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One fare dodge every second on railways

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Aictos

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ATOC have released a press release which says about 100,000 journeys are made every day by fare dodgers which costs the railways the sum of £190 million a year.

This money could be used to lease a extra 1,520 carriages for comumuter services or a extra 1,060 carriages for intercity services failing that, the money could also pay for the upkeep of 380 stations for the next 5 years.

http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/latest-press-releases/one-fare-dodge-every-second-on-railways-analysis-reveals-100453

So rather then blame the DfT for lack of extra carriages maybe we ought to blame these fare dodgers!
 
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royaloak

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today I will mostly be at home decorating
Or maybe blame the TOCs for not taking fare evasion seriously outside "normal" hours!
All very well catching the odd suit during the day, but after 8PM whan all the barriers are open and revenue have gone home its like a free service to the less desirable element. These are the ones that need catching!
 

Lampshade

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And the research and evidence is publically available is it? FoI request needed to actually verify this.
 

Bittern

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Is this counting the passengers who board at an unstaffed station and the guard doesn't bother showing up?
 

jon0844

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Or maybe blame the TOCs for not taking fare evasion seriously outside "normal" hours!
All very well catching the odd suit during the day, but after 8PM whan all the barriers are open and revenue have gone home its like a free service to the less desirable element. These are the ones that need catching!

Absolutely. Late night fare evaders also cause other problems, so it isn't just about getting them to buy a ticket but perhaps keeping them off the trains altogether.

The police have had 2 or 3 'stings' at my station so far this year, and the RPIs have already told me how successful they are for a number of things, from catching people on warrant to drugs etc... and of course, fare evaders. Now it does strike me as odd that the police won't do more of these stings, seeing as the criminals come to them - as against having to walk/drive around and hope to get lucky.

More ticket checks will help reduce fare evasion. More police checks will reduce other anti social behaviour, forcing criminals to find other ways of getting around.

And, yes, the TOCs also need to make it easier to buy tickets at night too. Those that don't offer facilities, either before boarding or on the train, have only themselves to blame - and I hope these aren't included in the figures.
 

Aictos

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I only posted what they issued as a press release but I agree that more needs to be done out of hours as there's very little risk of seeing a RPI at night on FCC trains and thus the usual fare dodgers know which trains they can get a free ride on.

What should the industry do to combat this issue then?
 

Lampshade

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What should the industry do to combat this issue then?

- Scrap non-commercial Guards, well at least make them commercial
- Scrap DOO
- Where barriers are common make them operational from first train to last train
- Where barriers are uncommon perform adequate ticket checks on board
- Have BTP stings at known trouble spots
 

yorkie

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And on the other side of the coin... ;)

One fare overcharged by TOCs every second on railways, analysis reveals

19/04/2010

A journey is made on the rail network roughly every second by someone who has paid too much, passengers have revealed.
Passengers have estimates that around 100,000 train tickets are sold every day that cost more than they should.

Passengers estimate the TOCs actions deprive customers of up to £190m a year, money which could otherwise be invested in the economy and would encourage people to travel by train. It is estimated that £190m would be enough either to:
• Convert 1,520 car commuters into train commuters ; or
• Pay to keep 380 cars off the road for the next five years.
The analysis comes as passengers conclude that they have been thoroughly ripped off by the TOCs.

