Birmingham service. Tourists manage to change trains all over the world without fuss, and I think they will manage this one as well.

The number of trains (direct or connecting) between London and Stratford will increase as a result of this. That has to be good news.

I'm not sure whether I can take your last paragraph seriously or not. In much the same way people would "battle" to get to Marylebone for 09:10 they will manage to get there for 08:10. In much the same way people start days out at even earlier times than that all across the world, they will manage it. Go to any London terminal from 07:00 and you will see plenty of tourists heading off on days out from the capital.

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So all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds and we should all just roll over and let the infallible Chiltern Railways carry on doing whatever it likes...

No thanks. The fact is that the proportion of visitors to Stratford upon Avon using the train is pathetically low, in single figures, and a good few of them are coming from the West Midlands on LM's services. By contrast, the figure for Oxford and Bath is up around 25 per cent.

So proud is Chiltern of serving the town that the links to the pdfs of its October timetable on its website don't even bother to mention Stratford...

Mark Hopwood, the md of FGW, who was part of the team that developed NSE's Paddington-Oxford-Stratford service, reckons he can do better for both tourists and the people of Stratford by reviving that service and I'm inclined to agree, given that Chiltern's entire approach to Stratford since 2004 and the forthcoming changes indicate that it really couldn't care less and the need to serve the town is a tedious distraction from trying to hoover up yet more traffic from Bucks, Oxon and the West Midlands.

As for people battling through the London rush hour to get to Marylebone, the fact is that they just aren't bothering. Another striking Stratford statistic is the number arriving in coach parties is something like 15 per cent, almost double the percentage for Bath, indicating Chiltern just isn't convincing tour operators it is serious about attracting their custom. And providing a rail service without an arrival from London in Stratford between 10.14 and 12.03 (and both involving a change of trains) is unlikely to do anything to change that.