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Clearing the Air - RDG Report

bakerstreet

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RDG (rail delivery group) appear to have produced some new research which even tries to win on price.

We’re often told that flying domestically is faster, cheaper, and more convenient. This myth is amplified by quick comparisons that typically ignore the length of time security checks take at airports as well as ignoring add-on costs for luggage and seat selection.

Many don’t take into account of the time it takes to get to and from the airport and forget that railway stations are in central convenient locations, while airports sit on the outskirts of our cities.

There is also the environmental impact of these choices too. For example, travelling by train for business between Edinburgh and London is 17 times greener by rail than by plane, according to new Green Travel Pledge data...
 
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Watershed

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RDG (rail delivery group) appear to have produced some new research which even tries to win on price.


This "research" (aka PR spin) is full of holes if you look at the assertions behind its misleading claims.

"Reveals"? It's hardly as if the environmental credentials of rail vs air are unknown. More to the point, they rather conveniently omit any comparison for the (partially) unelectrified routes of Exeter to Edinburgh and Manchester to Aberdeen, both being journeys likely to involve a Voyager or HST - neither of which are exactly the cleanest in terms of emissions...

In terms of time, they quote the fastest possible train times even though in reality most services take longer. For example, for London to Newcastle they quote 2h36m - but there is only one train a day that manages it that quickly. The xx:00 fasts typically take 10 minutes longer, whilst the LNER xx:30 semifasts take over half an hour longer at 3h11m+. That's to say nothing of the countless weekends (or, increasingly, weekdays) with engineering works that considerably lengthen journey times.

They also take the scheduled departure times from Euston/Kings Cross, even though most people are travelling to or from somewhere in the city centre - so as a minimum I'd say you need to add on 20 minutes to get from (say) Oxford Circus to Euston or Kings Cross. The amount of time allowed at the airports is also excessive - an hour is plenty for the kind of experienced traveller they imply. In fact at London City that would be generous as the check-in desks generally only close 20 minutes before departure.

In terms of cost they are being downright misleading in including the cost of a taxi at either end. Very few people would use a taxi, given that this generally takes longer and there are decent public transport links for all but one of the airports they refer to. For Exeter I could perhaps slightly understand it as there are only local bus services to the city centre, but for all of the others there are rail links (whether heavy or light) or dedicated express buses.

The inclusion of baggage and seat selection fees for the flights is also misleading. With Loganair or BA a cabin-size suitcase travels for free even on the cheapest fare, which is as much as most people will take. And who really needs seat selection on a ~1 hour flight? By comparison most rail retailers only give you seat selection preferences, which are often ignored anyway when reservations are issued.

Furthermore, searching one month ahead gives a misleading impression of the relative cost of flights vs trains. A lot of people want to make plans further ahead than that, but whereas airlines take bookings ~12 months ahead, Advances generally only go on sale 12 weeks ahead. For a limited selection of routes it's longer than that - but again only through specific retailers and for certain days of the week, and times of day. If you did a comparison based on the walk-up Anytime fares you'd often be quoted 3+ months ahead of time, or nearer the date of travel once Advances sell out, rail would come out much less favourably. Let alone occasions where LNER/Avanti's "compulsory reservation" nonsense causes only first class fares to be offered.

On the frequency front, they only perform this comparison for London to Edinburgh (conveniently omitting to mention that rail is less frequent for London to Glasgow!), but even here they include Avanti services that run via the West Midlands and thus take around 6 hours. Given that elsewhere they have claimed the train takes 4h20m (again, rarely possible) it's unreasonable to include such slow Avanti services in frequency comparisons. And given that they're boasting about 'flexibility', they seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that there's no way of getting to London for 9am from Glasgow or Edinburgh without leaving on the Sleeper the night before...

A few more tidbits that speak to the poor quality of this "report":
  • "Save on ... card fees"? Err, not for the last 6 years since card fees were banned!
  • "Claim a refund ... if your journey is delayed or cancelled via Delay Repay"? Yet another case of causing confusion between refunds and Delay Repay, liable to land some unwary customers with threats of fraud prosecutions.
  • "Use a digital ticket for added protection if things go wrong"? What kind of protection would that be?
It's such a shame, because there are absolutely some valid points in there! But they are diluted by misleading and unfair comparisons.
 