'Safeguards' are in place to ensure that people who are not familiar with the ticketing system are thoroughly overcharged and defrauded, and passengers should ask train operator for around 100 ticket prices before ensuring they are not ripped off. Staff are bullied into overcharging customers and can be reprimanded if they charge the correct, lowest, fare.
Michael Roberts, ATOC Chief Executive, said: “It is worrying that such a significant minority of people think that they should not pay more than the combination of fares. TOCs’ actions suck millions of pounds out of customers each year, money that would otherwise be encouraging people to ditch their cars, which would lose tax revenues for the Government
“Train companies quite rightly deal with customers in an unfair manner. If someone has a good reason for not having researched the best combination of tickets, inspectors will of course ensure that someone travelling from A to C pays at least double the sum of the fare paid for A to B plus B to C.
“We need a strong deterrent to rail travel and to help ensure that the vast majority of passengers don’t end up paying a low rate per mile that short distance customers pay”
Excuses that ticket inspectors have given for overcharging customers include:
1. “I'm 100% right that Old Street can issue extensions, because I'm a smug so-and-so and have no qualifications”
2. 16 year olds on a CHFAMticket: “I wasn't aware customers could be 16 on a CHFAM ticket, when I was proven right I slammed the door to my guards compartment and stopped checking any more tickets in a sulk”
3. “I was incapable of reading the ticket conditions, so I advised the customer Off Peak tickets were not valid, this is because I make assumptions rather than check the conditions.”
4. “I've never heard of the Routeing Guide. I decide what route you can take and I don't think it's valid.”
5. “I don't know the rules on break of journey as I've not checked in the fares manual”. When asked where their fares manual is: “Down the pub”.
Ends
Notes to editors
• Based on evidence from passengers’ initiatives to detect overcharging, passengers estimate that between 3% and 5% of the roughly 3.3 million journeys made on the network every day are made using tickets that cost significantly more per mile than had a split ticket combination been purchased. Applying the conservative lower estimate of 3% to the 3.3 million figure produces an estimate that there are roughly 100,000 train journeys made every day by people who have overpaid their fare. That equates to around 4,200 journeys made every hour by people who have paid too much, 70 every minute and roughly one every second.
• Based on the number of journeys made on the network, train companies’ combined revenue over the last 12 months should have been £6bn. Assuming that 3% of journeys made on the network are made using overpriced tickets, ATOC estimates that around £190m is stolen from customers due to overcharging.
• Train companies and Network Rail spend £1.25bn every five years on renewing and maintaining the country’s train stations, therefore they think they have the right to overcharge customers.
• For £190m per year, it is estimated that 1,520 people would switch from travelling by car to travelling by train.
• Train companies work within rules that they make up to trap and confuse the customer, charge through customers far more than local customers, and ensure that they treat customers with total contempt and any staff who assist customers are disciplined.
• All staff authorised to collect penalty fares have at least one GCSE at grade F and know how to say they "100%" know the rules when they do not. They are also trained in conflict creation.
• Train companies make it as difficult as possible to get the right ticket, so that they can apply charges that are fines in all but name.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And the research and evidence is publically available is it? FoI request needed to actually verify this.
It's pure fiction/guesswork. We can have a go at that ourselves! In fact, I reckon that far more than £190m is overspent by customers. I base this on the fact that the sort of journeys that are overpriced are the longer distance ones, and the sort of people who tend to overpay are business passengers paying for expensive tickets, sometimes paying £100 a time more than what I would consider the "correct" (as ATOC call it!) price of occupying the seat.

This ridiculous guesswork "analysis" is rather like a restaurant that charges up to twice the price of each individual dish for a meal, threatens its customers, and disciplines any staff who help customers by showing them good priced products on the menu, and occasionally gets the odd person walking out and not paying, producing a report harping on about how they are losing money. Would people have sympathy for them? I suspect not.

Instead of producing ludicrous reports like this, they should treat customers fairly, and change all non-commercial guards to be commercial guards, and do checks AT NIGHT when customers actually WANT staff to be visible and act as a deterrent to the minority that cause trouble. The figure of 3 to 5% will, surely, mostly occur on evenings when there are no ticket checks whatsoever on many routes. It's within the TOCs power to fix it, producing a guesswork report will achieve nothing.
Absolutely. Late night fare evaders also cause other problems, so it isn't just about getting them to buy a ticket but perhaps keeping them off the trains altogether.
Absolutely. There should be a rule that states that any station that is barriered MUST be barriered between 7pm and the last train, as that is when the barriers are needed most. I'm not saying I support barriers for IC type services, I don't, but when it comes to suburban services the barriers are open at the times they are actually needed :roll:
And, yes, the TOCs also need to make it easier to buy tickets at night too. Those that don't offer facilities, either before boarding or on the train, have only themselves to blame - and I hope these aren't included in the figures.
ATOC accept any responsibility for passengers being confused about getting the right ticket? There's more chance of getting a bi-mode IEP within the next 20 years!
 

