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Catering on short-haul services (or light rail/trams/metros) - could it work?

AY1975

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Do you think a buffet or trolley service could work on any short- or shortish-haul commuter routes or any other fairly short-distance service, either on the present day rail network or at any time in the past?

It has been tried in a few countries in mainland Europe. For example, in Germany a few DB double decker commuter trains in the Ruhr district had buffets (branded ZugCafé) for a time in the 1990s and early 2000s.

There have even been a few German tram/Stadtbahn systems with tram buffet cars, I think mainly on interurban routes for example between Düsseldorf, Duisburg and Krefeld. I've a feeling that the last tram buffet cars stopped running a few years ago: I suspect that they were killed off by a combination of Covid, hygiene regulations, rail vehicle accessibility regulations, and changes in eating and drinking habits. I wonder if such a concept could ever have worked on any UK metro/tram/light rail systems.

Here's a video of such a tram buffet car in operation:

Of course, until the start of World War 2 the Metropolitan Railway had Pullman cars on some of its Aylesbury trains. Whilst I wouldn't suggest that this could work on the present day Metropolitan Line, how about A60/A62 Stock and S8 Stock buffet cars? I expect they could potentially be popular with commuters from the likes of Amersham and Chesham. Obviously it would take up valuable space that could otherwise be used for standing room, although I suppose post-Covid it could have been a good way to tempt office workers back to commuting to their workplaces!

This thread from 2021 on the shortest journey you've ever done where you've bought and consumed refreshments on board may also be of interest:

 
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telstarbox

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Here in Southeastern land even some village stations have a decent coffee and croissant place in the morning - would be hard to get the same quality on a train. It would also lost money if you provided it 5 days per week due to flexible working.
 

sk688

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In Austria, the WestBahn trains have vending machines for hot/cold drinks for snacks

I've always thought something like that would go down well on short-haul services in the UK , and be more economical than a trolley
 

Bletchleyite

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Here in Southeastern land even some village stations have a decent coffee and croissant place in the morning - would be hard to get the same quality on a train. It would also lost money if you provided it 5 days per week due to flexible working.

The main issue is reliability. If it isn't there randomly you're more likely to buy at the station.

On the other hand there are enough stations that have no facilities nor anything nearby - that may be why the Settle-Carlisle trolley works, and I similarly recall really wanting a coffee on an Ulverston to MK journey and the first opportunity being the Costa at Lancaster.
 

JonathanH

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Catering has been progressively withdrawn from shorter length services in this country as the availability of places to stock up on suitable snacks has increased in the vicinity of stations. A relatively small number of people are prepared to pay higher prices on board for convenience, particularly on short journeys.
 

Bletchleyite

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Catering has been progressively withdrawn from shorter length services in this country as the availability of places to stock up on suitable snacks has increased in the vicinity of stations. A relatively small number of people are prepared to pay higher prices on board for convenience, particularly on short journeys.

It's also partly the move to high quality espresso based coffee being the preference. That said, there's no reason you couldn't run a Nespresso type machine on a trolley, they do in Italy, and while those have the ethical concern of the pod waste (and that of Nestle's themselves) they do produce very good coffee and are very small and lightweight compared to a massive Gaggia.
 

nw1

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It was normal in the 80s: semi-fasts from the likes of Eastbourne and Worthing had one service with buffet every hour, right until the end of the decade and probably beyond.

Going back to 1982 (before I used the Central Division) even Bognor services had it.

For whatever reason the Central Division seemed to be keener on buffet facilities on semi-fasts than the other divisions of the Southern, and had a large allocation of 4BIG (buffet) EMUs.

By contrast the South Eastern had more or less completely abandoned buffet facilities by 1981 (source: CWN).
 
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nw1

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This thread from 2021 on the shortest journey you've ever done where you've bought and consumed refreshments on board may also be of interest:


The answer to that one for me personally would probably be Havant-Haslemere, I have a distinct memory of buying a tea from the trolley once. Usually I would use the station buffet at Havant but on that occasion there was probably a tight connection.
This was relatively recently: it was a 450 rather than a CIG, VEP or 442. Perhaps sometime in the early 2010s.
 

