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Unread 27th April 2012, 13:24   #16
yorksrob
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Originally Posted by TheJRB View Post
I must say the journey between Tonbridge and Orpington was quite bumpy to say the least as it picked up speed, especially when trying to drink an open cup of coffee!
Ah, but the seats do let you bounce with the train (Unless you were in the CEP carriage obviously !).
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Unread 27th April 2012, 16:08   #17
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Originally Posted by starrymarkb View Post
Nothing what so ever to do with Air Travel - that is an enthusiast myth. Voyager Windows are huge (and the pillars are about the same as a Mk3 IIRC) and with the Pendolino the low window height is because of the structure with a rib running above and below the window. This is common to all of the last generation of EuroPendolinos (the New Pendolino launched a couple of years ago has much taller windows). The Pendo structure is very strong for its weight. UK Pendolinos also have roof mounted equipment (like the 25kV bus and all the insulation that UK regs require around it)
The body structure, perhaps; but the interior layout was designed to Virgin's specification, so that is their fault. (If one doesn't like it.)
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As it's almost all electrified in Kent, it serves quite a surprise when you travel on a 171 from Ashford to Brighton. The seats are comfortable (I don't know why Turbostar seats are better than Electrostar seats but they definitely seem to be) but the vibrating is noticeable and gets a bit annoying after a while.

I was quite surprised when I went to the Spa Valley railway last year and sat in the Class 101 coach; the seats were incredibly comfortable. But then when I was on the Thumper 201 last month, I must say the journey between Tonbridge and Orpington was quite bumpy to say the least as it picked up speed, especially when trying to drink an open cup of coffee!
Oh yes, the question of ride quality is another kettle of worms. The DEMUs (and the CEPs) were, I believe, notorious for ride quality with the original bogeys, and to be honest the VEPs and CIGs with B5 bogeys were rather notorious for their bounciness; maybe it was something to do with the dynamics of multiple units. I think that's one area where BR did get it very much right in the 70s and 80s; i think they reached a peak of ride quality that's declined since (a 444 isn't a patch on a 442, and a Voyager is hardly an improvement on a 158 or even a 150).

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Unread 27th April 2012, 16:24   #18
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Originally Posted by Snapper View Post
Yep.

In fact, we've had underfloor engined DMUs for a hell of a lot longer than 30 years. Some enthusiasts still can't deal with the fact. Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of passengers couldn't give a monkeys.
Will you stop keeping on. You think passengers couldnt give a monkeys. But you dont know for sure. You have no idea what they prefer. You just want them to like what you like. In fact, you seem to think everyone should like what you like, and if they dare disagree with you, you mark them down as an enthusiast, as if enthusiasts arent actually normal passengers themselves.

Oh, and I think we all know how long DMUs have been around, but that isnt the point here.
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Unread 27th April 2012, 17:12   #19
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Will you stop keeping on. You think passengers couldnt give a monkeys. But you dont know for sure. You have no idea what they prefer. You just want them to like what you like. In fact, you seem to think everyone should like what you like, and if they dare disagree with you, you mark them down as an enthusiast, as if enthusiasts arent actually normal passengers themselves.
Erm pot, kettle, black?
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Unread 27th April 2012, 21:06   #20
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Originally Posted by Schnellzug View Post
Oh yes, the question of ride quality is another kettle of worms. The DEMUs (and the CEPs) were, I believe, notorious for ride quality with the original bogeys, and to be honest the VEPs and CIGs with B5 bogeys were rather notorious for their bounciness; maybe it was something to do with the dynamics of multiple units. I think that's one area where BR did get it very much right in the 70s and 80s; i think they reached a peak of ride quality that's declined since (a 444 isn't a patch on a 442, and a Voyager is hardly an improvement on a 158 or even a 150).
Well, I agree with that! Always thought the Commonwealth bogie version were the best, but that's just my opinion. The leaf-spring versions were quite bad early on, but then they weren't really designed for sustained 100 mph running, and have always run fine on every preserved line I've been on (low speed helps). Still, the BT-10 and the T4 were both excellent designs, and fitting various similar bogies to multiple units was generally a good thing, partly because these units never get anywhere near 125.

Best ride of any British stock so far was a Eurostar, in which you fealt as though you were floating on a cushion of air. Again, it was nowhere near maximum speed, and that probably helped.
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Originally Posted by Oswyntail View Post
Unsurprisingly, comfort is a subjective thing, and designers can only hope to compromise. Appreciation of legroom depends on the ratio of fibula to tibia; even the amount of padding required depends very much on the amount of back support for each individual spine. We can look back at pre-Mk3 stock, and forget that it was poorly soundproofed, hard to clean, and with heating mechanisms that recognised only "stuffy" and "Freezing". The later Mk2 series through to Mk4 have all included an ambience that encourages one to feel comfortable, and this has been carried through to the new MUs. I do believe that this is half the battle in providing comfort to passengers. Pacers and Sprinters were, understandably, somewhat Spartan, so they do not have the "feel"; while appropriate for most of their tasks, this does compromise their use on longer routes.
Which leaves us with the Voyager/Pendolino problem. I personally do not feel the noise/vibration is obtrusive (but I am quite deaf!). However, perhaps because of a poor interpretation of tilt requirements, perhaps because of a misguided view that air travel is "luxurious" and "comfortable", both these classes seem to have been designed to resemble aircraft internally, with low ceilings, and small, inconveniently placed windows. The "feel" is claustrophobic, and, IMHO, in-conducive to an overall satisfaction with comfort.
Well, yes, there is that. Most of the older stock I've been in has been preserved, so it's bound to be in good nick and not used very intensively.