Blindtraveler

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I have a feeling they may be getting wise to all the Haymarket people and will soon impose some kind of ticket restriction on this. There are also multiple problems trying to reserve itineries on flexible tickets from out of London destinations to and from Edinburgh where the core intercity leg is from king's cross with LNER, I was contemplating using an Andover to Edinburgh off-peak return a couple of weeks ago but whilst I could generate the itineries booking engines either would not sell me it at all or would offer to sell it but without reservations as they were not available
If going to Scotland by train my current favorite ticket is a off peak return to charing cross Glasgow with the origin in my case being Chatham but available for a broadly similar price from multiple destinations on the Southeastern network from as far out as faversham to as far in as some of the se metro stations, note that specifying a London terminal as the origin makes it more expensive most of the time. This ticket is valid on both London to Scotland main lines and should you wish to use the east coast you can travel with cross-country and grand Central should you prefer and I have done this several times as avoiding lnr has been second nature to me for some years now through various previous incarnations of east coast to CS but even more so since the horrible IET fleet with its luxurious seating that probably wouldn't even be acceptable in a prison cell with introduced


For travellers with plenty of time on their hands and sometimes on a budget although this is not always the case there are now three intercity coach operations between London and Scotland namely flicks bus, National Express and Megabus. From my own personal point of view I can't do this during the day as the journey is too long and doing it overnight now requires a bed extremely close by to the terminal point of said service for me to basically die in for about eight hours on arrival



If choosing to fly but not wanting to pay airlines high baggage prices then there are various luggage courier services that will take a bag or suitcase for you at a much lower rate however certain restrictions apply as to the type of bag and the contents, for example toiletrees are not permitted although you'd probably get away with something solid like a soap bar or one of these fancy body rub shampoo bars that are so popular at the moment
 

Benjwri

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Rail Delivery Group has published this ‘report’ on how trains are cheaper than planes in their mind. In my opinion it is an absolute embarrassment, I’m sure people will have more takes but my observations:
- The Glasgow fare is quoted on a day Avanti haven’t even released tickets for, so they’ve pulled those prices out of nowhere.
- I can find cheaper air fares, at 1/5th of the quoted cost, looking today, so these fares are also unreliable.
-Baggage fees quoted assume you pay for it separately rather than at the same time as booking.
- Using a taxi fare from a city centre to the airport shows how poorly conducted this is, and ignores the other, similar speed, methods of transport people would use to the airport.

If anyone can find the exact services by train and plane used for these fares I would very interested to see them.

Better by train​

We’re often told that flying domestically is faster, cheaper, and more convenient. This myth is amplified by quick comparisons that typically ignore the length of time security checks take at airports as well as ignoring add-on costs for luggage and seat selection.
Many don’t take into account of the time it takes to get to and from the airport and forget that railway stations are in central convenient locations, while airports sit on the outskirts of our cities.
There is also the environmental impact of these choices too. For example, travelling by train for business between Edinburgh and London is 17 times greener by rail than by plane, according to new Green Travel Pledge data.
Travelling long-distances across Britain presents a choice for customers between rail and domestic air travel.
  • London – Glasgow
    RAIL £133 PLANE £403
    RAIL £133 FREE NONE
    PLANE £126 £86 £191
  • London – Edinburgh
    RAIL £111 PLANE £394
  • London – Manchester
    RAIL £73 PLANE £311
  • Manchester – Aberdeen
    RAIL £77 PLANE £388
  • London – Newcastle
    RAIL £104 PLANE £347
  • Exeter – Edinburgh
    RAIL £256 PLANE £416
 

Nunners

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19 Oct 2018
Messages
261
This "research" (aka PR spin) is full of holes if you look at the assertions behind its misleading claims.

"Reveals"? It's hardly as if the environmental credentials of rail vs air are unknown. More to the point, they rather conveniently omit any comparison for the (partially) unelectrified routes of Exeter to Edinburgh and Manchester to Aberdeen, both being journeys likely to involve a Voyager or HST - neither of which are exactly the cleanest in terms of emissions...

In terms of time, they quote the fastest possible train times even though in reality most services take longer. For example, for London to Newcastle they quote 2h36m - but there is only one train a day that manages it that quickly. The xx:00 fasts typically take 10 minutes longer, whilst the LNER xx:30 semifasts take over half an hour longer at 3h11m+. That's to say nothing of the countless weekends (or, increasingly, weekdays) with engineering works that considerably lengthen journey times.

