Are franchisees suffering from livery fatigue?

[sprinterguy]

Expanding this conversation out from the discussion of the new Transpennine Express livery; despite the fact that it only concerns "what colour the trains are painted", I increasingly wonder whether franchisees are suffering from livery fatigue?

The liveries put forward and adopted by the first round of franchisees following privatisation were, in the round, both bold and individualistic, as the operators behind them seemed to feel, in the happy haze of privatisation fever, that a striking image would be beneficial to their business.

In the second round, post millennium, the admittance came that you might as well livery your trains in the house colours of your owning group, as regular users don't care who runs the trains as long as they've got someone recognisable they can strike out against when things go wrong.

There's potentially an interim third stage that suggests that, with the merry-go-round of franchising, you can invent as ridiculous a name and livery as you want, such as "One", but it'll be so shortlived that it'll barely be remembered when it all changes again.

And currently it feels that we occupy a fourth stage, where the franchises have been chopped and changed around so frequently that the majority of franchisees seem to be happy that, outside of the cab ends, they might as well leave their trains a pale grey colour as it doesn't matter what image is displayed to the passenger as it'll be a completely different operator in charge of the franchise in a few years anyway.

Feel free to discuss.

 

[LLivery]

1st stage had some great liveries - MML, VT, GNER, GWR, WAGN multicoloured even the altered NSE-SWT. Problem with parent group branding was of course it was giving them (apart from VT) awful PR.

The thing is now, I think we've gone into a much smarter, "professional" stage. GWR, ScotRail, SN, GTR, TPX, which are, whether you like them or not, quite smart liveries. I'm expecting a very different iconic GER/Anglian livery in the next franchise. By the way, honestly, I think VTEC is the worst livery thats graced the railways since the Northern 321s.

 

[47802]

Well we seem to gradually moving to standardised liveries for the franchises which wont change much when the franchise holder changes as per the Scotland model, long overdue in my view.

Yes I would agree that VTEC Livery is dire

 

[sprinterguy]

Well we seem to gradually moving to standardised liveries for the franchises which wont change much when the franchise holder changes as per the Scotland model, long overdue in my view.

I haven't seen much evidence of this within England, outside of the need for the Northern Rail franchisee to utilise the "Northern" title within the public name, but with no need to adhere to a strict livery regime.

It was a common misconception that the DOR East Coast livery was adopted in order to provide a base for a common livery regardless of which company was chosen to next operate the franchise, and surely the bland "GTR" scheme is the only one that has been selected by the DfT on this basis within England?

 

[Agent_c]

Yes I would agree that VTEC Livery is dire

I'm suprised Coke hasn't sued them, as it makes their trains look like rolling coke cans...

 

[talltim]

I'm suprised Coke hasn't sued them, as it makes their trains look like rolling coke cans...

Rolling Virgin cola cans, surely

 

[jopsuk]

east anglia has had a particularly bad time of it, and that's down to National Express. They had just about got the fleet in standardised 'one' livery (except for some of the diesels- and to this day Anglia livery persists!) when a high level decree went out that everything NX ran was to receive the "dot to dot" livery of white with silver diagonal lines with dots at the end and silver end parts. And the interim for trains (the coaches were already white, so that was easy, and NX West Midlands got a variant) was with the white stripe.

Anyway, they'd set about applying that and were part finished when the NXEC franchise collapsed. At that point they abandoned, group-wide, the dot-2-dot livery but still needed to re-livery NXEA units so went to just the dark blue doors + plain white (which is what the 379s were then delivered in)

Enter AGA. Who were only supposed to have the franchise under two years. They decided to keep going but with red doors.

Then realised they were going to be hanging around a bit longer, so have added the dark grey window band and light grey lower body section.

Then the inner suburban GA services got sectioned off to TfL and LOROL who have their own (mainly white) liveries.

It's been a mess. Nowhere else comes close.

 

[adrock1976]

Mentioning past liveries, I remember in the second half of the 1980s that the West Midlands PTE first branded local train services as Midline, also accompanied with promotional products too.

