My idea for re-establishing Cross Country Service To Brighton

[tbtc]

my service is therefore quicker, cheaper and more convenient

That's great. If the market for people leaving Brighton at half six in the morning and heading to Leamington Spa were a big one. But its not.

If you want to do more "Brighton should have a better link to..." threads then I could see the logic in Reading (via Basingstoke or Gatwick), but not by pinching scarce Voyagers from the XC core.

A bigger help, and simpler solution IMO would be to extend the Southern Milton Keynes - Clapham Jct/South Croydon service to Brighton.

I think that much more viable service would be a direct Brighton to Birmingham service via the WLL and WCML.

Agreed - a Brighton to Birmingham service would be A Good Thing - and it's much more likely to happen (given that its going to be easier to order additional EMUs for this type of service than it is to order additional Voyagers for XC)

 

[Ivo]

Agreed - a Brighton to Birmingham service would be A Good Thing - and it's much more likely to happen (given that its going to be easier to order additional EMUs for this type of service than it is to order additional Voyagers for XC)

And as has been said before, as long as LM and SN exist it would be far easier to run a combined service given they have the same owners...

 

[Eagle]

...as long as LM and SN exist...

So until 2015 then? (Remember that Southern is being merged into TLGN, not the other way round.)

 

[Drsatan]

And as has been said before, as long as LM and SN exist it would be far easier to run a combined service given they have the same owners...

Assuming they sort out ticketing (it's been said before by a Freedom of Severn & Solent Rover isn't valid on either LM nor SN) first.

 

[Ivo]

So until 2015 then? (Remember that Southern is being merged into TLGN, not the other way round.)

If it started in December it would give everyone enough time to determine if it is actually worthwhile, considering it would probably eliminate one of LM's 3tph between BHM and EUS without actually serving EUS...

 

[Eagle]

And what would it eliminate on the BML? I understand there's a shortage of paths there.

 

[andykn]

I always thought a good way of doing that would be a joint SN/LM service to provide the additional dual voltage stock required, and run it as 8 car throughout, to avoid the perceived problem that the current single unit would be a bad use of Brighton line capacity.

So some of the trains would use 350/1s all the way through, IYSWIM. In principle you could then send the trains all the way through to Rugby or even New St, but they'd probably still suffer from the slow times via Northampton..

I don't think the platforms at the new Imperial Wharf and Shepherds Bush stations will take 8 coaches.

I've heard that the West London Line service south of East Croydon was stopped because Southern wanted to run other services.

 

[Eagle]

I don't think the platforms at the new Imperial Wharf and Shepherds Bush stations will take 8 coaches.

They're being extended to take 8 coaches, as specified by Network Rail and TfL.

 

[Ivo]

And what would it eliminate on the BML? I understand there's a shortage of paths there.

The new third Brighton Express path (the one that isn't an Express) I guess. Would be very difficult to coordinate the two though, especially paths on the WLL aren't exactly easy to come by should the existing path be unsuitable.

 

[SussexSpotter]

The new third Brighton Express path (the one that isn't an Express) I guess. Would be very difficult to coordinate the two though, especially paths on the WLL aren't exactly easy to come by should the existing path be unsuitable.

Could they opperate an Eastbourne - Milton Keynes or Birmingham service using one of the current Victoria paths, perhaps it could join with a Littlehampton portion at Haywards Heath? Although both Littlehampton and Eastbourne would have to sacrifice a Victoria service, it would provide a whole new journey opportunity as well as still providing a connection to Victoria at Clapham Junction. That would be even more use to me as it would be on my doorstep seeing as I live near Eastbourne. Considering how popular Eastbourne is as a tourist destination in the Summer and also serving Lewes which is the county town of Sussex. Then there's also the West Coastway market and passengers for Brighton could easily change at Hove and board the shuttle service.

 

[andykn]

They're being extended to take 8 coaches, as specified by Network Rail and TfL.

Good news. I suppose there was no way of foreseeing that when they were built all those many, er, months ago.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Anyone think 1 perhaps 2 daily Cross Country services to/from Brighton and Newcastle would be a good idea.

I travel occassionally from Newcastle - Brighton and back in a day and used to make that journey very frequently.
But I'd much rather take East Coast to Kings Cross then FCC (Thames link) to Brighton.
As others have said, there appears to be a higher actual demand for other 'fantasy' services and it would erode the fleet's current capabilities to extend it to cover additonal routes.
Is this suggestion actually based on any research?