They also take the scheduled departure times from Euston/Kings Cross, even though most people are travelling to or from somewhere in the city centre - so as a minimum I'd say you need to add on 20 minutes to get from (say) Oxford Circus to Euston or Kings Cross. The amount of time allowed at the airports is also excessive - an hour is plenty for the kind of experienced traveller they imply. In fact at London City that would be generous as the check-in desks generally only close 20 minutes before departure.

In terms of cost they are being downright misleading in including the cost of a taxi at either end. Very few people would use a taxi, given that this generally takes longer and there are decent public transport links for all but one of the airports they refer to. For Exeter I could perhaps slightly understand it as there are only local bus services to the city centre, but for all of the others there are rail links (whether heavy or light) or dedicated express buses.

The inclusion of baggage and seat selection fees for the flights is also misleading. With Loganair or BA a cabin-size suitcase travels for free even on the cheapest fare, which is as much as most people will take. And who really needs seat selection on a ~1 hour flight? By comparison most rail retailers only give you seat selection preferences, which are often ignored anyway when reservations are issued.

Furthermore, searching one month ahead gives a misleading impression of the relative cost of flights vs trains. A lot of people want to make plans further ahead than that, but whereas airlines take bookings ~12 months ahead, Advances generally only go on sale 12 weeks ahead. For a limited selection of routes it's longer than that - but again only through specific retailers and for certain days of the week, and times of day. If you did a comparison based on the walk-up Anytime fares you'd often be quoted 3+ months ahead of time, or nearer the date of travel once Advances sell out, rail would come out much less favourably. Let alone occasions where LNER/Avanti's "compulsory reservation" nonsense causes only first class fares to be offered.

On the frequency front, they only perform this comparison for London to Edinburgh (conveniently omitting to mention that rail is less frequent for London to Glasgow!), but even here they include Avanti services that run via the West Midlands and thus take around 6 hours. Given that elsewhere they have claimed the train takes 4h20m (again, rarely possible) it's unreasonable to include such slow Avanti services in frequency comparisons. And given that they're boasting about 'flexibility', they seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that there's no way of getting to London for 9am from Glasgow or Edinburgh without leaving on the Sleeper the night before...

A few more tidbits that speak to the poor quality of this "report":
  • "Save on ... card fees"? Err, not for the last 6 years since card fees were banned!
  • "Claim a refund ... if your journey is delayed or cancelled via Delay Repay"? Yet another case of causing confusion between refunds and Delay Repay, liable to land some unwary customers with threats of fraud prosecutions.
  • "Use a digital ticket for added protection if things go wrong"? What kind of protection would that be?
It's such a shame, because there are absolutely some valid points in there! But they are diluted by misleading and unfair comparisons.
Agreed on all this, but just to add that they seem to have included a ridiculous amount of money for airport transfers (to/from city centre). £191 in transfers from London to Glasgow?!!! Even in taxis I'm not sure how they've come to such a high amount.
 

zwk500

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Rail Delivery Group has published this ‘report’ on how trains are cheaper than planes in their mind. In my opinion it is an absolute embarrassment, I’m sure people will have more takes but my observations:
- The Glasgow fare is quoted on a day Avanti haven’t even released tickets for, so they’ve pulled those prices out of nowhere.
- I can find cheaper air fares, at 1/5th of the quoted cost, looking today, so these fares are also unreliable.
-Baggage fees quoted assume you pay for it separately rather than at the same time as booking.
- Using a taxi fare from a city centre to the airport shows how poorly conducted this is, and ignores the other, similar speed, methods of transport people would use to the airport.

If anyone can find the exact services by train and plane used for these fares I would very interested to see them.
For clarity, the 2 extra lines for London-Glasgow are Ticket-Baggage-Taxi, top line for each is headline figures.
Full table is:
OriginDestinationRail FareAir TotalAir TicketBaggageTaxi
LondonGlasgow£133£402£126£86£191
LondonEdinburgh£111£394£114£80£200
LondonManchester£73£311£144£0£167
ManchesterAberdeen£77£388£279£0£109
LondonNewcastle£104£347£175£0£172
ExeterEdinburgh£256£416£296£0£130
Baggage and Taxi for all Rail Journeys is listed as free/none. Quote for sources is:
*Costs of a return fare between selected routes, leaving on 27 May 2024 and returning on 31 May 2024. Prices correct at of 4 April 2024 and are taken directly from operators. Minicab prices have been based on TfL rates and The Airport Guide.