Aictos

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I can't see the revenue staff agreeing to work the gateline at Hertford until the last train as they're usually based at Enfield Chase or Kings Cross and the last train southbound is the 2340, the last northbound is the 0138 so even if they manned the gateline until 2300, they need to cash up plus be able to get home.

This is why I rather go for a 24 hour service even if it's a hourly service.

Saying all that, what about the booking offices if they didn't get closed early then passengers could get a ticket there especially off peak.
 

Lampshade

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^^^ (Yorkie) love it :D

ATOC should be scrapped in my opinion, it just acts as a union against the passenger. Each TOC should be accountable for their own decisions without being part of a 'club' of gentlemen's agreements.
 

Failed Unit

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When I was a lad.....

Market Rasen was staffed from the first train until the last it even did red-star parcels. The person selling the tickets would stand on the platform when a train arrived an check the tickets of passengers leaving the stations (the gaurd would also come an collect parcels).

BR must have though that when the ticket office was closed that the money saved by not staffing the station must be greater than the money lost through not collecting tickets. I am also annoyed that ATOC seems to automatically brand people without a ticket as fare dodgers, the Lincoln - Nottingham stoppers gaurds don't have time to issue tickets to everyone that wants one and open the doors. When Newark Castle is unstaffed it can often taken them all the time to sell everyone a ticket on a non-stop service!
 

blacknight

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This is why I rather go for a 24 hour service even if it's a hourly service.

Saying all that, what about the booking offices if they didn't get closed early then passengers could get a ticket there especially off peak.


Booking offices are being closed early due to shift migration policies to a self serve either via internet or TVM imposed by TOCs to help off set the cost of installing gateline & cost of staff to man them.
This policy of automation also leaves passengers at risk of over charging themselves in selecting an incorrect ticket for their journey due to no Booking Offices staff to assist 7 offer guidence with purchase.
 

Failed Unit

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Booking offices are being closed early due to shift migration policies to a self serve either via internet or TVM imposed by TOCs to help off set the cost of installing gateline & cost of staff to man them.
This policy of automation also leaves passengers at risk of over charging themselves in selecting an incorrect ticket for their journey due to no Booking Offices staff to assist 7 offer guidence with purchase.

You mean like buying an anytime ticket from a TVM at 0600 as you don't think that an "off-peak" ticket will be valid at that time of the morning.:-x
 
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Greenback

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They are just making it up. ATOC are a trade organisation that only exists for the benefit of its members, the TOC's. All the points made regarding this rubbish press release are correct.

As evidence, I caught the first train East from Llanelli on Sunday morning, which was packed. The conductor spent ten minutes on half of the first carriage, dealing with all the enquiries and selling tickets to those who didn't have them due to Llanelli station being unstaffed (the TVM at Llanelli is usually out of order, and incomprehensible in bright sunlight). She eventually got to me, at the back of the coach about four minutes before arrival in Swansea, whereupon she had to dash off and announce the station, plus the connections available. As it was a 3 car 175, this meant that people in two of the coaches weren't seen, despite her best efforts. The barriers at Swansea were unstaffed and everyone just walked out. No doubt these people would be some of the fare dodgers referred to by ATOC!

Unfortunately a lot of media people will not understand the rail system and will just believe that everything wrong is down to the nasty old public, rather than examining the role of the TOC's and DfT in all this. ATOC will then have done their job in diverting attention away from the failings of their own members!
 

jon0844

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I don't doubt that fare evasion is a BIG problem, but I am not sure how you measure it. If you do it based on the penalty fares/prosecutions, it's only on the people you caught. Even when RPIs are out, they often miss people who move to the back of a train, hide in a toilet, alight at the next station or simply threaten staff who will then back off and give a warning (at best). Few will call BTP as they know there's little point. I can't see these being included as the staff aren't going to want everyone to know how many people they let off because the TOC has told them not to put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation.