 

[andykn]

The point is that some people like through services to avoid changing, but once the increase in journey time exceeds an hour, not very many, and certainly not enough to justify causing overcrowding elsewhere. What percentage of Plymouth and stations to Cheltenham to Edinburgh passengers change on to the VT services at New St to save an hour ?

My impression of cross country services in general, particularly those that used to go through Kensington, was that they were very popular with old people who were spending the day travelling and didn't want to have to change multiple times to cross London.

 

[Eagle]

Could they opperate an Eastbourne - Milton Keynes or Birmingham service using one of the current Victoria paths, perhaps it could join with a Littlehampton portion at Haywards Heath? Although both Littlehampton and Eastbourne would have to sacrifice a Victoria service, it would provide a whole new journey opportunity as well as still providing a connection to Victoria at Clapham Junction. That would be even more use to me as it would be on my doorstep seeing as I live near Eastbourne. Considering how popular Eastbourne is as a tourist destination in the Summer and also serving Lewes which is the county town of Sussex. Then there's also the West Coastway market and passengers for Brighton could easily change at Hove and board the shuttle service.

Eastbourne is nowhere near as much of a pull as Brighton (and as we've shown the market for through services to Brighton is uncertain at best). Also you'd be halving Eastbourne's through London services in favour of something that would be far less used.

 

[Ivo]

I think it might be time to call it a day on this idea.

There is no doubt that some people would benefit from the route. But enough to justify its costs, much less the use of stock that is already pushed hard by its inadequate capacity? And if you counter this by saying that only the Guildford runs would run to Brighton, there would be no benefit. It's not as though it's a regular XC diversion is it? Or a cost-effective way of travelling from Brighton to the north? Or even cheap to run (you would probably be carrying more gallons of diesel than people)? Sorry - I don't think so.

Reading via the North Downs line might be feasible to improve Brighton's connections, especially if the North Downs line was electrified, but that's about it.

 

[SussexSpotter]

My impression of cross country services in general, particularly those that used to go through Kensington, was that they were very popular with old people who were spending the day travelling and didn't want to have to change multiple times to cross London.

Exactly, my point exactly, not everyone wants to change trains and travel via London! Since the Brighton Cross Country services have been withdrawn how many people has the inconvenienced? Quite a lot I would think.

See this article from the Argus:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3767204.Anger_as_direct_rail_service_to_Brighton_is_cut/

There is definetly a Cross Country market to Brighton that needs to be tapped into again.

So perhaps my suggestion of opperating the daily XC service via Havant isn't exactly that practical, but at the end of the day it's just a suggestion to provide some improvement to what there is in Sussex at the moment.

Sussex rail services were ranked one of the worst in the country in recent 'Which' survey and to be honest i'm not really that suprised.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/9610254.Why_do_we_have_the_worst_trains_/

The way the service down this way currently opperates is so impractical and innefficiant it means everyone having to cram on slow overcrowded services as well as those dreadful Coastway 313's to get to where they want to go.

From my own observation the Off-Peak Brighton - Bedford services should be 2 per hour and the other 2 cut back to Three Bridges. I've been on some of these services and witnessed that they are practically empty between Brighton and Three Bridges during the Off-Peak period, and only really start getting busy from East Croydon onwards. It's a waste of scarce paths that could be better used by Southern or another TOC maybe First Great Western to extend the hourly Gatwick - Reading service to Brighton?


Nearly all the long distance direct links that provided some extra capacity and an alternative were axed by the Department for Transport a few years ago.

There's Gatwick and Brighton that are missing out on vital rail links, the Thameslink network expansion in 2015 will provide some improved links to places like Cambridge, Peterborough and Kings Lynn to the South Coast, but there is definetly need to get a fast hourly service to Birmingham and Manchester down this way, as well as the 4th Brighton Express. All that needs to be done is have a proper meeting between the TOC's and Network Rail and negotiate on more efficient use of pathings to develop a new timetable that will allow for these services to opperate in the new franchises. I think the merge between the Thameslink and Southern franchise should help get the 4th Brighton Express, seeing as it was FCC who objected to it opperating as they would have a smaller share of the BML revenue.....the excuse about peformance was just a cover story :roll:

 

[tsr]

From my own observation the Off-Peak Brighton - Bedford services should be 2 per hour and the other 2 cut back to Three Bridges. I've been on some of these services and witnessed that they are practically empty between Brighton and Three Bridges during the Off-Peak period, and only really start getting busy from East Croydon onwards. It's a waste of scarce paths that could be better used by Southern or another TOC maybe First Great Western to extend the hourly Gatwick - Reading service to Brighton?

