Restore Your Railway - South Fylde

[LancasterRed]

I guess if it were more frequent it might see more use and attract users from the buses. There’s 3 buses an hour for most of the day on the Stagecoach 68 between Preston and Blackpool, and that more than doubles up between Blackpool and Lytham with all the additional services from Blackpool Transport.

The 61/68 have serious overcrowding problems in the summer.

Source: I work in Lytham

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It didnt get past the first stage of screening when the initial strategic business case was done (over two years ago).

Not least because there wasn‘t any missing railway to restore.

So out of interest, how did the Cornwall Metro linking Newquay to Falmouth get through? That also doesn't appear to involve restoring any missing railway.

 

[Llandudno]

The 61/68 have serious overcrowding problems in the summer.

Source: I work in Lytham

£2 per single bus journey and free travel for OAP’s probably helps!

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Dynamic loop between Lytham and Ansdell/St Anne’s to permit 2tph service

They should do Ormskirk/Colne, but Blackpool South electrification would be done much better with an extension from the end of the tramway at Starr Gate to Squires Gate station (very close to each other), then for the tramway to take the alignment of the branch line south towards Kirkham and Wesham - a proposal that another forum member referenced earlier.

It would mean a far more frequent, modern and good value service on most of the line, while freeing up a sought-after hourly path from Preston to Kirkham.

Bidirectional dynamic loop ( save restoring disused platforms) between St Annes and Lytham giving 2tph is the best solution, Ansdell and Fairhaven 1tph with 1 platform. The branch is occupied for 54 minutes + turn round at South Station, giving no time for late running = turning around at St Annes etc.
Tram would be slower, more expensive, extra change at Kirkham and Wesham, and probably Preston. Some have heavy suitcases.
I live in Blackpool South, by the time to get to BPN, and the cost, £3.50 for tram, £2 bus, it is well cheaper to go to Blackpool South. Blackpool Transport have reduced services, Normally use No 68 Stagecoach instead! Cheapest option is No 68 to Preston, but 90 minutes later!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Bidirectional dynamic loop ( save restoring disused platforms) between St Annes and Lytham giving 2tph is the best solution, Ansdell and Fairhaven 1tph with 1 platform. The branch is occupied for 54 minutes + turn round at South Station, giving no time for late running = turning around at St Annes etc.
Tram would be slower, more expensive, extra change at Kirkham and Wesham, and probably Preston. Some have heavy suitcases.
I live in Blackpool South, by the time to get to BPN, and the cost, £3.50 for tram, £2 bus, it is well cheaper to go to Blackpool South. Blackpool Transport have reduced services, Normally use No 68 Stagecoach instead! Cheapest option is No 68 to Preston, but 90 minutes later!

I agree that improving the rail service would be a much better option than effectively replacing it with a slow tram. But I think a passing loop is only half the problem: The other issue is that the line stops at Blackpool South, which is next to useless for the town centre. It seems to me fixing that should be a priority - and would likely vastly increase passenger numbers. The land is still largely free to rebuild the line back to a rebuilt Blackpool Central station, so it shouldn't be that difficult to do either. Making that part of the Restoring your Railways proposal would have also answered @Bald Rick 's point about a passing loop not counting as restoring any railway.

Of course if you did that, you'd need some additional work on capacity too. An extra mile or two of doubling at the Kirkham end would be needed to provide an hourly service keeping the current tight turnarounds, and that plus a passing loop to provide a half-hourly service.

 

[Blackpool boy]

The land is still largely free to rebuild the line back to a rebuilt Blackpool Central station, so it shouldn't be that difficult to do either.

Apart from the large multi storey car park that's there and then the big complex that has funding and planning permission to be built next to that

And where would you then send the coaches who use the car parks along the old route?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Bidirectional dynamic loop ( save restoring disused platforms) between St Annes and Lytham giving 2tph is the best solution, Ansdell and Fairhaven 1tph with 1 platform. The branch is occupied for 54 minutes + turn round at South Station, giving no time for late running = turning around at St Annes etc.
Tram would be slower, more expensive, extra change at Kirkham and Wesham, and probably Preston. Some have heavy suitcases.
I live in Blackpool South, by the time to get to BPN, and the cost, £3.50 for tram, £2 bus, it is well cheaper to go to Blackpool South. Blackpool Transport have reduced services, Normally use No 68 Stagecoach instead! Cheapest option is No 68 to Preston, but 90 minutes later!

