What counts as London?

RJ · 21 Oct 2012

Eagle said:
Except it's being withdrawn in six weeks' time.

Good thing I've already experienced it then! Was a bit bizarre seeing a kitchen fitted TGM coach rolling up to the bus stop outside Wandsworth Road with "Arriva Cross Country Rail Replacement" scrolling across the front. The driver tried to question the Zone 2-3 Travelcard I had on my Oyster at the time as well

RailUK Forums

Eagle · 21 Oct 2012

RJ said:
Good thing I've already experienced it then! Was a bit bizarre seeing a kitchen fitted TGM coach rolling up to the bus stop outside Wandsworth Road with "Arriva Cross Country Rail Replacement" scrolling across the front. The driver tried to question the Zone 2-3 Travelcard I had on my Oyster at the time as well

Interesting that it's calling itself an AXC replacement, being as I believe the parliamentary service is nominally ascribed to Southern (for some reason).

dvboy · 21 Oct 2012

Via/not via London doesn't necessarily mean London.

A Birmingham-Luton or Bedford ticket routed 'not via London' is not valid via Watford Jn and St Albans, and you'd need a 'via London' routed ticket for that route even though neither places are actually in London.

MikeWh · 21 Oct 2012

dvboy said:
Via/not via London doesn't necessarily mean London.

A Birmingham-Luton or Bedford ticket routed 'not via London' is not valid via Watford Jn and St Albans, and you'd need a 'via London' routed ticket for that route even though neither places are actually in London.

Is it valid via Willesden Junction and West Hampstead?

island · 21 Oct 2012

dvboy said:
Via/not via London doesn't necessarily mean London.

A Birmingham-Luton or Bedford ticket routed 'not via London' is not valid via Watford Jn and St Albans, and you'd need a 'via London' routed ticket for that route even though neither places are actually in London.

Come again?

wintonian · 21 Oct 2012

island said:
Come again?

Yes, please enlighten us further on this one dvboy. :?

dvboy · 21 Oct 2012

It's come up before: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=57510&page=2

If you put Birmingham-Luton via Watford Junction into WebTIS and choose routes via Not London and via London, the via Not London fares don't come up. If you put via St Albans Abbey only advances come up.

RJ · 22 Oct 2012

MikeWh said:
Is it valid via Willesden Junction and West Hampstead?

If going by the maps, only if TS or OV are given which is unlikely for this kind of journey. Mileages are unlikely to help either.

W230 · 22 Oct 2012

Eagle said:
The definitive list of London Terminals.

Probably an obvious answer, but why does Faringdon not appear on this list when City Thameslink does?

Deerfold · 22 Oct 2012

W230 said:
Probably an obvious answer, but why does Faringdon not appear on this list when City Thameslink does?

Probably to have one (special) station that they can say is not valid to pass through with a London Terminals ticket - any ticket routed specifically as London Thameslink or to Farringdon will result in a larger share of income going to FCC than a generic London Terminals one. If it was a Terminal they could hardly stop you passing through it to another one.

Eagle · 22 Oct 2012

W230 said:
Probably an obvious answer, but why does Faringdon not appear on this list when City Thameslink does?

Also possibly to do with the fact it's owned by LUL rather than Network Rail.

wintonian · 22 Oct 2012

Deerfold said:
Probably to have one (special) station that they can say is not valid to pass through with a London Terminals ticket - any ticket routed specifically as London Thameslink or to Farringdon will result in a larger share of income going to FCC than a generic London Terminals one. If it was a Terminal they could hardly stop you passing through it to another one.

Also for instance a ticket to St Pancras from Portsmouth (any permuted and minus the ✠) costs slightly more than a ticket to London terminals, presumably due to the additional validity on Thameslink.

I don't know if that's part of the reason for Farringdon being separate though.

W230 · 22 Oct 2012

wintonian said:
Also for instance a ticket to St Pancras from Portsmouth (any permuted and minus the ✠) costs slightly more than a ticket to London terminals, presumably due to the additional validity on Thameslink.

Excusing my ignorance (hopefully!) does London Terminals simply mean the first London Terminal you arrive at? Ie From Sheffield to London Terminals - my ticket would be valid only to St. Pancras i'm assuming?

wintonian · 22 Oct 2012

W230 said:
Excusing my ignorance (hopefully!) does London Terminals simply mean the first London Terminal you arrive at? Ie From Sheffield to London Terminals - my ticket would be valid only to St. Pancras i'm assuming?

Not necessarily, from the NRE link posted earlier.

Tickets issued for travel to/from London usually show 'London Terminals' as the destination/origin rather than naming a specific station. This is because the ticket is valid to more than one London Terminal station provided it’s on any reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services. For example, a ticket from Brighton to London Terminals is valid to Victoria, Waterloo (changing at Clapham Junction), London Bridge, Blackfriars and City Thameslink or Charing Cross Waterloo East or Cannon Street (changing at London Bridge). It would not be valid to, for example, London Euston or Paddington as this would not be on the line of route and would involve crossing London using another mode of transport.

Tickets which restrict travel on services of a specific train company or some special fares may be valid only to a named London Terminal station, e.g. London Kings Cross.

</SNIP>

Please note:

‘London Terminals’ tickets do not permit travel between City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras International on the First Capital Connect ‘Thameslink’ route. Such journeys will require a ticket either to the named station or to a destination of ‘London Thameslink’ or to 'Zone U1'.
Shoreditch High Street is not considered to be part of 'London Terminals'.

For example Vauxhall is a London Terminal but nothing except local trains stop there. If the rule was tickets were only valid to the first London Terminal you get to then no one would be able to go to Waterloo, Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

island · 22 Oct 2012

Not quite.