Needless to say when looking back, it was not at all very pleasing on the eye. An example is here in an image:
http://www.miac.org.uk/midline.html

 

[jopsuk]

That Midline livery is quite nice, the branding... less so.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Perhaps the TOC's have come to the conclusion that unless people have an active interest in trains they are not going to care what colour the train is painted in.

 

[387star]

east anglia has had a particularly bad time of it, and that's down to National Express. They had just about got the fleet in standardised 'one' livery (except for some of the diesels- and to this day Anglia livery persists!) when a high level decree went out that everything NX ran was to receive the "dot to dot" livery of white with silver diagonal lines with dots at the end and silver end parts. And the interim for trains (the coaches were already white, so that was easy, and NX West Midlands got a variant) was with the white stripe.

Anyway, they'd set about applying that and were part finished when the NXEC franchise collapsed. At that point they abandoned, group-wide, the dot-2-dot livery but still needed to re-livery NXEA units so went to just the dark blue doors + plain white (which is what the 379s were then delivered in)

Enter AGA. Who were only supposed to have the franchise under two years. They decided to keep going but with red doors.

Then realised they were going to be hanging around a bit longer, so have added the dark grey window band and light grey lower body section.

Then the inner suburban GA services got sectioned off to TfL and LOROL who have their own (mainly white) liveries.

It's been a mess. Nowhere else comes close.

don't forget even abellio changed the logo and name from greater anglia to abellio greater anglia... which seems rather odd given the policy to otherwise move away from corporate identity

Remind me when the greater anglia franchise award is due can't be long at all?

1996-2004: First Great Eastern, Anglia Railways and West Anglia Great Northern. The latter two had owning group changes... National Express took WAGN from prism with a new purple livery while Anglia was bought by First Group as it seemed so likely at the time they would win....
2004-2008: 'One'... at least two varients of livery and surely the worst livery and name since privatisation. Although the livery looks fine with the base blue and black band ignoring the awful green doors...
2008-2012: National Express East Anglia
2012-2014: Greater Anglia
2014-2016: Abellio Greater Anglia

arriva trains wales is also continuing the corporate identity trend as is south west trains.


Interestingly stagecoach do not use their name on SWT and EMT but the livery is so obviously stagecoach

Another point to make is way back in 2007 Arriva made a business decision not to use standard Arriva branding on Crosscountry

I am skeptical about the DFT livery business

Thameslink is a Gov Contract so makes full sense there

Yet First tell us GWR was their idea? which judging by their bus identites may be true? yet those strange diagonal stripes re-appear...

 

[47802]

I haven't seen much evidence of this within England, outside of the need for the Northern Rail franchisee to utilise the "Northern" title within the public name, but with no need to adhere to a strict livery regime.

It was a common misconception that the DOR East Coast livery was adopted in order to provide a base for a common livery regardless of which company was chosen to next operate the franchise, and surely the bland "GTR" scheme is the only one that has been selected by the DfT on this basis within England?

I was under the impression that that things were at supposed to be heading that way with the new Northern, TPE franchises and GWR rebranding.

 

[tbtc]

I haven't seen much evidence of this within England, outside of the need for the Northern Rail franchisee to utilise the "Northern" title within the public name, but with no need to adhere to a strict livery regime.

It was a common misconception that the DOR East Coast livery was adopted in order to provide a base for a common livery regardless of which company was chosen to next operate the franchise, and surely the bland "GTR" scheme is the only one that has been selected by the DfT on this basis within England?

Agreed.

We've seen VTEC introduce their own "red" scheme, instead of the "DOR have a bland livery so it'll be a simple base colour for the new TOC" idea.

We've seen TPE introduce a zany new colour scheme (replacing their previous colourful livery).

We're seeing pictures that suggest that Northern will introduce a predominantly white livery (albeit they won't be painting their 142s/ 144s/ 153s/ 321s/ 322s in it).

I think that some enthusiasts have fallen into the trap of believing what they want to believe, in respect of "all new TOCs will keep the same simple base colours as before and just put a discreet logo on the side of the unit" idea.

