London to Amsterdam in 4 hours. Would you board the train?

EWS 58038 · 22 Apr 2010

What if there were three daily direct services between London and Amsterdam taking aprox. 4 hours for the complete journey... would you board the train?

Specification:
- Train type: Siemens Velaro (better knows as ICE 3)
- Service pattern: Morning, afternoon, evening (both ways)
- Intermediate calling points: Ashford (board only), Lille, Rotterdam (Alight only), Amsterdam (Alight only)
- Fare structure: Same as airlines do with a single starting at 49 pounds one way.
- Service level: Tea and coffee is for free on first and standard class, first class get 3 course meal at seat (included in price)

Train times: All times in local time
London to Amsterdam:
London Departures: 0700, 1230, 1800
Ashford Departures: 0730, 1300, 1830
Lille Arrivals/Departures: 0930, 1500, 2030
Rotterdam Arrivals: 1120, 1650, 2220
Amsterdam Arrivals: 1200, 1730, 2300

Amsterdam to London:
Amsterdam Departures: 0700, 1330, 1900
Rotterdam Departures: 0740, 1410, 1940
Lille Arrivals/Departures: 0940, 1610, 2140
Ashford Arrivals: 0930, 1600, 2130
London Arrivals: 0955, 1625, 2155

First London departure can be done at 0600 aswell if proven to be more popular

Would you use the service... and what do you think the maximum fare for the tcket should be?

RailUK Forums

j0hn0 · 22 Apr 2010

would you be able to pass straight through Brussels and Antwerp?

Yeah I would use it, I've taken the benelux train on the "classic" route before and it was really slow. All ICE's coming into Brussels take an age to get to Midi station though, plus the administration at all stations needs to be thought about too.

stut · 22 Apr 2010

I certainly would - ICE3s are a pleasure to travel on at the best of times.

However, as I used to commute to Amsterdam weekly (by plane), I'm all too aware of how the city attracts a rather, er, excitable group of people over the weekend. Now, it's one thing coping with that in the over-the-top security of an airport, and the staffing visible on a plane, but I shudder to imagine what 4 hours in a carriage with some drunk stag weekenders would be like. Happens on the Newcastle trains too, but at least it's free seating...

yorksrob · 22 Apr 2010

Yes, I would - provided the fares were reasonable (not necessarily cheap).

I may be biased since I have a visceral loathing of flying though :lol:

With regards to the inevitable stag weekenders, perhaps they should have a special wipe-down carriage to which they could be confined!

philjo · 22 Apr 2010

I would use it.
4 hours is quicker than the current service. In order to make sure that you make the minimum 30 minute checkin time to eurostar at Brussels you have at least 90 minutes to wait on the way back due to the current arrival/departure times at Brussels.
It should also call at Schipol.

EWS 58038 · 22 Apr 2010

Schiphol Airport station calls won't be possible I'm afraid as the station doesn't have the space required to facilitate the bagage scanning area. (The 6 platform station is located under the terminals)

And with 3 services a day I don't think Schiphol will be an atractive option for UK residents to travel to by train.

J0hn0 said:
would you be able to pass straight through Brussels and Antwerp?

Calling at Antwerp and Brussels would be direct competition with Eurostar and is not allowed under a Open Acces licence.

jamesontheroad · 22 Apr 2010

You're probably asking in the wrong place... of course we'd take it

You should try going over to airliners.net or another plane-fan forum and asking there. Four hours city centre to city centre is approaching a very attractive threshold level for people frustrated with the city to airport commute, security, queues etc.

stut · 22 Apr 2010

Maybe they could finally realise that baggage scanners are pointless when you can just drive on to the train at Folkestone?

No, that would be just silly.

yorksrob · 22 Apr 2010

jamesontheroad said:
You're probably asking in the wrong place... of course we'd take it

You should try going over to airliners.net or another plane-fan forum and asking there.

But they'd be just as biased as we are :lol:

gordonthemoron · 22 Apr 2010

not much of a view out of the v.small windows on a plane. Even worse than a Pendolino

me123 · 23 Apr 2010

Considering the huge number of people who take the (fantastic) P&O ferries to Rotterdam, I think you would have a market. The Londoners would probably make the switch (given that you would get roughly comparable end-end journey times for many I would imagine). Perhaps as you go further North, the ferries and planes would continue to be the first choice (as is still the case for Paris), but I do think it would be a worthwhile service if it were competitively priced.

