Hounslow loop services should be improved

[Sad Sprinter]

Moderator note: split from

How does Waterloo only get 60 million passengers yet each SWR train I get is packed like sardines?

Waterloo was at almost 100 million in 2019, now it's at approx 60 mil. Yet all the trains I've taken are packed. I rarely get a seat. Were the trains packed even tighter before?

www.railforums.co.uk

The Hounslow loop is appalling. I really does need more than a half hourly service and hourly(!) on a Sunday.

One interesting possibility is the introduction of the 4 day working week. If this happens, which It probably should, then we maybe be back in the office full time, given we have an extra day off.

I do think we need more incentives to commute on the railway. Perhaps some sort of “rail miles” scheme or “do 4 commutes a week and get a free coffee”? Anything. I say this out of complete selfishness as a rail enthusiast who misses the 2019 timetable. If I had the option of home working at some of the awful offices I worked in pre-COVID, I would have jumped at it.

 

[JonathanH]

The Hounslow loop is appalling. I really does need more than a half hourly service and hourly(!) on a Sunday.

In most cases the Hounslow loop stations have other options nearby such as the Piccadilly and District Lines. There are plenty of suburban stations in London which only have a half hourly service

 

[Sad Sprinter]

In most cases the Hounslow loop stations have other options nearby such as the Piccadilly and District Lines. There are plenty of suburban stations in London which only have a half hourly service

The Hounslow Loop has a lot of concentrated employment around Brentford, Kew Bridge and Isleworth. Whilst Chiswick is a sleepy place the others mentioned means it deserves at least a service every 20 mins.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The Hounslow loop is appalling. I really does need more than a half hourly service and hourly(!) on a Sunday.

One interesting possibility is the introduction of the 4 day working week. If this happens, which It probably should, then we maybe be back in the office full time, given we have an extra day off.

I do think we need more incentives to commute on the railway. Perhaps some sort of “rail miles” scheme or “do 4 commutes a week and get a free coffee”? Anything. I say this out of complete selfishness as a rail enthusiast who misses the 2019 timetable. If I had the option of home working at some of the awful offices I worked in pre-COVID, I would have jumped at it.

Maybe something like that or a season ticket that you pick the number of journeys a week you pay for and any additional ones are charged at a discount, I buy a yearly season ticket for 2 return journeys a week then if one week I go to office 3 times the extra one is discounted.

 

[Craig1122]

In most cases the Hounslow loop stations have other options nearby such as the Piccadilly and District Lines. There are plenty of suburban stations in London which only have a half hourly service

When it went from every 30 to every 15 minutes back in 2004 usage of many stations had tripled within a couple of years and trains were often full and standing. Presumably because it had become a realistic alternative to the Piccadilly line. Which is often packed even when it leaves Heathrow.

Why the Sunday service wasn't improved at that point I don't really understand. But it is now half hourly for most of the day on Sunday.

 

[infobleep]

In most cases the Hounslow loop stations have other options nearby such as the Piccadilly and District Lines. There are plenty of suburban stations in London which only have a half hourly service

What about hourly out of interest?

The Hounslow loop is appalling. I really does need more than a half hourly service and hourly(!) on a Sunday.

Until 12:45 and then it is half hourly until end of service.

Is this due to engineering requirements or are more people really wanting to travel at 23:15 on a Sunday evening than 11:15 on a Sunday morning?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There are plenty of suburban stations in London which only have a half hourly service

While that's true, it's not really a good thing (other than maybe a few remote-ish stations in outer London). Almost anywhere in London (or any urban area for that matter) these days, only providing a half-hourly service is basically sending a message to people not to bother using the train. I would say it's not good enough on the Hounslow Loop line or anywhere in London (or other big cities).

 

[nw1]

The Hounslow Loop has a lot of concentrated employment around Brentford, Kew Bridge and Isleworth. Whilst Chiswick is a sleepy place the others mentioned means it deserves at least a service every 20 mins.

At one point I do remember a fast service calling at Brentford and Hounslow only existed, half hourly. This variously went to Reading or Weybridge, depending on the era. Perhaps something like that could come back?

 

[Craig1122]

Is this due to engineering requirements or are more people really wanting to travel at 23:15 on a Sunday evening than 11:15 on a Sunday morning?

I think there's just a perception of that line as a sleepy backwater. It used to only be 4 coach trains on a Sunday too. I've been on one that was nearly 10 minutes late into Waterloo because it was crush loaded and station stops were taking so long.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Normally 5 minutes is deemed acceptable turnaround at the country end, but perhaps the single-track means that it's not resilient enough.