Can the branch justify 2tph of train service with train running costs though?
Wouldn't a more frequent and cheaper tram (with through ticketing) be better than the current slow diesel branch which terminates in the back of beyond?

 

[HSTEd]

In my own view, as an outsider, the best option for this branch line is likely to be conversion to a tram route as far as Kirkham and Wesham, where it could connect with trains running in and out of Blackpool North.

From orbit, I can't really see why any long distance traffic would prefer South to North, which will always be the destination of the majority of trains.
I suppose a major question is where the tram would join the railway alignment.

Joining the tram at Squires Gate is operationally simplest for the trams, as it would just be an extension of existing services, but joining further north would allow much better journey times.

 

[Meerkat]

In my own view, as an outsider, the best option for this branch line is likely to be conversion to a tram route as far as Kirkham and Wesham, where it could connect with trains running in and out of Blackpool North.

From orbit, I can't really see why any long distance traffic would prefer South to North, which will always be the destination of the majority of trains.
I suppose a major question is where the tram would join the railway alignment.

Joining the tram at Squires Gate is operationally simplest for the trams, as it would just be an extension of existing services, but joining further north would allow much better journey times.

The south route goes much nearer the Pleasure Beach, water park, and football ground.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The south route goes much nearer the Pleasure Beach, water park, and football ground.

That and, for repeat visitors by train, the opportunity to avoid the Blackpool North station experience!

 

[HSTEd]

The south route goes much nearer the Pleasure Beach, water park, and football ground.

Despite this, Blackpool North does see nearly twenty times more passengers than Blackpool South, and probably something like or seven times the traffic to all the stations on the Blackpool South branch line combined.

I think frequency is decisive in this regard, and probably always will be.

EDIT:
If you extended the tramway from Starr Gate you'd probably be looking at 4-6 trams per hour from Kirkham and Wesham.

 

[lachlan]

The south route goes much nearer the Pleasure Beach, water park, and football ground.

Indeed I have used Blackpool Pleasure Beach station though unfortunately it's now poorly placed for the park entrance. Still, as I was changing at Preston anyway it avoided an extra change.

It's a toss up between that and going via North and the tram - the tram extension may make that route more attractive.

The line would be more useful if Blackpool Pleasure Beach Station was moved closer to Sandcastle and the Pleasure Beach entrance.

 

[The Planner]

Indeed I have used Blackpool Pleasure Beach station though unfortunately it's now poorly placed for the park entrance. Still, as I was changing at Preston anyway it avoided an extra change.

It's a toss up between that and going via North and the tram - the tram extension may make that route more attractive.

The line would be more useful if Blackpool Pleasure Beach Station was moved closer to Sandcastle and the Pleasure Beach entrance.

I think one of the pleasure beach hotels has taken over whatever parking space Pleasure Beach station had as well. You would need to move the station up to where the Bond St car park is.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Despite this, Blackpool North does see nearly twenty times more passengers than Blackpool South, and probably something like or seven times the traffic to all the stations on the Blackpool South branch line combined.

I think frequency is decisive in this regard, and probably always will be.

Plus Blackpool North actually being within walking distance of the town centre, and much shorter journey times due to only one intermediate stop after Kirkham for most trains. Blackpool South will always be more of a commuter route for people who live along the line plus people who specifically want the Pleasure Beach. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be a decent and useful railway with improvements to the infrastructure.

 

[randyrippley]

Rather than run the trams onto the Blackpool South line, it would make more sense to divert the South line onto Lytham Road somewhere around Station Road, street running north from there to the existing track and junction at the Lytham Rd/Promenade junction. Use the same tram/trains as intended for Fleetwood-Poulton-Kirkham-Preston.
Yes you'd end up with two parallel lines for a mile or so, but that's no problem: the tramway and rail line serve different needs.
It would need new track along Lytham Rd between Station Rd and Hopton Rd, but the road is wide enough there - trams historically used it, and the overheads already exist at the north end.
Benefits would be to link the two stations with a direct service and plug the Lytham Rd shops into the tramway network.
I'm assuming that the southern line tram/trains would continue north to North station

 

[lancastrian]

The aim was to install a passing loop to allow a half-hourly service to Blackpool South via Blackpool Pleasure Beach. Given that the line was double track then it technically is restoring the railway.

Surely the line should be doubled from before Lytham, to just past St. Annes. Plus Wrea Grea should be reopened. Especially since there has been some house building around the village. Also it needs to be electrified.

 

[Bald Rick]

This subject has been done at least three times before on this forum.