The problem with the Northerners it that, yes it would be feasible for me to get to Amsterdam in a day, but flying is considerably quicker. If, like me, you wouldn't fly, P&O's excellent ferry service allows you to cross the North Sea through the night and breaks up the journey. But certainly London-Amsterdam would be fantastic.

I would also like to see it call at Schipol, to facilitate transfers onto air travel. KLM have a fantastic worldwide service. But I appreciate that logistics may deter this operation.

Max · 23 Apr 2010

me123 said:
The problem with the Northerners it that, yes it would be feasible for me to get to Amsterdam in a day, but flying is considerably quicker. If, like me, you wouldn't fly, P&O's excellent ferry service allows you to cross the North Sea through the night and breaks up the journey. But certainly London-Amsterdam would be fantastic.

Very true. If, like me, you live within about an hour and a half (or even 15 mins away

) from the docks in Hull, it's much easier to take the overnight ferry than be faffing around with travelling down to London. P&O do very competitively priced minicruises too.

me123 · 23 Apr 2010

To be honest, Max, I'd rather drive to Hull (about 5 hours-about the same time as a train to London) and then take the ferry than go by train to London. As great as the London trains are, I'd rather enjoy an evening with a bed on the boat than spend a whole day travelling.

gordonthemoron · 23 Apr 2010

you can also get the ferry from Newcastle to Ijmuiden (amsterdam)

EWS 58038 · 23 Apr 2010

Currently there is an average of 47 inbound flights from Greater London (all airports) to Amsterdam, and a equal number return flights. So I think there is a business case here...

Aictos · 23 Apr 2010

I would be interested in such a trip,

ian13 · 23 Apr 2010

Certainly. The more viable services to main land europe that don't involve planes the better. 4 hours centre-to-centre is very good once you consider the airport check-in and security.

DaveNewcastle · 23 Apr 2010

Yes, I'd be interested, and I might use the service. But not often.
As others living in the northern half of our Isles have said, there would b easier ways of getting there, and if the reason for getting there was to travel onwards to somewhere else in the Netherlands (or NW Germany), then the benefit that Londoners might see simply wouldn't apply to us.

Perhaps some highly discounted ticketing for small family-sized groups / off-peak days etc might make it more viable, but for the single business or leisure passenger from the north of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, then its not really of any use - a bit of fun perhaps, but not useful.

For a few years I lived in Newcastle and worked in Brussells. Usually I flew, sometimes I drove, and only once took a train (never again!). Not sure this would tip the balance.

pinkpanther · 23 Apr 2010

EWS 58038 said:
What if there were three daily direct services between London and Amsterdam taking aprox. 4 hours for the complete journey... would you board the train?

Certainly. As a matter of fact I'm likely to have a make a trip to Eindhoven shortly, and AFAIK via Amsterdam is the most practical way to do it. As for costs...well, I'd say work out what the competing flight cost would be if they had to pay fuel duty like the rail operators, and aim for that.

One thing I would definitely look for is through ticketing from UK stations other than those on HS1, however (so in my case that would be Bournemouth - Eindhoven via Amsterdam for this example). It's a royal pain having to deal with multiple operators and websites when booking Bournemouth - Berlin, for example.

me123 · 23 Apr 2010

EWS 58038 said:
Currently there is an average of 47 inbound flights from Greater London (all airports) to Amsterdam, and a equal number return flights. So I think there is a business case here...

Let's remember that the four hours you spend on the train can be spent working for business people. Is it's possible to get wifi throughout, you've pretty much got a large share of the business market from day one. By plane, I'd be surprised if you could spend half the time working. This would provide a great link between the two integral European cities.

I'd honestly see a case for more daily services than the three you've suggested (although perhaps three a day would be a good pilot project). I'd imagine that maybe six or seven services a day could prove viable, especially once you establish a market. Just look at how many Eurostar trains serve Paris.

DaveNewcastle · 23 Apr 2010

me123 said:
. . . more daily services than the three you've suggested (although perhaps three a day would be a good pilot project). I'd imagine that maybe six or seven services a day could prove viable, especially once you establish a market.

Definitely!
Regular, frequent and available services work.
Occasional, inconvenient and heavily booked/busy services might work to some extent, but they won't attract pax from othr modes.