Failed Unit

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It was normal in the 80s: semi-fasts from the likes of Eastbourne and Worthing had one service with buffet every hour, right until the end of the decade and probably beyond.

Going back to 1982 (before I used the Central Division) even Bognor services had it.

For whatever reason the Central Division seemed to be keener on buffet facilities on semi-fasts than the other divisions of the Southern, and had a large allocation of 4BIG (buffet) EMUs.

By contrast the South Eastern had more or less completely abandoned buffet facilities by 1981 (source: CWN).

I remember BR put trolleys on lots of trains in the late 1980s. I remember seeing them appear on the Cleethorpes - Birmingham service. Most of the stations along the route had no form of catering. But the journey times the passengers were on board was also relatively short, so passengers would be happy to wait until they got to Lincoln, Nottingham etc to purchase from the shops. Overcrowding worked against it as many times the trolley was stuck in a doorway. Passengers were not prepared to look for it when it happened. But Provincial at the time tried it on many routes. I think all 158 operated routes had it, with significant amount of 156 operated services. It lasted for about 2 years.

In NSE land I remember the London - Cambridge trains having trolleys, again very rarely used as the majority of the larger stations already had retail outlet in the stations and if you wanted something you were certain to get it unless you were late to the trian. Typical journey times were too short to really warrent the - lets get something mid journey.

I don't really remember buffets on NSE services, but understood many had them including London - Brighton, which was replaced by a trolley, which was replaced my nothing.

I don't see any reason why it would work now, when it didn't in the 80s, in my opinion provision on the larger stations has got better which almost removes the need for the trolley. But even on inter-city services I understand that the trolley on FGW doesn't do well (but others could contridict that view) - you know where a buffet is, it is normally open, the trolley seems more of a lottery. The flagship Edinburgh - Glasgow Scotrail route when it was operated by 170s, you needed to be in the right set and then know where it is, as it often only walked down the trian once.
 

Jan Mayen

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I believe the reason trolleys were withdrawn from Souther when the franchise last changed was that the company who operated the trolleys wanted a subsidy. I believe the only onboard catering in the whole of the former Southern Region is on Cross-Country between Reading and Bournemouth.
As much as I would like trolleys (or better yet, buffets cars and even the return of The Brighon Belle!), I doubt any onboard catering will return in the south east.
 

MisterSheeps

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Catering at or near stations only really works for origin or destination, not intermediate on a journey. If you travel in less well developed countries (e.g. Thailand), a plethora of people get on and come through lugging an ice bucket with cool drinks, or a thermos for coffee, and others sell snacks. If the greedy TOC wants an lb of flesh, that wouldn't work here, but i could see it working in places like north to south Wales, the Cambrian, etc, if the fee wasn't excessive
 

AY1975

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It was normal in the 80s: semi-fasts from the likes of Eastbourne and Worthing had one service with buffet every hour, right until the end of the decade and probably beyond.

Going back to 1982 (before I used the Central Division) even Bognor services had it.

For whatever reason the Central Division seemed to be keener on buffet facilities on semi-fasts than the other divisions of the Southern, and had a large allocation of 4BIG (buffet) EMUs.

By contrast the South Eastern had more or less completely abandoned buffet facilities by 1981 (source: CWN).
Indeed, as discussed in this thread from 2020 about the withdrawal of South Eastern Division buffet cars: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ng-before-the-central-division-did-so.208322/

As someone said in that thread, the Central Division's catering provision was rather over-generous in BR days both in terms of the products that were on offer and the number of services (including semi-fasts as well as fasts) that had buffets. That meant that for a time, even the likes of Horley, Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley got calls by trains with buffets.

To think that if the South Western Division had done the same, they might have had buffets on the Alton and Reading lines and Basingstoke stoppers. Not sure that that would have worked, though.