It's not only about the stock. There are minimum turn round times laid down for different train lengths in relation to the driver's diagram. Eg 4 car 450 is 5 mins, 8 and 12 cars respectively longer (time wise) if the same driver is working in and out. Therefore, in the case of Alton or similar locations, where trains formations are still at 8 or 12 cars (pre covid) up to late morning and again from mid afternoon onwards (no capacity or undesirable to break them down or make attachments in the peaks at Waterloo, as was) your timetable of 5 and 7 min turn rounds would unravel very quickly as many of those turn rounds on the '5 min' cycles would be formed of 8/12 cars.
And has been mentioned ref West of England. A classic case when the TT has been tightened to a point it falls apart if someone sneezes!
But again, as has also been pointed out, it's potentially a whole new world now, where, if the industry and their rulers are brave enough, they could start over in certain aspects, although with timetabling it is often found that even starting afresh, one can still come across the core problems that existed previously, if a proper job is to be done (keeping connections etc).

 

[Craig1122]

At one point I do remember a fast service calling at Brentford and Hounslow only existed, half hourly. This variously went to Reading and Weybridge, depending on the era. Perhaps something like that could come back?

This was off peak only and was scrapped with the 2004 changes in favour of a clock face service every 15 minutes calling all stations. I think usage has changed such that places like Kew Bridge now have higher passenger numbers anyway. The pre covid timetable did include some semi fast trains from Hounslow in the peak in addition to the core service, but they were very tightly timetabled so not sure if it would have ever operated reliably.

 

[Goldfish62]

This was off peak only and was scrapped with the 2004 changes in favour of a clock face service every 15 minutes calling all stations. I think usage has changed such that places like Kew Bridge now have higher passenger numbers anyway. The pre covid timetable did include some semi fast trains from Hounslow in the peak in addition to the core service, but they were very tightly timetabled so not sure if it would have ever operated reliably.

From 1997 for a few years Reading was 4tph, 4 coaches, off peak with trains alternating via Richmond and Hounslow. However it wasn't very reliable and reverted to 2tph 8 coaches off peak before the 2004 timetable change.

This change removed all peak fast Reading services and converted them to stoppers., eg what was always the busiest train of the AM peak from Reading, around 07:15 was slowed by 15 min with at least 5 stops inserted.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's not only about the stock. There are minimum turn round times laid down for different train lengths in relation to the driver's diagram. Eg 4 car 450 is 5 mins, 8 and 12 cars respectively longer (time wise) if the same driver is working in and out.

I guess the question there is, how much longer. A 4-car coach would be max. 2 mins for a fairly lazy stroll along its length. I'm sure I could do it in 1 minute, but say 2 mins to be safe - so on that basis, you'd think the difference between the 4-car turnaround time and the 12-car turnaround time should be no more than 4 minutes.

I guess one question here is, how much does it cost per hour to tie up a trainset compared to the cost of employing a driver (and possibly a conductor) for an hour? What I'm getting at there is, would be it cheaper to have a tight turnaround with a driver swap - so the train leaves after say 10 minutes while the incoming driver waits 40 minutes for the following train? As opposed to the current Alton set up where both train and driver wait for 25 minutes+ with no driver swap. (No idea how that works with the single track restrictions at Alton though)

 

[JonathanH]

From 1997 for a few years Reading was 4tph, 4 coaches, off peak with trains alternating via Richmond and Hounslow. However it wasn't very reliable and reverted to 2tph 8 coaches off peak before the 2004 timetable change.

True it wasn't especially reliable, and the Reading via Hounslow was slow. However, the timetable relied on a Staines to Weybridge shuttle that got in the way at Staines. In 2003 there was some attempt led by the SRA to remove awkward services such as the Staines to Weybridge shuttle which saw the Reading via Hounslow service diverted to Weybridge, and subsequently in 2004 gaining the stops on the loop.

 

[Craig1122]

From 1997 for a few years Reading was 4tph, 4 coaches, off peak with trains alternating via Richmond and Hounslow. However it wasn't very reliable and reverted to 2tph 8 coaches off peak before the 2004 timetable change.
.

At the time there were only 2 platforms at Reading which were generally operated with one used for Waterloo and one for North Downs. The extra 2 to Waterloo meant the platforms had to be shared which imported delays from one route to the other. There are now 3 platforms on that side at Reading so you wouldn't have the same problem.