Greenback · 23 Apr 2010

I live in Wales, and I would use a direct train to Amsterdam! I agree, the overnight ferries from Hull and Newcastle are probably better for those in the North, but from here it's fly, the overnight ferry from Harwich, or Eurostar, none of which are any more inconvenient than the through train.

stut · 24 Apr 2010

me123 said:
Let's remember that the four hours you spend on the train can be spent working for business people. Is it's possible to get wifi throughout, you've pretty much got a large share of the business market from day one.

However, a large chunk of the London - Amsterdam business market is on day trips, hence the capacity from London City airport. The business you're visiting is likely to be near Schiphol (most are - there's very little near Amsterdam CS - although more near Zuid WTC which is only 5 minutes from Schiphol on the train).

So, you leave home at 5.30, get to City at 6.10, depart at 6.30 (ah, the joys of City), you're at AMS at 8.30, and in the office by 9.30 easily. A full day's work with clients, leave about 17.00, get the 18.30 (you'll have got your boarding passes on the way over), land at 18.30 and you're home before EastEnders starts. Not bad going.

However, for a train to arrive by 9, it would have to leave at 4am. So, 3.30am check-in, and no trains or tubes running to St P. Much less attractive a prospect, however much you can do on the train. If you're just going for a short meeting, then fine, but this was never my experience of the joys of the business day-trip.

There'll still be a market, of course, just as there was for Paris - Amsterdam on Thalys prior to HSL Zuid (who admittedly didn't have to deal with a time difference). But it certainly won't be able to see off the planes at 4h.

LE Greys · 24 Apr 2010

Certainly I'd consider it. I'd also consider London-Frankfurt, London-Marseille and even London-Berlin. The one I've been waiting for for years is London-Geneva or London-Mulhouse-Basel (when they open TGV Rhine/Rhone). Some of these might take a long time, but it still beats all the problems of flying. When you consider the vast distances of some EuroCity services, I'm astonished we only have the one Marseille train and the resort services. Still, it's a start.

dk1 · 24 Apr 2010

Been saying it for years that we need a service like this from London even before the problematic Dutch high speed line was complete. I think i read somwhere that there would be a very expensive cost to adapt 3 capital sets with the required signalling. This would be possible however with new build for the service. Im sure DB will make it possible as they are currently taking over the world of railways.

As somebody who dislikes air travel & suffers sea-sickness it would seem to be great for me & would come across as a very hassle free way to the Netherlands. Bring it on.

EWS 58038 · 25 Apr 2010

Amsterdam Central might be a bit problematic couse there is little space available for the check-in. But certainly Amsterdam Zuid has potential. The IC services from Amsterdam to Berlin also call at Zuid and ridership has not dropped since the service doesn't call at Amsterdam Central anymore. It only takes a 10 minute underground transit to City centre.

Peter Mugridge · 25 Apr 2010

I'd certainly use the service, yes, whether it was with an ICE3, a Eurostar or a TGV.

Caveat - I'd have problems getting to St Pancras in time from Epsom for the check in time for an 07.00 departure though. The first trains of the day from Epsom are 05.23 to London Bridge ( 06.14 ) and 05.32 to Waterloo ( 06.11 ).

For an 07.00 departure the check in would be closed at around 06.30 wouldn't it? Even with both those trains right on time I am going to fail to get to the barriers at St Pancras in time.

This rules out a day trip unless I do an "overnight" at St Pancras, and unless they build a dedicated supervised overnight waiting lounge that is not an attractive proposition! Come to think of it, they should build such a lounge anyway for people who are after the early Eurostar departures... (I'd happily pay certainly £5 and maybe even £10 for such a comfortable and secure overnight wait, and I'm sure I'm not the only one... )

Failed Unit · 25 Apr 2010

Considering people do London - Inverness and Aberdeen by rail I am sure that there would be a market for such a journey. I know you won't save all the hassle of airport security but if you are in no hurry then the view would be nice. I have done many rail journeys were air is about the same time door-to-door. Edinburgh / Glasgow - London and Rome - Milan to name a few.

Deerfold · 26 Apr 2010

stut said:
However, for a train to arrive by 9, it would have to leave at 4am. So, 3.30am check-in, and no trains or tubes running to St P.

Thameslink runs all night. Though probably not a big enough catchment area for a business case for a 4am train to Amsterdam.

London to Amsterdam in 4 hours. Would you board the train?

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Emeritus Moderator

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member