Buffet trolley on the Manchester Metrolink? Yeah, right!
I don't think a roving trolley on a tram would work, but I was thinking of something more akin to the Rheinbahn Bistro concept that I alluded to in entry #1 above. According to these two stories (in German) from the Westdeutsche Zeitung and the Rheinische Post respectively the service ended in December 2014, though:

https://www.wz.de/nrw/krefeld/rheinbahn-bistro-droht-das-aus_aid-27896685

 

WestCoast

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flagship Edinburgh - Glasgow Scotrail route when it was operated by 170s, you needed to be in the right set and then know where it is, as it often only walked down the trian once.

If I recall correctly, Scotrail still had a trolley on some of the express services on the 385s prior to covid.
 

Failed Unit

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If I recall correctly, Scotrail still had a trolley on some of the express services on the 385s prior to covid.
I understand they are trying to bring it back, but the joys of the 385s is you can get between sets with 1 trolley, the 170s you had no gangway so if you were in the wrong half tough. The first class offer back then was tea / coffee off the trolley. I recall in the past the trolley was in a set with only standard class seats and the 1st class passengers got nothing.
 

supervc-10

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I remember BR put trolleys on lots of trains in the late 1980s. I remember seeing them appear on the Cleethorpes - Birmingham service. Most of the stations along the route had no form of catering. But the journey times the passengers were on board was also relatively short, so passengers would be happy to wait until they got to Lincoln, Nottingham etc to purchase from the shops. Overcrowding worked against it as many times the trolley was stuck in a doorway. Passengers were not prepared to look for it when it happened. But Provincial at the time tried it on many routes. I think all 158 operated routes had it, with significant amount of 156 operated services. It lasted for about 2 years.

In NSE land I remember the London - Cambridge trains having trolleys, again very rarely used as the majority of the larger stations already had retail outlet in the stations and if you wanted something you were certain to get it unless you were late to the trian. Typical journey times were too short to really warrent the - lets get something mid journey.

I don't really remember buffets on NSE services, but understood many had them including London - Brighton, which was replaced by a trolley, which was replaced my nothing.

I don't see any reason why it would work now, when it didn't in the 80s, in my opinion provision on the larger stations has got better which almost removes the need for the trolley. But even on inter-city services I understand that the trolley on FGW doesn't do well (but others could contridict that view) - you know where a buffet is, it is normally open, the trolley seems more of a lottery. The flagship Edinburgh - Glasgow Scotrail route when it was operated by 170s, you needed to be in the right set and then know where it is, as it often only walked down the trian once.

NSE and later SWT had trolleys on the WoE line. I have vivid memories of always getting a KitKat on the train to London from Salisbury when I was a kid in the '90s. One of the very few times my mother would buy us chocolate :lol:

That's a reasonably long route however, all the way down to Exeter. Certainly it's a shame that the catering has gone completely from the route.
 

nw1

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I believe the reason trolleys were withdrawn from Souther when the franchise last changed was that the company who operated the trolleys wanted a subsidy. I believe the only onboard catering in the whole of the former Southern Region is on Cross-Country between Reading and Bournemouth.
As much as I would like trolleys (or better yet, buffets cars and even the return of The Brighon Belle!), I doubt any onboard catering will return in the south east.
Are there no trolleys on London-Weymouth these days?

I'm surprised as that is potentially a long journey (certainly London to Weymouth, even London to Bournemouth/Poole) in which I can anticipate many might feel like getting something on-board.

Back in the 70s (before my time on the railway, admittedly) the line had full restaurant service! Then hot buffet, then cold buffet, then trolley... and now nothing?

(It's been a while since I've travelled up to London, most of my journeys of late have been local class 2 services).

NSE and later SWT had trolleys on the WoE line. I have vivid memories of always getting a KitKat on the train to London from Salisbury when I was a kid in the '90s. One of the very few times my mother would buy us chocolate :lol:

That's a reasonably long route however, all the way down to Exeter. Certainly it's a shame that the catering has gone completely from the route.

Yes, that's another one which I think would warrant catering. Particularly as it serves quite a few small stations in the countryside, which might not have many facilities (Tisbury for example has nothing, the nearest place you can get food is - or was in the 10s, certainly - the Co-op in the centre, a good 10 mins walk away).
 