I guess the question there is, how much longer. A 4-car coach would be max. 2 mins for a fairly lazy stroll along its length. I'm sure I could do it in 1 minute, but say 2 mins to be safe - so on that basis, you'd think the difference between the 4-car turnaround time and the 12-car turnaround time should be no more than 4 minutes.

No way you could timetable on the basis of a 1 or 2 minute turnaround in the real world. Shut down cab, gather equipment etc. Then at a lot of stations like Windsor or Reading you're fighting a tide of passengers coming the other way. And it's quite possible some of them will want to stop the driver and ask questions. Then you've got to set up the cab at the other end.

Henley on Thames has a 3 minute turn around and that's pretty tight even though it's generally only 2 or 3 coach trains.

 

[JamesT]

No way you could timetable on the basis of a 1 or 2 minute turnaround in the real world. Shut down cab, gather equipment etc. Then at a lot of stations like Windsor or Reading you're fighting a tide of passengers coming the other way. And it's quite possible some of them will want to stop the driver and ask questions. Then you've got to set up the cab at the other end.

Henley on Thames has a 3 minute turn around and that's pretty tight even though it's generally only 2 or 3 coach trains.

I think @DynamicSpirit was referring to the 'extra' time for turning around 8/12 over 4. The shutdown and setup are essentially going to be the same regardless of length, which would be the 5 minutes referred to previously. Unless there's something I'm missing, the only difference in timetabling a turnaround then would be the extra time to walk the length of the train.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I guess one question here is, how much does it cost per hour to tie up a trainset compared to the cost of employing a driver (and possibly a conductor) for an hour? What I'm getting at there is, would be it cheaper to have a tight turnaround with a driver swap - so the train leaves after say 10 minutes while the incoming driver waits 40 minutes for the following train? As opposed to the current Alton set up where both train and driver wait for 25 minutes+ with no driver swap. (No idea how that works with the single track restrictions at Alton though)

The difference in driver related turn round/change end allowances for 4, 8 and 12 cars (in my time - my BOLD) wasn't that great, but the minimum was (in 400 stock days) 4 mins for a 4 car, which increased to 5 with the advent CSR and set up time required.
The point being that if a timetable at country (end) terminus X is tied up to the tightest time possible in turn round parlance, you are building a timetable to fail, so an amount of resilience does need to built in, and this should include as a bare minimum the allowance for the longest train formation that might possibly use that terminus. This future proofs the TT in relation to future train lengthening (if needed) without the need to carve up the TT itself. The amount of resilience is often (as at Alton) driven by many factors - here we are talking of the single line, connectivity/conflictions between Aldershot and Ash Vale (don't underestimate the complexity of movements in the Aldershot area), Woking Junction and the route forward to Waterloo (and Waterloo itself).
Again, with respect, changing drivers/crews at somewhere like Alton is a total no-no, again for performance reasons, even if there were crew specific PNB facilities, which there aren't (AFAIK).

Someone has touched on the Windsor/Weybridge shuttle (as was) which divided at Staines years ago, another example of the plan as it use to be many years back, even in my time. Performance wise it was a (potential) 'mare, as it relied on all crew being exactly where they should be, and also the units not throwing a wobly and being failed for jumper cable defect or some such (added: windscreen wiper failures could be a cause of train delays, in general), and being where Staines is in relation to the network, any such failure (of the plan) could cripple the entire Windsor side service. The very reason such attachments/detachments were removed from the TT.

No TT is perfect, and is in many areas driven by aspects of Victoria infrastructure, but one has to remember reliability (trains that run on time) is the passenger/fare payer's main interest, it's not rocket science, so if a few extra minutes here and there improve the overall potential for that TT to operate successfully, day in, day out, then perhaps those extra few minutes are a price worth paying?

I always say, there is always room for a Ms K. Allsop phrase when it comes to train planning!

I think @DynamicSpirit was referring to the 'extra' time for turning around 8/12 over 4.

Yes, in fairness, that is how I read the post.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think @DynamicSpirit was referring to the 'extra' time for turning around 8/12 over 4. The shutdown and setup are essentially going to be the same regardless of length, which would be the 5 minutes referred to previously. Unless there's something I'm missing, the only difference in timetabling a turnaround then would be the extra time to walk the length of the train.

Thanks @JamesT, that's exactly what I meant. I was absolutely not suggesting 1 minute total turnaround times.