1) The branch has more traffic to the Lytham / St Annes area than Blackpool.
2) with the direct tram link to Blackpool North, it will be somewhat easier to get to the south shore via Blackpool North than it was
3) a direct link from Lytham / St Annes to Preston is essential.
4) a direct link from Lytham / St Annes to Blackpool is desirable, preferably central Blackpool

Therefore the answer, IMHO, is to connect the tram on to the South Fylde line just south of Pleasure Beach, and run it to Lytham. Truncate the existing South Fylde Line at St Annes. Dual track (one tram, one rail) between Lytham and St Annes.

Lytham St Annes retains direct services to Preston, with potential to double the frequency.
Lytham St Annes gains direct trams to Blackpool South, Central, North, Bispham, Cleveleys and Fleetwood, with potential for perhaps 4 trams per hour

Cost would be electrification of 9km trolley wire, maybe some power supply, 5km of tram standard track on the old formation, 400 m of new track on street at a junction near Pleasure beach, and station changes at Lytham, Andsell and St Annes. And some trams. Possibly a new tram station to serve NW St Annes. Maybe a passing loop in the same area. Somewhere in the region £50m - £100m.

It would be cheaper to operate than the current service, and lift revenue considerably.

 

[The Planner]

Surely the line should be doubled from before Lytham, to just past St. Annes. Plus Wrea Grea should be reopened. Especially since there has been some house building around the village. Also it needs to be electrified.

Doesnt exactly release a load of DMUs if it was.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This subject has been done at least three times before on this forum.

1) The branch has more traffic to the Lytham / St Annes area than Blackpool.
2) with the direct tram link to Blackpool North, it will be somewhat easier to get to the south shore via Blackpool North than it was
3) a direct link from Lytham / St Annes to Preston is essential.
4) a direct link from Lytham / St Annes to Blackpool is desirable, preferably central Blackpool

Therefore the answer, IMHO, is to connect the tram on to the South Fylde line just south of Pleasure Beach, and run it to Lytham. Truncate the existing South Fylde Line at St Annes. Dual track (one tram, one rail) between Lytham and St Annes.

Lytham St Annes retains direct services to Preston, with potential to double the frequency.
Lytham St Annes gains direct trams to Blackpool South, Central, North, Bispham, Cleveleys and Fleetwood, with potential for perhaps 4 trams per hour

Cost would be electrification of 9km trolley wire, maybe some power supply, 5km of tram standard track on the old formation, 400 m of new track on street at a junction near Pleasure beach, and station changes at Lytham, Andsell and St Annes. And some trams. Possibly a new tram station to serve NW St Annes. Maybe a passing loop in the same area. Somewhere in the region £50m - £100m.

It would be cheaper to operate than the current service, and lift revenue considerably.

Not a bad idea. What would you do with the Fleetwood line?

 

[The Planner]

Not a bad idea. What would you do with the Fleetwood line?

How long is it? 7 miles? Single line, one train in steam for 1tph.

 

[Meerkat]

Therefore the answer, IMHO, is to connect the tram on to the South Fylde line just south of Pleasure Beach, and run it to Lytham. Truncate the existing South Fylde Line at St Annes. Dual track (one tram, one rail) between Lytham and St Annes.

Is that a good use of a path on the Preston Blackpool line (if that is an issue??).

How long is it? 7 miles? Single line, one train in steam for 1tph.

That would be a worse service and more expensive than making it part of the tram, sharing the current line from south of Fleetwood to the loop.

My crayons itch to close the Blackpool South line and push the tram through Warton (for BAe) and into Preston along the docks line. Serve a lot of areas but Latham won’t like how slow it would be….

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My crayons itch to close the Blackpool South line and push the tram through Warton (for BAe) and into Preston along the docks line. Serve a lot of areas but Latham won’t like how slow it would be….

My crayons itch as well, but I'd use the train rather than the tram to improve the connections - linking Blackpool South to Blackpool North by tunnelling under the town centre, and then re-opening to Fleetwood, so you can get a train service running along the entire length of the Blackpool urban area. I think the problem with the tram - as you point out - is it's simply too slow for longer journeys. Train would be much better for that, as well as providing the direct service to Preston.

 

[The Planner]

That would be a worse service and more expensive than making it part of the tram, sharing the current line from south of Fleetwood to the loop.

No, I am on about the disused line from Poulton to Fleetwood.

 

[Meerkat]

No, I am on about the disused line from Poulton to Fleetwood.