HSTEd

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The only way I can see a trolley working on such services is where there is a requirement to maintain a second member of onboard staff.

And even then, space is at a premium on British trains, so I can't see it being more useful than more seats.
 

JonathanH

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Back in the 70s (before my time on the railway, admittedly) the line had full restaurant service! Then hot buffet, then cold buffet, then trolley... and now nothing?
Right, but that is because at each step along the line, the functions were losing money. The vast majority of passengers don't use the on board catering facility where it is provided.
 

hexagon789

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I remember BR put trolleys on lots of trains in the late 1980s. I remember seeing them appear on the Cleethorpes - Birmingham service. Most of the stations along the route had no form of catering. But the journey times the passengers were on board was also relatively short, so passengers would be happy to wait until they got to Lincoln, Nottingham etc to purchase from the shops. Overcrowding worked against it as many times the trolley was stuck in a doorway. Passengers were not prepared to look for it when it happened. But Provincial at the time tried it on many routes. I think all 158 operated routes had it, with significant amount of 156 operated services. It lasted for about 2 years.
Many were outsourced, BR reasoned that if a private company would take the financial risk, they'd happily permit it.

Lots of shorter services in Scotland had them in the late 80s.

These included Edinburgh to Dundee semi-fasts using 150s, Edinburgh to Dunblane stoppers again 150s and even the short hop Edinburgh to Bathgates, barely 30 min journey but all off-peak trains had one advertised in 1989.

There was also a morning peak semi-fast Helensburgh to Airdrie and evening return with a trolley, I presume a 303 initially as it had the trolley service from about 1985-ish IIRC; perhaps latterly a 320 though.

If I recall correctly, Scotrail still had a trolley on some of the express services on the 385s prior to covid.
They did but cancelled due to COVID cuts and not planned to be introduced.

I understand they are trying to bring it back, but the joys of the 385s is you can get between sets with 1 trolley, the 170s you had no gangway so if you were in the wrong half tough. The first class offer back then was tea / coffee off the trolley. I recall in the past the trolley was in a set with only standard class seats and the 1st class passengers got nothing.
My understanding is that it's not returning to the E&G 'Express' services.

Are there no trolleys on London-Weymouth these days?

I'm surprised as that is potentially a long journey (certainly London to Weymouth, even London to Bournemouth/Poole) in which I can anticipate many might feel like getting something on-board.
SWR got rid of all catering a while ago.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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On the other hand there are enough stations that have no facilities nor anything nearby - that may be why the Settle-Carlisle trolley works, and I similarly recall really wanting a coffee on an Ulverston to MK journey and the first opportunity being the Costa at Lancaster.
My other half lives in Ulverston and I tend to pop to the M&S or Greggs just round the corner before setting off. If you take a sharp left after the road bridge over the Furness line, it's two minutes away down that road, along with a Starbucks also. :) It's a long journey to Cardiff and I often don't have time to risk ordering from the Lancaster Costa!
 

nw1

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Indeed, as discussed in this thread from 2020 about the withdrawal of South Eastern Division buffet cars: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ng-before-the-central-division-did-so.208322/

As someone said in that thread, the Central Division's catering provision was rather over-generous in BR days both in terms of the products that were on offer and the number of services (including semi-fasts as well as fasts) that had buffets. That meant that for a time, even the likes of Horley, Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley got calls by trains with buffets.
Though to be fair there were no regular services calling at Horley, Merstham etc. with buffets. There were a few positioning moves around the peaks whereupon a stopper might have a 4BIG in the formation because it then formed a fast or semi-fast down. Examples include the 1649 Three Bridges-Victoria stopper from 1982 (see Timetable World), calling at all stations to Purley, which would have provided the likes of Salfords and Earlswood (no off-peak service at all!) with a buffet.

To think that if the South Western Division had done the same, they might have had buffets on the Alton and Reading lines and Basingstoke stoppers. Not sure that that would have worked, though.
I guess Alton, Reading and Basingstoke aren't really the equivalents though; their Central Division equivalents would be the Victoria-Horsham stoppers or Victoria-East Grinstead, which never had buffets.

