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TGV Collision In France
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28358137 should be the URL for updates.
Jona26
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Strathclyder
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My thoughts are with the injured. Could have been a lot worse.
Sad this happened, I've always had the view of French railways being efficient and way better than ours.
CC 72100
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My experience of living there for 8 months doesn't side with this view
Anyway, I'd rather focus on the accident - the pictures don't look too good, although it seems as if the TER unit sort of held up.. just about.
Thoughts with those involved. As it stands it's just injuries reported - hope that it remains this way and that there are no deaths.
Searle
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Very sobering, considering just two weeks ago I was on a TGV which came to a halt for a while on the track. Really hope the number of injuries stays as low as possible
swt_passenger
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Everyone else including Reuters is reporting that the local train (TER?) ran into the back of the TGV, yet the BBC have it the other way round. Wonder why there's confusion?
CC 72100
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French news reports - from Aujourd'hui en France and Le Figaro - report very clearly that the TER ran into the back of the TGV. This is also being reported on the official SNCF website: http://www.sncf.com/fr/presse/fil-info/TGV-TER-lescar-112241
Le Figaro claims that the TGV had stopped due to overhead line problems, and the TER which had left Pau station 13 minutes later at 17:13 ran into the back of the TGV. The TGV was allegedly doing about 30 km/h at the time of the crash, the speed of the TER unit is not mentioned/unknown.
SpacePhoenix
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http://news.sky.com/story/1303000/france-rail-crash-dozens-hurt-as-trains-collide
Must have been a fair bit of force in the collision to have buckled it like that
Would the line be a "classic/conventional" line with whatever the French version is of ATP/TPWS?
Must have been a fair bit of force in the collision to have buckled it like that
Would the line be a "classic/conventional" line with whatever the French version is of ATP/TPWS?
Peter Mugridge
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I used that line last year - went from Paris Montparnasse to Lourdes by TGV, the route is via Bordeaux and Pau... It's certainly a conventional double track line.
WatcherZero
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Good to see the crumple zones working as designed.
edwin_m
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Really? Looking at where the cab side windows have ended up, the TGV cab has been destroyed right up to its back wall, and any driver in there would have been very lucky to survive. Fortunately this appears to have been at the back of the train, and the photos tend to confirm that assuming left hand running as is normal on SNCF.
The TER set hardly seems to have crumpled at all.
WatcherZero
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Bit misleading to use where windows have landed as they will be moved by rescue services. The shot above was looking almost directly up which made it look worse than it was, from the side you can see it crumpled behind the cabin as designed leaving it intact.
The Ter's nose has been totally flattened with no damage to the cab or beyond.
The Ter's nose has been totally flattened with no damage to the cab or beyond.
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edwin_m
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Bit misleading to use where windows have landed as they will be moved by rescue services. The shot above was looking almost directly up which made it look worse than it was, from the side you can see it crumpled behind the cabin as designed leaving it intact.
The Ter's nose has been totally flattened with no damage to the cab or beyond.
Thanks for that - not as bad as it first appeared but it would still have been pretty scary for anyone in that cab. The "crumple zone" appears to extend right past the sloping windscreens to the driver's desk, then presumably there is a rigid survival cell for the driver with more deformable structure behind it.
However I think the TER was one of these:
http://foudetrains.hautetfort.com/a...llon-que-voir-cote-materiel-roulant-en-2.html
Doesn't appear to have had much in the way of a nose in the first place, and it's probably cosmetic rather than energy absorbing.
This line would struggle to be more classic and conventional!
It is part of the former Midi railway, which famously started electrifying its network very early in the 20th century. The section on which the accident happened was electrified in 1925, and the overhead is still Midi pattern (visible in the photos). Hardly ideal for TGV operation.
However the Pau - Dax route has been subject to major track renewal over the past couple of years.
Here's a link to a picture of the Midi system map which is on a wall of Bordeaux station:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Mid.jpg/260px-DSC_7807-Plan-Reseau-du-Mid.jpg
The local train was formed of a Z2 EMU (remember that 'TER' is a global SNCF branding applied to many types of train design). Unit number Z7364, delivered into service 14 May 1984. Interestingly this is a Languedoc Rousillon allocated unit running two regions away in Aquitaine.
I would hesitate to describe the nose as 'totally flattened': Z2 units don't have much of nose in the first place as can be seen in my picture taken at the now obliterated Geneve Eaux Vives station
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SpacePhoenix
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_Atlantique
Was the TGV a Atlantique model? Looking at pics on wikipedia that seems to be the best match based on the colour scheme
Was the TGV a Atlantique model? Looking at pics on wikipedia that seems to be the best match based on the colour scheme
Peter Mugridge
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Yes, that'll be an Atlantique.