 

[Craig1122]

Thanks @JamesT, that's exactly what I meant. I was absolutely not suggesting 1 minute total turnaround times.

Apologies, my mistake. It wouldn't have been the craziest thing I've seen suggested though!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The point being that if a timetable at country (end) terminus X is tied up to the tightest time possible in turn round parlance, you are building a timetable to fail,

I feel I should elaborate on this point, in relation (specifically) to SW services, and critically, to Waterloo station:

Waterloo station, or should I say the track formation in the approaches there to, is a very finite piece of infrastructure, much of which is where it is due to the below track infrastructure, viaduct construction/bridge steels etc. My point being that the track formation is largely tied in stone, it can not be altered (in the throat area/Westminster bridge road bridge area) to any large degree. A number of changes were made in 2017, as many will know of, but other proposals put forward could not be done, I will say no more on that.

Back to the timetable: not widely understood (pre covid) is that with the TT was virtually maxed out (peaks) for train movements in the throat, there was no room for any substantial increase in volume of trains in the station throat. That which existed at that time could (perhaps?) have been completely reworked, but anything significant in the sense of a major uplift in the number of services using the station (even with the old International platforms open) was not going to happen, because of the implication of the conflicting movements (in the throat) that would have been required for any service level uplift.

This is why Waterloo (for some of us old fxxxx) was the driving factor in TT/train service provision. If the TT/plan works at Waterloo (platform occupancy AND crucially movements in the throat), then the rest of the overall SW timetable plans would/should work, but the knock-on was (and always will be?) that at some outer area locations (eg Alton) the timetable may look less than perfect.

 

[Foxhunter]

Probably not helped by the nearly half-an-hour turnaround time at Alton, which seems a huge waste of a train. I'm guessing that's mainly to do with the pathing restrictions caused by the single track between Alton and Farnham (which of course wasn't a problem back in the 1980s)

If the TT/plan works at Waterloo (platform occupancy AND crucially movements in the throat), then the rest of the overall SW timetable plans would/should work, but the knock-on was (and always will be?) that at some outer area locations (eg Alton) the timetable may look less than perfect.

I don't know, but I've always assumed that the 'long' turn round round at Alton was for resilience and to ensure that the Up and Down trains cross at Farnham so the level crossing barrier there only needs to be down twice an hour. (The local traffic at Farnham quickly backs up onto the dual carriageway A31 and can also block up the town's gyratory). I suspect that Big Jumby 74 is correct, but this is a very useful side effect.

 

[infobleep]

While that's true, it's not really a good thing (other than maybe a few remote-ish stations in outer London). Almost anywhere in London (or any urban area for that matter) these days, only providing a half-hourly service is basically sending a message to people not to bother using the train. I would say it's not good enough on the Hounslow Loop line or anywhere in London (or other big cities).

What about metro services that start outside of London but go in? For example Guildford to London Waterloo via Bookham services are mostly hourly. On Sundays via Cobham services are also hourly.

I think there's just a perception of that line as a sleepy backwater. It used to only be 4 coach trains on a Sunday too. I've been on one that was nearly 10 minutes late into Waterloo because it was crush loaded and station stops were taking so long.

But surely sleep backwaters are not more popular at 23:15 vers 11:15 on Sundays or do Londoners tend to start late and finish late on a Sunday?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What about metro services that start outside of London but go in? For example Guildford to London Waterloo via Bookham services are mostly hourly. On Sundays via Cobham services are also hourly.

Personally I wouldn't expect more than a half-hourly service at the country end of those kinds of services if the stations are basically serving villages. I was talking more about stations inside London that serve quite large populations within walking distance (certainly true of most Hounslow loop stations).

I would suggest a better example of the problem you're alluding to is the London-Woking stopper, which provides only a half-hourly service to a number of towns (towns rather than villages) between Surbiton and Woking, supplemented at some stations by skip-stopping the Alton/Basingstoke trains. I imagine a better solution for passengers there would be to run the stopper every 15 minutes, allowing the Alton and Basingstoke trains to run non-stop between Surbiton and Woking (like they used to back in the 1990s). Unfortunately, with capacity constraints at Waterloo, that might have to wait for Crossrail2.

 

[Craig1122]

What about metro services that start outside of London but go in? For example Guildford to London Waterloo via Bookham services are mostly hourly. On Sundays via Cobham services are also hourly.


But surely sleep backwaters are not more popular at 23:15 vers 11:15 on Sundays or do Londoners tend to start late and finish late on a Sunday?