The South Western had less of this kind of semi-fast service, though the '82' to Portsmouth Harbour (typically in the 80s: Woking, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH) would be a possibility. It generally did not have buffets, aside from one or two peak services - though apparently (as discussed in previous threads) certain '82's had buffets in the late 70s. At that time they called at all stations (except Hilsea) from Guildford to Portsmouth, so the likes of Milford and Witley would have had regular buffet services! (Not all services did, just certain ones, presumably for operational convenience).

SWR got rid of all catering a while ago.
Surprised, as London-Weymouth could almost be considered inter-city (lower-case; not InterCity). Bournemouth via fastest service is around 1hr50.

Right, but that is because at each step along the line, the functions were losing money. The vast majority of passengers don't use the on board catering facility where it is provided.

A shame though... in the 2020s the romance of rail has mostly been lost, and the lack of catering at all is one contributing factor to that.

Bear in mind I'm talking with an enthusiast hat on rather than a business person's !
 
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hexagon789

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Surprised, as London-Weymouth could almost be considered inter-city (lower-case; not InterCity). Bournemouth via fastest service is around 1hr50.
Other similar more outer-suburban style Inter-City services have similarly lost catering. Thinking of London Midland, Southeastern, Southern etc all of which offered it until the mid-2000s/2010s on some of the longer fast services.

Also Chiltern withdrew catering and again they run a more outer suburban style semi-fast London to Birmingham service compared to Avanti, especially now with the revision of stopping patterns compared to when the Mk3 Silver Sets were launched complete with buffet counters.

A shame though... in the 2020s the romance of rail has mostly been lost, and the lack of catering at all is one contributing factor to that.

Bear in mind I'm talking with an enthusiast hat on rather than a business person's !
Well that's it unfortunately, it's not good business sense.

People are increasingly buying before boarding because:

- it's cheaper
- better choice
- more reliable

Many operators in Europe have cut catering over the years too on secondary services.

France barely offers it on anything but TGVs now.

Croatia only offers it on the Split ICNs during the summer and even then not reliably, despite many other long-distance routes from Zagreb taking 6-7 hours+

Switzerland cut trolleys from InterRegios some years back.

Italy cut it from most non 'Frecce' services, such as the few remaining tradional InterCity.

The Netherlands had a few routes where Coffee and snacks were sold by persons with a tray slung from their neck and backpack for hot water type affair, having previously cut the few buffet cars on some IC services during the 2000s, not sure if any of these catering sellers still exist since COVID.

Belgium hasn't offered internal catering for years, but distances are pretty short in the main.

Denmark has vending machines.

Increasingly throughout Europe, the only services which offer even a trolley service are mostly long-distance, often high-speed, InterCity routes. Traditional InterCity, interregional/cross-country routes are increasingly without any on board catering.

There are still exceptions, Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Poland all to some extent retain a more traditional full buffet or restaurant catering service on both top rank high-speed and InterCity services, but again not so much on secondary long-distance routes.

I assume its down to perceived demand, cost and logistics.

Much easier to provide catering more economically from a central or a few large stations on primary InterCity routes with high passenger numbers and quick takeover than hotchpotch on various infrequent, underused regional routes.
 
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Failed Unit

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Many were outsourced, BR reasoned that if a private company would take the financial risk, they'd happily permit it.

Lots of shorter services in Scotland had them in the late 80s.

These included Edinburgh to Dundee semi-fasts using 150s, Edinburgh to Dunblane stoppers again 150s and even the short hop Edinburgh to Bathgates, barely 30 min journey but all off-peak trains had one advertised in 1989.

There was also a morning peak semi-fast Helensburgh to Airdrie and evening return with a trolley, I presume a 303 initially as it had the trolley service from about 1985-ish IIRC; perhaps latterly a 320 though.


They did but cancelled due to COVID cuts and not planned to be introduced.


My understanding is that it's not returning to the E&G 'Express' services.


SWR got rid of all catering a while ago.
I can see why. Last year they were talking about re-introducing it on the HST services but needed to recruit. But no ToC will subsidise it. It doesn’t seem to wash its face financially. When you think back to the 1980s it was a surprise that the 442s were built with buffets.