I agree, it does seem highly selective and very much cherry picking things. There's no comparison of time taken point-to-point or where the ultimate journey origin/destination might be (London-Glasgow is a different comparison if you're actually travelling Hounslow-Paisley rather than Harringay to the City Centre).
 
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£375 roundtrip from Berwick to Devon the other week. OK, that was the 1st Class fare. But it was a collection of Advance fares (NB the claim about rail being 'flexible')..... You don't even seem to get a sandwich included these days....
 

Lampshade

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It's as disingenuous as comparing a rock bottom Ryanair fare to an Anytime ticket bought on the day.

*Some* train fares in this country are simply too expensive. The end.
 

GardenRail

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Rail Delivery Group has published this ‘report’ on how trains are cheaper than planes in their mind. In my opinion it is an absolute embarrassment, I’m sure people will have more takes but my observations:
- The Glasgow fare is quoted on a day Avanti haven’t even released tickets for, so they’ve pulled those prices out of nowhere.
- I can find cheaper air fares, at 1/5th of the quoted cost, looking today, so these fares are also unreliable.
-Baggage fees quoted assume you pay for it separately rather than at the same time as booking.
- Using a taxi fare from a city centre to the airport shows how poorly conducted this is, and ignores the other, similar speed, methods of transport people would use to the airport.

If anyone can find the exact services by train and plane used for these fares I would very interested to see them.
What a load of rubbish. I can fly Glasgow to London City TODAY, for £82 with British Airways. £125 by rail. I guess that doesn't include my bag though.... But one's journey doesn't necessarily start/end at the railway station.
 
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infobleep

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Maybe look at the bottom of the post
I am on a mobile and the forum software, through choice or no choice, insists on not showing signatures in mobile view. No idea of benfit for needing to do so or even if I can change the default behaviour myself.

I will briefly switch to desktop view.
 

al78

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What a load of rubbish. I can fly Glasgow to London City TODAY, for £82 with British Airways. £125 by rail. I guess that doesn't include my bag though.... But one's journey doesn't necessarily start/end at the railway station.
The journey times in the table posted by zwk500 above coincide with a bank holiday and half term which is very likely a period where air fares are elevated, rail fares do not increase over a bank holiday weekend or school holidays in my experience. If they are including a taxi from airport to city centre, that is also an attempt to inflate the cost of air travel. If I wanted to get from my house to Gatwick, I could get a train for way less cost than a taxi, or if I got a lift from a friend it would cost me close to nothing. You really have to look at the underlying assumptions used in these comparisons since with suitable selective criteria you can project any conclusion you want.
 

Benjwri

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The journey times in the table posted by zwk500 above coincide with a bank holiday and half term which is very likely a period where air fares are elevated, rail fares do not increase over a bank holiday weekend or school holidays in my experience. If they are including a taxi from airport to city centre, that is also an attempt to inflate the cost of air travel.
Even despite this I can find EasyJet fares from Glasgow to London on those dates at £50 return, so some serious fiddling of the prices has been done
 

flitwickbeds

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The Campaign For Better Transport regularly do these comparisons too.

I'd love to see a comparison using "not a city centre" to a city centre, as this is the way most people travel.

For example my house (nearest station Flitwick, about 3 miles away) to Edinburgh. To use the train I'd have to purchase a £15-40 train ticket (no Advances on Thameslink) to St Pancras (40 minute+ journey time), transfer to King's Cross (in my case they're right next door but someone coming from, say, Aylesbury would have to get the Tube also), and wait up to one hour for the train to Edinburgh before even starting the timer and cost of the Edinburgh train.
 

zwk500

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For example my house (nearest station Flitwick, about 3 miles away) to Edinburgh. To use the train I'd have to purchase a £15-40 train ticket (no Advances on Thameslink) to St Pancras (40 minute+ journey time),
You can definitrly buy advance tickets for LNER services that are valid from thameslink stations as 'Booked train + connectioms'.
transfer to King's Cross (in my case they're right next door but someone coming from, say, Aylesbury would have to get the Tube also),
somebody from Aylesbury is far more likely to drive to MK or Oxford to begin their train journey to Edinburgh. You could pick anywhere in zone 3/4 of South/West London though for the point to be illustrative.
and wait up to one hour for the train to Edinburgh before even starting the timer and cost of the Edinburgh train.
If you're travelling in on Thameslink with 4tph service on a weekday why would you be waiting for up to 1 hour at KGX?