For example, a ticket from Dartford to London Terminals is valid to London Bridge, London Cannon Street, London Charing Cross, London Waterloo East, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Waterloo, London Victoria, and Vauxhall. Depending on the route, it may also be valid to London St Pancras International and London Liverpool Street. I've probably missed one.

Edit: this is a reply to W230.

wintonian · 22 Oct 2012

W230 said:
From Sheffield to London Terminals - my ticket would be valid only to St. Pancras i'm assuming?

As for 'your ticket' you would need to look at the routing guide to work out which terminals it would be valid to, however as has been said you can not go to or beyond Farringdon effectively meaning that if you were to go to St. Pancras you could go no further, but you should for example also be able to Kings Cross instead if you so choose.

Paul Kelly · 22 Oct 2012

National Rail Enquiries said:
This is because the ticket is valid to more than one London Terminal station provided its on any reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services.

Or, possibly less confusingly,

Me said:
After you have reached the first London Terminal, you may continue to any other London Terminal, provided you travel on National Rail services only and do not pass through any intermediate stations that are not London Terminals.

This is obviously much more relevant for passengers approaching London from the south where the terminals are more interconnected than they are coming from the north. In my opinion the main reason Farringdon is not a London Terminal is to satisfy this rule and make everything logical.

Eagle · 22 Oct 2012

Interestingly, Farringdon not being a terminal and preventing travel across London should also work for Crossrail. I wonder if by this logic Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road will not be terminals either?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

wintonian said:
As for 'your ticket' you would need to look at the routing guide to work out which terminals it would be valid to, however as has been said you can not go to or beyond Farringdon effectively meaning that if you were to go to St. Pancras you could go no further, but you should for example also be able to Kings Cross instead if you so choose.

Sheffield to London Terminals is valid to St Pancras, King's Cross, Moorgate and Liverpool Street.

wintonian · 22 Oct 2012

Indigo2 said:
National Rail Enquires said:

This is because the ticket is valid to more than one London Terminal station provided it’s on any reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services.

Click to expand...

Obviously no-one at NRE has updated this web page since 1996 (was there even a website then?) as it's now 'any permitted' routes as defined by the routing guide.

MikeWh · 22 Oct 2012

island said:
... a ticket from Dartford to London Terminals is valid to London Bridge, ... and Vauxhall. Depending on the route, it may also be valid to London St Pancras International and London Liverpool Street.

Is a Dartford to London plus HS1 valid via Gravesend?

island · 23 Oct 2012

MikeWh said:
Is a Dartford to London plus HS1 valid via Gravesend?

I cannot imagine it not being accepted, although I cannot find a rule making it so.

If/when they change PLUS HIGH SPEED to ANY PERMITTED, however, it would seem to make it invalid!

John @ home · 23 Oct 2012

MikeWh said:
Is a Dartford to London plus HS1 valid via Gravesend?

island said:
I cannot find a rule making it so.

My opinion is that the validity of a DARTFORD - LONDON TERMINALS route PLUS HIGH SPEED ticket is determined by the paragraph WHEN TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE in the document HOW TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE.

The ticket is valid because Dartford - Gravesend - Ebbsfleet International - Stratford International - London St Pancras is "the shortest route" by rail as "calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable" where "the correct fare has been paid to reflect [the] routeing indicated by the fares manual".

Paul Kelly · 23 Oct 2012

If only these fares were routed something more conventional like 'Via Stratford Int" and "Not Via Stratford Int" rather than "Plus High Speed" and "Not Valid On HS1" then it would be much clearer what to do in these circumstances - you could travel via the permitted routes to Stratford (shortest route via Gravesend and Ebbsfleet) and then via the permitted routes from Stratford to London Terminals.

island · 23 Oct 2012

I have visions of someone with such a ticket coming up with some tortuous route involving the Tilbury ferry and changing from Stratford to Stratford International in the last bit...

W230 · 23 Oct 2012

wintonian said:
As for 'your ticket' you would need to look at the routing guide to work out which terminals it would be valid to, however as has been said you can not go to or beyond Farringdon effectively meaning that if you were to go to St. Pancras you could go no further, but you should for example also be able to Kings Cross instead if you so choose.

Makes sense. So for the above example of Sheffield - London Terminals, you would not be allowed to take an EMT from Sheffield to Bedford and change to an FCC Bedford - Brighton service, hopping off (for example) at London Bridge. Not that anyone would do that anyway I just wondered if it was allowed! :lol:

Not allowed because you're travelling through Thameslink Stations (and/or it's not a reasonable line of route anyway.)

Edit: In fact I don't think i've seen a Sheffield service stop at Bedford anyway (they may do though - I don't know!)

Deerfold · 23 Oct 2012

W230 said:
Makes sense. So for the above example of Sheffield - London Terminals, you would not be allowed to take an EMT from Sheffield to Bedford and change to an FCC Bedford - Brighton service, hopping off (for example) at London Bridge. Not that anyone would do that anyway I just wondered if it was allowed!

Not allowed because you're travelling through Thameslink Stations (and/or it's not a reasonable line of route anyway.)

Specifically not allowed because you pass through Farringdon which is not a London Terminal.

W230 said:
Edit: In fact I don't think i've seen a Sheffield service stop at Bedford anyway (they may do though - I don't know!)

The 0557 ex-Sheffield stops at Bedford.

In the other direction there are a few trains from London-Sheffield which stop at Bedford on the way:

0545
1700
1930
2225

On Saturdays there's just 1 northbound service. On Sundays most Shefield to London and vice versa services call at Bedford.

What counts as London?

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