Do people honestly think that, if First win the "South Western" franchise, they will keep the same red/ white/ blue/ orange colours that Stagecoach have had for the past twenty years?

(then we see the same enthusiasts complain that liveries like South Eastern are too dull and wouldn't it be nice if we went back to the colourful days of sectorisation when BR seemed to paint everything in a different livery)

 

[47802]

Agreed.

We've seen VTEC introduce their own "red" scheme, instead of the "DOR have a bland livery so it'll be a simple base colour for the new TOC" idea.

We've seen TPE introduce a zany new colour scheme (replacing their previous colourful livery).

We're seeing pictures that suggest that Northern will introduce a predominantly white livery (albeit they won't be painting their 142s/ 144s/ 153s/ 321s/ 322s in it).

I think that some enthusiasts have fallen into the trap of believing what they want to believe, in respect of "all new TOCs will keep the same simple base colours as before and just put a discreet logo on the side of the unit" idea.

Do people honestly think that, if First win the "South Western" franchise, they will keep the same red/ white/ blue/ orange colours that Stagecoach have had for the past twenty years?

No I don't expect they will but isn't that supposed to be the point of non First liveries such as the GWR livery going forward that it wont change at the next franchise renewal.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Perhaps the TOC's have come to the conclusion that unless people have an active interest in trains they are not going to care what colour the train is painted in.

^This^

And the manufacturers of paint and vinyl of course.

I remember in BR days many a loco had huge chunks of paint missing by the time it got called to works for overhaul and repaint. At least the contemporary fixation on "identity" leads to external surfaces being kept in good condition.

 

[jopsuk]

South West Trains is certainly a good example of the opposite of (Greater) Anglia. Since privatisation they've had a single operator. Post-privatisation they used a variation of the existing NSE livery transferred into corporate colours. New stock and then refurbishment of the old stock brought the current liveries- even the recent variation on a 159 was just that, a bit of fiddling.

 

[sprinterguy]

east anglia has had a particularly bad time of it, and that's down to National Express. They had just about got the fleet in standardised 'one' livery (except for some of the diesels- and to this day Anglia livery persists!) when a high level decree went out that everything NX ran was to receive the "dot to dot" livery of white with silver diagonal lines with dots at the end and silver end parts.

South West Trains is certainly a good example of the opposite of (Greater) Anglia. Since privatisation they've had a single operator. Post-privatisation they used a variation of the existing NSE livery transferred into corporate colours. New stock and then refurbishment of the old stock brought the current liveries- even the recent variation on a 159 was just that, a bit of fiddling.

Agreed on both counts. South West Trains must be the antithesis to the hotch-potch of current and now irrelevant previous liveries evident across Greater Anglia; an example of one of the, admittedly peripheral/trivial, benefits of retaining one long term incumbent operator (Chiltern being another example, having only recently updated their long standing brand to incorporate the "Mainline" livery).

What I like about the South West Trains scheme is that, within the corporate style, it differentiates clearly between commuter, suburban and long distance services, which IMO communicates far more practical information to the passenger than who the operator is in areas where one operator predominates.

 

[CosherB]

So we'll come full circle and have lots of BR grey and blue again?

 

[sprinterguy]

Perhaps the TOC's have come to the conclusion that unless people have an active interest in trains they are not going to care what colour the train is painted in.

Indeed. On Britian's fragmented railway however I feel that it is important that operators differentiate their trains from one another's for the benefit of passengers with TOC specific tickets, even if the colours themselves don't matter. Otherwise, on a single operator railway or if the DfT were to stipulate one standard corporate image across all TOCs, as I've mentioned above I feel it would be more important to differentiate between what are commuter, regional and long distance services, as occurs with the likes of DB and other national operators in continental Europe.

As such I feel that South West Trains have succeeded in marrying together both ideals, both advertising who the operator is (although of course neither SWT or EMT make any direct reference to their parent company, Stagecoach) as well as differentiating between different types of services.
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So we'll come full circle and have lots of BR grey and blue again?