Your point is valid but your examples are as bizarre as the RDG prices.
 

Snow1964

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The examples don't make much sense without a timescale.

Generally would have made much more sense to have given examples of someone booking a holiday (say booking 3 or 4 months ahead), a trip to an event (booked 3-4 weeks ahead), and short notice trip (business trip, funeral etc).

But of course would have produced silly results, some rail operators won't sell you tickets 3-4 months ahead, but airlines will.
 

flitwickbeds

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You can definitrly buy advance tickets for LNER services that are valid from thameslink stations as 'Booked train + connectioms'.
Presumably, though presumably there would be no discount on the Thameslink part, so the price would be "Whatever the Advance fare of LNER is plus standard Anytime/Off Peak for the Thameslink part" - ie for the Thameslink part I would pay the same amount regardless of whether I buy as part of the Advance or just walk up on the day.

somebody from Aylesbury is far more likely to drive to MK or Oxford to begin their train journey to Edinburgh. You could pick anywhere in zone 3/4 of South/West London though for the point to be illustrative.
Assuming they can drive, yes. If they can, why wouldn't they just do the whole journey to Edinburgh in the car?

Although an example from south/west/east London would make more sense from a railway comparison perspective, you would then have to assume they would use a more local airport to them, too. Luton Airport is just down the road from Flitwick and you'd have to pass it on the rail journey from Flitwick to London. So, the comparison of my house to Edinburgh on train vs plane would be:

Train
Taxi to station (5-10 minutes, about a tenner)
Train to St Pancras (40-55 minutes, between £15 and £40)
Train to Edinburgh (4.5h according to the report, £111 according to the report)
Total around 5.5h, and around £160

Plane
Taxi to station (5-10 minutes, about £10)
Train to Parkway (about 12 minutes, between £5 and £20)
Connection to airport (5 minutes, £10)
Plane to Edinburgh (£114, according to the report)
Total without checkin time around 1h45, around £154

I save money by going by plane (according to the report, I should be paying about £250 more if I go by plane) and it's quicker.

If you're travelling in on Thameslink with 4tph service on a weekday why would you be waiting for up to 1 hour at KGX?
Thameslink isn't 4tph 24/7/365. And, other lines which use the same example aren't necessarily 4tph either.
 

jfowkes

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Assuming they can drive, yes. If they can, why wouldn't they just do the whole journey to Edinburgh in the car?
Because the train is more comfortable than the drive? Long distance driving isn't for everyone, I can't stand it. I don't mind driving half an hour to a railway station though. Then I can let someone else do it.
 

pokemonsuper9

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£200 for "city centre transfers".

- Tottenham Court Road to Heathrow is £13.30 (By Elizabeth Line)
- Edinburgh Tram £7.50

Double that for £41.60.

Who would ever use a taxi to somewhere connected by train/tram, especially in London of all places.
 

Nunners

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Simon Calder in the independent has written a story about this, and gives a more reasonable comparison than the RDG:


Simon Calder
Travel Correspondent
6 hours ago
Comments
Could anyone loathe railways any more than the current prime minister? Rishi Sunak’s sheer contempt for the future of train travel (as well as the north of England) was most amply demonstrated when he scrapped HS2 north of Birmingham. Yet even as chancellor, Mr Sunak did what he could to encourage travellers to fly rather than take the train: on the eve of the Cop26 climate summit in Glasgow, he announced the halving of air passenger duty on domestic routes.
Airline passengers between Edinburgh and London comprise the most numerous beneficiaries of the tax cut from £13 to £6.50. So that makes it a good route on which to compare train versus plane for cost.

The Rail Delivery Group has done the work for me. In a new report, the organisation representing train operators claims: “Travelling by rail can be up to 80 per cent cheaper on similar routes than flying, when accounting for the additional cost of baggage and airport transfers.”

On Edinburgh-London the saving is a handy 72 per cent. A return train, out on 27 May and returning four days later, is priced at £111, while the cost of a flight is £114 – with an extra £80 for baggage and (wait for it) £200 for a minicab to and from the airport at either end.