I can also understand how you might cut back costs to the point where you decide that a level of fare evasion is acceptable - and covered by the savings you made. Except you now introduce all the other problems, vandalism, anti-social behaviour and a drop in passenger numbers as people think of stations as no-go areas. You really don't save anything in the long run.

Doesn't London Overground make it compulsory that all stations are manned while trains run? Why can't the Government make this a requirement for future franchises (not so much the Intercity operators, but certainly the others). If necessary, the tax payer can make a contribution. This means a better railway, more security, and hopefully more revenue (which can be paid back) in the long run. What TOCs will do this voluntarily? Force them to do it.

Also, how much would it cost to have staff on all late night trains, say from 10pm to 12-1am? These could act as a combination of security and revenue, but be employed by the TOC and not just some dodgy hired-in security guards that probably know the troublemakers rather too well! I remember when Wagn hired them, and they'd just sit in first class on their mobiles doing absolutely nothing.

What I really can't understand is how successful these late night stings are, as well as when they keep the gates manned at stations like Stevenage for much later than normal. Doesn't this just prove the benefit? What I'm saying isn't exactly clever or something nobody else has already thought of.
 

Greenback

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There will always be some sort of fare evasion. There will be a point where it is not commercially justified to ensure that every single person has a valid ticket and every penny of revenue is collected. But I think more can, and should be done. It is particularly pointless to install expensive barriers, inconveniencing thousands of genuine travellers a day, then to abandon them at 1900 when all the scum come out to play.

I'm pretty sure the TOC's instruct their staff not to get into a dangerous situation as they don't want them to be off sick as a result! A conductor getting beaten up for a £5 fare is soemthing that doesn;t make commercial sense!

I also think that, in many places where there are only staff in the station during the morning peak, consideration should be given to staffing in the evening as well. Locally, there is a bit of a lull after lunch, but then the evening rush starts, with people going out for the night, returning home after work and so on. I;ve been on trains where the conductor can;t get out of the back cab due to overcrowding, especially on Fridays and Saturdays.
 

jon0844

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The problem is how we got to a situation where staff have to back off for fear of being attacked over a £5 fare, as against putting fear into the fare evader.

Quite rightly, no TOC will let staff put themselves in such a situation that could get them hurt, but as a result everyone knows how to get away with it, especially when they're travelling as a group. RPIs (especially on their own) are not going to start issuing penalty fares to 2-3 hoodies at 1am! They should probably call BTP to back them up, but nobody seriously expects them to turn up for a few kids who didn't pay their fare. So, they get away with it - again.

It sends out completely the wrong message.
 

Greenback

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I agree, but I think it's down to a society that has let the yobs and criminals gain control. Following the decision not to prosecute the chap who stabbed and killed a burglar in his mothers house, perhaps we are finally going to try and redress the balance?

If we crack down on misdemeanours, as they have in some parts of the US, this may deter people from going to commit worse crimes, and may encoruage behaviour to improve. It may not work, but we should try it!
 

jon0844

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And, as said above, if it doesn't work we're hardly in a worse situation than we are now (or will be).

Most anti-social behaviour exists because people don't stand up to the people doing it (out of fear), which in turn makes it worse as those people continue to push the boundaries to try and provoke a reaction.

That's why nipping things in the bud makes so much sense.
 

Capybara

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You are playing into the rail companies' hands by blaming fare evasion on 'broken Britain'. The companies are moaning because people evade paying fares as if there is nothing they can do about it. It is in the companies' hands to ensure that passengers do not evade fares. And if they don't like that then they shouldn't be applying for the franchise in the first place.
 
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jon0844

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But 'Broken Britain' does play a huge part, whether we want to call it that or not - which sounds too political. Cutting politics aside, the fact is that you only need to look on any late night/last train (or indeed weekends and school holidays) to see the problems. It's isn't just about fare evasion, although clearly those people causing trouble are unlikely to buy a ticket when there's no way anyone can force them to.