So am I. Tram terminus at Poulton. Then along the old railway through Thornton, then joining the current tram to Fleetwood somewhere in the Broadwater/Heathfield road area.
Reduces the length to build by up to a mile, gets right into the middle of Fleetwood, and avoids trying to find room for (and fund) a Fleetwood station, and getting the trains along a trackbed that is now a road and roundabouts.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not a bad idea. What would you do with the Fleetwood line?

Do you mean the proposal to open the line to Fleetwood? I wouldnt build it.

Is that a good use of a path on the Preston Blackpool line (if that is an issue??).

If you mean doubling the South Fylde service (but only to/ from St Annes) then yes.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

1) The branch has more traffic to the Lytham / St Annes area than Blackpool.
2) with the direct tram link to Blackpool North, it will be somewhat easier to get to the south shore via Blackpool North than it was
3) a direct link from Lytham / St Annes to Preston is essential.
4) a direct link from Lytham / St Annes to Blackpool is desirable, preferably central Blackpool

Therefore the answer, IMHO, is to connect the tram on to the South Fylde line just south of Pleasure Beach, and run it to Lytham. Truncate the existing South Fylde Line at St Annes. Dual track (one tram, one rail) between Lytham and St Annes.

Lytham St Annes retains direct services to Preston, with potential to double the frequency.
Lytham St Annes gains direct trams to Blackpool South, Central, North, Bispham, Cleveleys and Fleetwood, with potential for perhaps 4 trams per hour

Cost would be electrification of 9km trolley wire, maybe some power supply, 5km of tram standard track on the old formation, 400 m of new track on street at a junction near Pleasure beach, and station changes at Lytham, Andsell and St Annes. And some trams. Possibly a new tram station to serve NW St Annes. Maybe a passing loop in the same area. Somewhere in the region £50m - £100m.

It would be cheaper to operate than the current service, and lift revenue considerably.

There are plenty of Blackpool buses going through St Annes, Lytham and onto Preston. Blackpool Transport have cut their service (No 11 Lytham) to 1/2 hourly and 1 bus per hour in evening
When crowds of football fans travel to Blackpool FC - Preston North End etc travel to Bloomfield Road the Police escort fans with horses from Blackpool South to the grounds and vv.
A lot more problems changing at Lytham, or lead them from Blackpool North through Town Centre!!
Blackpool South has a lot of potential with 2tph. A huge car park for commuters travelling to work by rail. (Manchester is in the area for those looking for work)
The service since covid has deteriorated with several trains cancelled which then becomes a 2 or 3 hour service. (Driver shortage?)

 

[The Planner]

There are plenty of Blackpool buses going through St Annes, Lytham and onto Preston. Blackpool Transport have cut their service (No 11 Lytham) to 1/2 hourly and 1 bus per hour in evening
When crowds of football fans travel to Blackpool FC - Preston North End etc travel to Bloomfield Road the Police escort fans with horses from Blackpool South to the grounds and vv.
A lot more problems changing at Lytham, or lead them from Blackpool North through Town Centre!!
Blackpool South has a lot of potential with 2tph. A huge car park for commuters travelling to work by rail. (Manchester is in the area for those looking for work)
The service since covid has deteriorated with several trains cancelled which then becomes a 2 or 3 hour service. (Driver shortage?)

A Blackpool South service is highly unlikely to go past Preston, and even then it wont be towards Manchester. Anyone looking for that journey will still need to use North.

 

[AlastairFraser]

How long is it? 7 miles? Single line, one train in steam for 1tph.

The station would be miles outside Fleetwood because the northern section of Amounderness Way took the trackbed into central Fleetwood. Much better to extend the tram from a junction at Lindel Road stop and down to a separate but close terminus at Poulton le Fylde. This would also mean more stops would be viable economically - e.g. Cala Gran for the big holiday park, Carleton etc.

Do you mean the proposal to open the line to Fleetwood? I wouldnt build it.

Even as a tram?

 

[Bald Rick]

The station would be miles outside Fleetwood because the northern section of Amounderness Way took the trackbed into central Fleetwood. Much better to extend the tram from a junction at Lindel Road stop and down to a separate but close terminus at Poulton le Fylde. This would also mean more stops would be viable economically - e.g. Cala Gran for the big holiday park, Carleton etc.


Even as a tram?

No. waste of money.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No. waste of money.

The local roads are **** and congested - it's probably either that or spending a lot of cash to dual the rest of the A585...