An important element of research is peer review. The fares were researched on 4 April, and I am checking them 16 days later. But that is still five weeks before departure, so a fresh comparison is valid.
But the cheapest flight has come down even further: the lowest return airfare, thanks in no small part to the prime minister’s benevolence towards airlines, is just £39 on Ryanair from London Stansted. But that £200 in minicabs cited by the Rail Delivery Group appears to be for a combination of Gatwick and Edinburgh, so let’s look at the Sussex airport. The fare on easyJet is £95 return, so already the train is a fiver ahead. Add in £61 (not the mysterious £80 quoted by the study) for a very chunky 23kg checked-in case. That’s £156.

Now for the surface transport. Nobody in their right mind would ever get a minicab between central London and Gatwick: the A23 is the worst artery the capital has (and yes, I have checked).
With trains every few minutes during the day, and at least hourly at night, any sensible traveller will pay the £26 return fare on Thameslink, serving a series of city-centre stations including Blackfriars, Farringdon and St Pancras. Ditto between Edinburgh airport and the centre of the Scottish capital: the Airlink 100 bus takes about 30 minutes for a return fare of £8, a much better deal than the tram with its punitive airport surcharge. All told, the airline passenger with a heavy case pays £190. So the train triumphs, saving £100 (or 53 per cent, if you prefer percentages).

Yet I am troubled by all these assumptions. Price-sensitive passengers would surely head for Stansted and that Ryanair flight and take only a modest cabin bag. Adding the Stansted Express train and Edinburgh Airlink bus takes the total to £83 return, cheaper than rail.
Conversely, though, one huge advantage of the train is the fact that hardly anyone needs pay full fare on the railway. Children travel half-price; any adult with a child qualifies for a railcard, as do the under-31s and over-60s. Even during that annoying age range in the middle, you can team up with another traveller to buy a Two Together railcard that will save money even on one round trip.
“By choosing to take the train, you are helping the planet while also saving yourself from hidden costs for baggage and airport transfers,” says the Rail Delivery Group. I agree wholeheartedly. But it helps not to exaggerate the benefits – and to appreciate the benefits of competition.
 

Kite159

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The journey times in the table posted by zwk500 above coincide with a bank holiday and half term which is very likely a period where air fares are elevated, rail fares do not increase over a bank holiday weekend or school holidays in my experience. If they are including a taxi from airport to city centre, that is also an attempt to inflate the cost of air travel. If I wanted to get from my house to Gatwick, I could get a train for way less cost than a taxi, or if I got a lift from a friend it would cost me close to nothing. You really have to look at the underlying assumptions used in these comparisons since with suitable selective criteria you can project any conclusion you want.

Not when the prices are capped by flexible rate fares, all that happens is the cheaper advance tickets disappear or are priced so you save as little as 50p over the off-peak fare cap.

Just look at LNER, do away with the fare cap of the super off-peak single and fares have jumped, especially at busy times when the WCML is closed
 

HSTEd

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It's such a shame, because there are absolutely some valid points in there! But they are diluted by misleading and unfair comparisons.
Well the RDG's position seems to be that noone needs to be convinced of the value of rail and unconditional public and political support is assured.
They brush aside complaints by saying that the complainant is wrong and the Railway is clearly amazing in every respect.

That leads to production of bad propaganda like this, and they wonder why increasingly noone actually listens to them!

Remember, always, that the railway is always right.

EDIT:
Watered down because probably overly strong.
 
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Benjwri

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Well the RDG's position is essentially that there is an unlimited supply of money for the industry
I I don't think anyone, let alone RDG, believes there is an infinite supply of money for the rail industry of all things...
 

HSTEd

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I I don't think anyone, let alone RDG, believes there is an infinite supply of money for the rail industry of all things...
Perhaps you are right, although I am not entirely convinced given how tone deaf many of their publications are.
I have amended the previous post to make it somewhat less strident.
 
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Even if that's not what is said when asked directly, the general direction of most rail industry publications is 'more rail is better'. Given where we are on HS2, this position is somewhat debateable!
 

superkopite

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Rail is up to 17 times greener when travelling for business across Britain compared to flying.

Why the emphasis on business? Why would this be true for business travel but not leisure travel? Or is it just poorly worded?
 

Kite159

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Why the emphasis on business? Why would this be true for business travel but not leisure travel? Or is it just poorly worded?
The rail industry misses the income from those business travellers who will think nothing about paying for a full fat anytime return as they charge it as expenses.
 

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