To make such radical changes would require a change to the franchises, not just asking every TOC to fund loads of extra staff. Security should be a requirement of having a franchise, not just something that you ask/expect/hope a TOC will do for its own good. Otherwise we'll get operators figuring that you just turn a blind eye, given that it might cost too much to get the revenue and run the risk of getting staff hurt. That's where we seem to be today.

If franchises required a high level of security, then at least everyone bidding for a franchise would be on a level playing field.
 

Greenback

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I'm not so sure about using any part of the U.S as a shining example of crime fighting or prevention.

I donl't usually like to copy the US in any way, but on this I'll make an exception!

You are playing into the rail companies' hands by blaming fare evasion on 'broken Britain'. The companies are moaning because people evade paying fares as if there is nothing they can do about it. It is in the companies' hands to ensure that passengers do not evade fares. And if they don't like that then they shouldn't be applying for the franchise in the first place.

I hope I haven't given the impression that fare evasion is due to 'broken Britain'. Perhaps I should have made it clearer that TOC's aren't interested at certain times; the talk of bad behaviour sort of ballooned from the fact that rail staff, quite rightly, shouldn't get hurt or worse for the sake of a £5 fare. The fact that people can be killed for £2 drugs money these days shows how far we've fallen as a society, that's all!
 

jon0844

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As an aside, I do hate it when the press write stories about a drug addict that mugged an old lady for 'just £5' or whatever. Clearly, they wouldn't know how much someone had beforehand. Just like writing about trains hitting motorists on level crossings as if it was the fault of the train! (Rant over)
 

Greenback

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No, but there have been instances of drug addicts killing fellow addicts when they've been begging together. One instance down here came about because one thought the other had kept £2 or £3 for themselves and not split it, and in the resulting fight one got stabbed and died. Sums up modern Britian really.
 

blacknight

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You mean like buying an anytime ticket from a TVM at 0600 as you don't think that an "off-peak" ticket will be valid at that time of the morning.:lol:

Glad you can see a funny side cos I dont not with this greedy bunch of of money grabbing greed driven TOC's, anyway a TVM wont give you that choice at 6.00am.
My local station NCT run by EMT aka Stagecoach as seen no improvements in 40 odd years when they won franchise there was talk of ticket office reopening on part time basis.
Promises promises turn to dust what did we get a TVM & introduction of penalty fare system.
Happy enough to take your money but do they ever re invest it back into stations they proclaim to operate even privately operated Victorian railways offered toilet facilities to spend a penny at the station.
 

Failed Unit

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Glad you can see a funny side cos I dont not with this greedy bunch of of money grabbing greed driven TOC's, anyway a TVM wont give you that choice at 6.00am.
My local station NCT run by EMT aka Stagecoach as seen no improvements in 40 odd years when they won franchise there was talk of ticket office reopening on part time basis.
Promises promises turn to dust what did we get a TVM & introduction of penalty fare system.
Happy enough to take your money but do they ever re invest it back into stations they proclaim to operate even privately operated Victorian railways offered toilet facilities to spend a penny at the station.

I clicked on the wrong smile, it should have been the shocked one. There is nothing funny about fare simplification and how it isnt simple and rips off passengers. calling a ticket off-peak when it is valid all day is con-man tactics. You can buy off-peak from a TVM at 6am if it is valid on the route, it is just will the user trust buying it?

You TVM & Penalty fare combo shows perfectly how the TOC's assume that you are guilty until proven innocent. You arrive at Nottingham and the **** you. You say that the £20 you put in was rejected dispite serveral attempts they say tough. My worse example is in the days of WAGN. I paid of £3 with a £10 note, no ticket, no change, no £10. I went to the ticket office the following day and filled in a report "nothing we can do the machines are maintained by someone else" Lost £10, so as a result won't put notes in a TVM again, just use the permit machine instead, which can result in discounts when I can't find anyone to redeem the permit at my destination.
 
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