Pretty sure Bookham was half hourly pre covid.

I said viewed as a sleepy backwater, it's taken years to get the extra Sunday service. Difficult one to call with regards how busy as it varies a lot. The half hourly should probably start earlier but evenings will vary a lot with time of year and depending what events are on. Mid January they're probably nearly empty, hot summer weekend much less so. I'd personally favour a slightly reduced Saturday timetable on a Sunday as well to give standard times 7 days a week.

 

[shakermaker_86]

Pretty sure Bookham was half hourly pre covid.

I said viewed as a sleepy backwater, it's taken years to get the extra Sunday service. Difficult one to call with regards how busy as it varies a lot. The half hourly should probably start earlier but evenings will vary a lot with time of year and depending what events are on. Mid January they're probably nearly empty, hot summer weekend much less so. I'd personally favour a slightly reduced Saturday timetable on a Sunday as well to give standard times 7 days a week.

Bookham was indeed half hourly between Monday and Saturday, with 3tph in the morning and evening peaks including the Southern extras to London Bridge, so we have had a 2/3rds loss in the morning peak time service.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

level crossing barrier there only needs to be down twice an hour. (The local traffic at Farnham quickly backs up onto the dual carriageway A31 and can also block up the town's gyratory)

Crossings are a part of the planning process, although if Farnham was considered (in 2004) I can't now remember. However I do remember that those along the Barnes-Twickenham, and Staines/Egham to Windsor sections were very high on the agenda of 'issues' to resolve, and still are no doubt. Pooley Green was particularly bad, but that was (in part) due to issues within Feltham Panel. If these have been resolved/are likely to be resolved with the revised signalling, I am not in a position to say?

I imagine a better solution for passengers there would be to run the stopper every 15 minutes, allowing the Alton and Basingstoke trains to run non-stop between Surbiton and Woking (like they used to back in the 1990s)

A planner in the making....like your thinking. Two major pinch points, the first being access to/egress from plat 3 bay at Woking without hindering ML UP and DOWN services, whilst still providing a clockface 15 min interval service on the stoppers...sounds easy....give it a try...for the record, I am not saying it won't work (in todays post covid world), just use the present base ML off peak service TT as a starting point (a one hour window should prove it possible or not?), to see which paths you have left to use.
If the above works out, then check paths SL/FL from Surbiton/Berrylands inwards (and reverse outwards), as once that point is reached (all routes come together) and so the overall pathing plan takes on a whole new meaning!

 

[infobleep]

Pretty sure Bookham was half hourly pre covid.

I said viewed as a sleepy backwater, it's taken years to get the extra Sunday service. Difficult one to call with regards how busy as it varies a lot. The half hourly should probably start earlier but evenings will vary a lot with time of year and depending what events are on. Mid January they're probably nearly empty, hot summer weekend much less so. I'd personally favour a slightly reduced Saturday timetable on a Sunday as well to give standard times 7 days a week.

It was Monday to Saturday but it isn't now.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I was talking more about stations inside London that serve quite large populations within walking distance (certainly true of most Hounslow loop stations).

I would not disagree, and I include eg; Mortlake having become a victim of the Hounslow loop reductions, so not only that direct route in itself.

 

[Craig1122]

I would not disagree, and I include eg; Mortlake having become a victim of the Hounslow loop reductions, so not only that direct route in itself.

It's not just the service reductions on line of route either. For example Windsor trains used to connect into the stopping services to places like Mortlake with a few minutes wait. Now it's closer to 20, a wait which is unavoidable and makes rail less attractive. Almost every reduction in frequency will be to the detriment of some passengers who have to change. That's something talked about far less than some of the increases in time for direct journeys.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

For example Windsor trains used to connect into the stopping services to places like Mortlake with a few minutes wait. Now it's closer to 20, a wait which is unavoidable and makes rail less attractive. Almost every reduction in frequency will be to the detriment of some passengers who have to change. That's something talked about far less than some of the increases in time for direct journeys.

You have just hit that old rusty nail on the head my friend, and some. I was a diagrammer so had it easy in some ways, and I will never mention names on the likes of here, but I worked with a couple of guys for near half a century who were absolute masters at timetable planning, and perhaps more crucially, the implications of connectional opportunities within the wider (not just immediate area) overall plan. Ironically one was main line minded, the other more inner area (both for their own reasons) and so a good mix of both.
I have no idea if either visits this site, I suspect not. But if they did they know who they are!