For the average passenger it probably wouldn't be of any consequence if we did, although speaking as an enthusiast, I would hope that the railway could come up with something a bit more imaginative than that (although the current wash of grey liveries don't fill me with much optimism on that count )!
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I was under the impression that that things were at supposed to be heading that way with the new Northern, TPE franchises and GWR rebranding.

The invitation to tender for the Northern franchise does contain a stipulation that the brand should be usable by successor franchises, but there is no such stipulation in the Transpennine ITT: As far as I am aware both the new GWR and TPE liveries are both First sanctioned and designed schemes specific to that company as First moves away from a single corporate image (a cyclical process for most major public transport operators, most readily apparent in the bus industry).

 

[Deepgreen]

If a colour scheme/livery can engender a sense of respect and confidence (and some will say it can), then the GWR green scheme would seem to fit the bill. I happen to like it very much, although I carry no such torch for the TOC as a whole! What is quite interesting is the startling change from the previous (FGW) livery, which I thought was garish and cheap-looking. Thameslink must surely take the prize for both the most changes to liveries and the least inspiring.

 

[jopsuk]

Virgin West Coast is another good "just leave it alone" example, but again, one operator in 20 years. They had an interim livery for inherited BR stock, brought in another for brand new (along with Virgin XC). Minor fiddles only (eg doors).

Compare with GWR. The initial "merlin" livery, they the addition of the gold stripe after the First buyout, then the First group corporate version of the fag packet, then the various iterations on Dynamic Lines and into plain blue, with various power car variations. And now green. And that's just the High Speed Services, which have been single operator (First was a partner at launch) since the beginning. And the same stock!

ECML is different, that's the 4th operator.

 

[urpert]

Thameslink must surely take the prize for both the most changes to liveries and the least inspiring.

Agreed - it's amusing how similar the current 'grey undercoat' livery is to the much-reviled 'battleship' livery:

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/pics/dl_thames.jpg

The original WAGN livery on the refurbished 317s is still one of my favourites from the early days. That refurbishment is also one of the best that's ever been done.

 

[cool110]

Then there's Merseyrail with the whole "Let's make each side a different colour" thing going on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then there's Merseyrail with the whole "Let's make each side a different colour" thing going on.

Yeah, that I find a bit odd. Though I do like both schemes.

 

[AndrewE]

So we'll come full circle and have lots of BR grey and blue again?

I was going to suggest a mature, sober set of colour schemes that represented the National network and might inspire confidence in customers, (you know, standing for things like reliability, trains continuing to take you to your workplace after you had committed to buying a house on the line, distinguishing between inner-suburban, semi-fast and Inter-City etc. etc) and no gimcrack garish short-lived rubbish...

... but you beat me to it! (and a BT internet outage delayed me too)

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Agreed - it's amusing how similar the current 'grey undercoat' livery is to the much-reviled 'battleship' livery:

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/pics/dl_thames.jpg

The original WAGN livery on the refurbished 317s is still one of my favourites from the early days. That refurbishment is also one of the best that's ever been done.

As a warship, I like battleship grey!

 

[Bletchleyite]

We did get BR blue and grey again (in reverse) with the original West Coast Desiro livery the 350/1s had before LM came on the scene.

On that note, the Silverlink "FlamingBananaLink" livery was quite long-lived - and was one of the first to have modern style contrasting doors.

 

[jopsuk]

of the current Thameslink and Great Northern liveries my favourite is on the 317s- which is the AGA 317 livery but with light blue doors. It's really quite smart looking, and would probably work well with the pink doors of some TL units. It would suit the 365s.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I miss the old Regional Railways scheme... At least it might be making a bit of a come back on a pacer or two

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I miss the old Regional Railways scheme... At least it might be making a bit of a come back on a pacer or two

It'd be nice to see the original 142 liveries come back for the last few months that we have to endure them. GMPTE orange and brown, Provincial blue, "skipper" brown... Need to go back to 4-fold doors for the true "old school" look, though.