Having said that, some double deck sets do operate on the routes off Montparnasse these days, but the only single deckers would be Atlantique sets.
The media reports seem a bit confused about the route the TGV was taking, but certainly last year when I was in Lourdes for a few days the only TGVs on that line would be the three a day between Montparnasse and Tarbes via Bordeaux.
Unless things have changed now?
Having said that, some double deck sets do operate on the routes off Montparnasse these days, but the only single deckers would be Atlantique sets.
The media reports seem a bit confused about the route the TGV was taking, but certainly last year when I was in Lourdes for a few days the only TGVs on that line would be the three a day between Montparnasse and Tarbes via Bordeaux.
Unless things have changed now?
Train was TGV 8585/TGV 8584 Tarbes → Paris Montparnasse.
Set was indeed a TGV-A, but livery is not much of a guide as - despite the recent arrival of the Lyria and Carmillon liveries, most TGVs currently still carry essentially the same 'standard' blue/grey livery.
There is some disagreement if set 318 or set 378 was involved.
Incidentally there are now give or take 14 different variants of TGV - makes me feel old as I have travelled on TGV since its inception in 1981.
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Set was indeed a TGV-A, but livery is not much of a guide as - despite the recent arrival of the Lyria and Carmillon liveries, most TGVs currently still carry essentially the same 'standard' blue/grey livery.
There is some disagreement if set 318 or set 378 was involved.
Incidentally there are now give or take 14 different variants of TGV - makes me feel old as I have travelled on TGV since its inception in 1981.
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A safety person from the SNCF has said that the TGV stopped at and had then been instructed to pass a signal failed at red. It went forward into the section at 30km/hr to be able to stop in case an obstruction was sighted.
He also said that the TER appeared to have also stopped at the signal. What then happened is not clear but it accelerated to 120 km/hr.
S&T had been asked to intervene and may have been working on the problem.
The SNCF person stated that investigations are in progress to identify if the signal could have turned to green or that the driver of the TER thought it had.
As to the closing speed, a local resident claims to have heard hard braking prior to the sound of the crash.
The TGV cab does indeed have a safety cage around the driver hence the crumple zone between the cab door and the electronics compartment. The whole nose cone is also a crumple zone.
He also said that the TER appeared to have also stopped at the signal. What then happened is not clear but it accelerated to 120 km/hr.
S&T had been asked to intervene and may have been working on the problem.
The SNCF person stated that investigations are in progress to identify if the signal could have turned to green or that the driver of the TER thought it had.
As to the closing speed, a local resident claims to have heard hard braking prior to the sound of the crash.
The TGV cab does indeed have a safety cage around the driver hence the crumple zone between the cab door and the electronics compartment. The whole nose cone is also a crumple zone.
To dig the thread back up again, this seems to be very similar to the Severn Tunnel crash in 1991....
edwin_m
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Reported on RMWeb that this could be a wrong side failure due to rodent damage.
WatcherZero
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SNCF interim report has found that maintenence work was in progress with wires exposed and rats were present and had possibly chewed through signalling cables. Though really the signals should fail safe not proceed.
It is also reported by SNCF Safety advisor that the TER apparently restarted under a green signal. I can imagine the damage rats can do, but I have a problem if they can overcome the basic safety features. I await the detailed report on the maintenance intervention.
HSTEd
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A misplaced length of wire in a wiring cabinet caused Clapham Junction 1988.
Rodents chewing away insulation and then moving through the wiring loom and pushing cables around could conceivably force a signal green.
Rodents chewing away insulation and then moving through the wiring loom and pushing cables around could conceivably force a signal green.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Yes, it would need a false feed from a nearby powered circuit to energise a relay. This could happen if two wires were bared and then pushed into contact with each other.
If it is really that simple, I have a problem with the safety case. This could be seen to equate to a single failure (2 wires coming into contact) which should be safe-side and not wrong-side.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
It's actually at least two failures (eg wire detached from correct terminal, comes into contact with wrong terminal) and probably three, although conceivably rodent damage could produce all of them. However accidents in due to wrong side signalling failures are extremely rare, certainly in the UK (before Clapham the last one was before WW2) and probably elsewhere too. They are normally at least partly due to human error.
UK usually has earth leakage detectors monitoring power supplies that feed external signalling circuits over lineside cables. Loss of significant amounts of insulation is likely to lead first to an earth fault which should generate an alarm so technicians can go and investigate before a second fault occurs that could conceivably cause a wrong side failure.
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