I can also add a few subjective factors
  1. I tend to like the temperature several degrees colder than most people
  2. I like draughts
  3. I am used to old-fashioned seats at home
  4. I am not very tall
  5. The sound of plastic moving against plastic makes me want to stick out my tounge and bite it!
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Last edited by LE Greys; 27th April 2012 at 21:06. Reason: Double post prevention system
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Unread 27th April 2012, 21:35   #21
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Originally Posted by LE Greys View Post

Best ride of any British stock so far was a Eurostar, in which you fealt as though you were floating on a cushion of air. Again, it was nowhere near maximum speed, and that probably helped.
Maybe the Secondary air suspension is responsible for that The 18m distance between centres helps too. (although the APT had a 21m distance )
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Unread 28th April 2012, 15:39   #22
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Erm pot, kettle, black?
At least i cant accept other peoples opinions, which i try to make obvious (although it may not always come across) when discussing such subjects.
Unlike this certain someone who puts everybody in the same strange basket if they disagree with him.
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Unread 29th April 2012, 06:42   #23
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Can someone get back to the original question?
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Unread 29th April 2012, 11:04   #24
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Diesel passenger comfort has gone downhill, on different gradients depending on the train you are talking about.

The Voyager for example has too much plastic cladding inside, underneath windows etc to make it look 'modern' which was modern back in 2001 but now looks dated but the seats arn't bad.

Meridians are pretty much Voyagers with lessons learnt. more carriages, less of the silly cladding inside, the sides are still slanted but its not as claustrophobic as a Voyager.

Adalante/Coradias are excellent trains, the 175's with ATW are nearly a modernised MK3 carriage inside, seats that line up with windows, hard but well shaped seats, plenty of tables and the same goes for Adalantes.

Turbostars in my opinion are more suitable than a Voyager for long distance XC routes. The seats are more comfortable, less of the claustrophobic interior, smart looking and in general a better design.

I can't comment on the 185's because I've never had one for haulage.
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Unread 29th April 2012, 12:59   #25
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Lets all just slag of the voyagers again shall we? :/ People obviously DO NOT hate them or XC patronage would not have gone through the roof and continued to rise after overcrowding....
Notice i say do not hate, rather than like.
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Unread 29th April 2012, 13:26   #26
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Lets all just slag of the voyagers again shall we? :/ People obviously DO NOT hate them or XC patronage would not have gone through the roof and continued to rise after overcrowding....
Notice i say do not hate, rather than like.
This isn't the 'unpopular Opinions' thread.
In fact, that's given me an idea.
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Unread 29th April 2012, 14:35   #27
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Originally Posted by Robin GX View Post
Can someone get back to the original question?
I do find travelling backwards to be pleasanter than forwards, whether the motive power be diesel or not.
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Unread 29th April 2012, 17:29   #28
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Originally Posted by Robin GX View Post
Yesterday I travelled from Birmingham to Newcastle on a Cross Country Voyager. An efficient journey but marred by the incessant grunt and vibration of the diesel engines right below me. Being a regular Chiltern traveller I am used to this, but it is such a relief to ride electric when on the West Coast line, and it makes one realise how little of the UK's railways are electrified.

Then today I am back down to London on a 35 year old 125, with power cars at the front and rear only, and suddenly it dawns on me how diesel passenger comfort has gone backwards over the last 30 years.

And all this aside from the fact that the First Class interior of the East Coast 125s is so much more spacious and comfortable than a Voyager or Pendolino's.

Does it have to be like this?
You obviously have not been in the Chiltern Bubble Cars or can go back to the days of the Class 101 multiple units.

Having been a passenger in Class 101, Voyagers, Adelantes, Eurostars, Pendolinos, Electric Desiros, Electrostars here is my top 12:

1) Adelante
2) HST
3) Eurostar
4) Electric Desros
5) Electrostar
6) Voyagers
7) Turbostar
8) Class 165/166/168
9) Pacers
10) Metrolink trams
11) Class 101/Mk 1 diesels
12) Junipers
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Unread 29th April 2012, 17:37   #29
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Personally, I wouldn't be able to class all Mk 1 diesels in the same category, as I've always found Southern Region DEMU's to have much more comfortable seating than 101's for example.

That said, some of the 1st gen DMU's seemed very comfortable though - the 127 springs to mind.
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Unread 29th April 2012, 17:38   #30
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Is this just a result of increasingly thinner seats to pack more in?

I remember when I got on that Hull Trains loco hauled Mark 3 formation from aaages ago, the seats were ridiculously comfortable (haven't felt seats like that since the Mallard upgrade, brought back memories of the IC Swallow era).
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