One surprising thing last year was a trolley did appear on the west highland line. (But that is a long journey with many going end to end). The other interesting one recently was on the Settle to Carlisle when the trolley was on for a limited number of stations.

Be very interested how LNER do out of the buffets. Especially on Leeds / Lincoln routes. As all stops have station retail (maybe not Retford). Edinburgh and Newcastle seem to have good footfall but again that is a long way.

If I had a trolley and set up a business I can’t see me making money on the majority of ex NSE routes. Nottingham- Liverpool type routes maybe.
 

hexagon789

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I can see why. Last year they were talking about re-introducing it on the HST services but needed to recruit. But no ToC will subsidise it. It doesn’t seem to wash its face financially. When you think back to the 1980s it was a surprise that the 442s were built with buffets.

One surprising thing last year was a trolley did appear on the west highland line. (But that is a long journey with many going end to end).
Catering is provided on certain InterCity services currently - on Glasgow & Edinburgh to Inverness, Glasgow & Edinburgh to Aberdeen, a couple of Aberdeen - Inverness and a few Kyle/Far North Trains.

Recruitment issues means it's still sporadic with provision essentially only on middle of day services (ie about 1000-1500 departures mainly, only a few earlier or later).

There is a regularly updated list of services with catering on the ScotRail website.
 

AY1975

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It was normal in the 80s: semi-fasts from the likes of Eastbourne and Worthing had one service with buffet every hour, right until the end of the decade and probably beyond.

Going back to 1982 (before I used the Central Division) even Bognor services had it.

For whatever reason the Central Division seemed to be keener on buffet facilities on semi-fasts than the other divisions of the Southern, and had a large allocation of 4BIG (buffet) EMUs.

By contrast the South Eastern had more or less completely abandoned buffet facilities by 1981 (source: CWN).
Yes, and I also seem to remember reading somewhere (I've a feeling that it was in the May 1985 issue of Modern Railways) that some kind of catering service was provided on at least one morning peak train on the Eridge-Tunbridge Wells line (now the Spa Valley Railway) for the last month or two before closure, presumably as a way of saying thank you and goodbye to the few remaining regular commuters.

Does anyone have any memories of this? I would have thought that operating a buffet or trolley service on a non-gangwayed DEMU would have been quite a challenge!
 

mike57

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Transpennine Express have been getting more and more patchy with their offerings on the North route.

Hull Trains have recenctly introduced a trolley service in standard class

On board catering has been in decline for years, with dining car services disappearing for the most part. If on board catering cant be made to pay on a lot of medium to long distant services then I dont see how it could work on short haul services.

One assumes that if it were to be profitable it would be offered, or are TOCs 'leaving cash on the table' by not offering something.

On two occasions while travelling I have seen people have a take away delivered to the platform and grab it while the train stops, but I imagine there are a lot of ways that could go wrong, although on the second occasion it seemed like a fairly slick operation, but the proliferation of ticket barriers would limit where it would work, the last time I saw it was at Garforth, a young couple who joined at Manchester and who carried on to Scarborough. The delivered food actually looked really good.
 

The exile

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I don't think a roving trolley on a tram would work, but I was thinking of something more akin to the Rheinbahn Bistro concept that I alluded to in entry #1 above. According to these two stories (in German) from the Westdeutsche Zeitung and the Rheinische Post respectively the service ended in December 2014, though:
Used to be a regular (though not frequent) traveller on what I think was the U74 back round the turn of the century and only once encountered the Bistrowagen actually open and prepared to sell me anything.
 

stevieinselby

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Catering has been progressively withdrawn from shorter length services in this country as the availability of places to stock up on suitable snacks has increased in the vicinity of stations. A relatively small number of people are prepared to pay higher prices on board for convenience, particularly on short journeys.
Also because catering provision eats up passenger capacity – whether it's half a carriage given over to a café counter, or a trolley that needs to be able to get up and down the aisles without them being blocked by standing passengers. That's a luxury that a lot of local (and even intercity!) trains can't afford.
 

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