What about the following?

1tph Milton Keynes Central - Brighton (fast)/Bognor Regis (fast); semifast to and dividing at Three Bridges
1tph Bedford - Portsmouth Harbour/Southampton Central; dividing at Barnham
1tph Victoria - Brighton (fast)/Bognor Regis (slow); semifast to and dividing at Three Bridges
1tph Victoria - Portsmouth Harbour/Southampton Central; dividing at Barnham
1tph Oxford/Banbury-Brighton via Redhill/Gatwick Airport
1tph Reading-Maidstone via Redhill

Utopian, I know...

 

[Clip]

Just out of interest on this subject/fantasy - could they not send up a voyager through the Thameslink core or is the gauge all wrong?

But theres a fantasy for you.

 

[Eagle]

Just out of interest on this subject/fantasy - could they not send up a voyager through the Thameslink core or is the gauge all wrong?

And then where? Leicester?

 

[Clip]

And then where? Leicester?

Well seeing as the OP was talking about a Brighton to Newcastle service I wouldve thought that Newcastle being the final destination would not needed to be added to my posting.

 

[Eagle]

Well seeing as the OP was talking about a Brighton to Newcastle service I wouldve thought that Newcastle being the final destination would not needed to be added to my posting.

Could be interesting (presumably as an extension of EMT Sheffield services, rather than XC), but like hell you're going to get paths through the Snow Hill tunnel. :P

 

[route:oxford]

A bigger help, and simpler solution IMO would be to extend the Southern Milton Keynes - Clapham Jct/South Croydon service to Brighton.

Oxford-MK-Clapham Junction-Brighton sounds even better*.

I'd estimate say 2h45m for the direct journey.




*More so for the benefit of useful part journeys, but a direct service would also be beneficial.

 

[Pumbaa]

A bigger help, and simpler solution IMO would be to extend the Southern Milton Keynes - Clapham Jct/South Croydon service to Brighton.

I always thought a good way of doing that would be a joint SN/LM service to provide the additional dual voltage stock required, and run it as 8 car throughout, to avoid the perceived problem that the current single unit would be a bad use of Brighton line capacity.

So some of the trains would use 350/1s all the way through, IYSWIM. In principle you could then send the trains all the way through to Rugby or even New St, but they'd probably still suffer from the slow times via Northampton..

I think that much more viable service would be a direct Brighton to Birmingham service via the WLL and WCML. Using 220/221 Units end to end timings would be approx 2h30m and calling at the following stations :

BTN -> GTW -> ECR -> CLJ -> KPA -> SPB -> WFJ -> MKC -> RUG -> COV -> BHI -> BHM.

Obviously this is theoretical and would be dependent on availability of paths on the WLL, WCML and BML.

Just my two pence.

I always thought (and I think I suggested it last time) was a dual service. The current WCML > WLL > Southern hourly service gets turned into;

1) hourly Northampton (north thereof) > MK > Clapham (LM)
2) hourly Watford > Clapham > Brighton (SN)

Provides much needed capacity on the WLL and boosts frequency, as well as good connections.

 

[SussexSpotter]

I always thought (and I think I suggested it last time) was a dual service. The current WCML > WLL > Southern hourly service gets turned into;

1) hourly Northampton (north thereof) > MK > Clapham (LM)
2) hourly Watford > Clapham > Brighton (SN)

Provides much needed capacity on the WLL and boosts frequency, as well as good connections.

That sounds good to me, and could probably work, anything that will avoid the need to change trains to get to Milton Keynes, also finding a seat by the time it gets to Clapham is almost impossible, you'd be lucky to get the luggage rack

 

[OxtedL]

I've found the Selhurst-WLL services are actually rather well used. Whether this is because they run through is anyone's guess, but it would at least make me second guess whether or not the WLL services are most useful going all the way to Brighton. Most places on the network require a change at Clapham J regardless of whether or not the train goes to Brighton, and I think it could be that Clapham is as good a place as any.

If you're travelling further afield than Watford, you're still very likely to go through Euston if you're coming from anywhere South simply because this directs you through the corridors where frequent services exist (London terminal routes and tube) and it's thus quite convenient, particularly for infrequent travellers.

 

[tbtc]

I've found the Selhurst-WLL services are actually rather well used. Whether this is because they run through is anyone's guess, but it would at least make me second guess whether or not the WLL services need to go all the way to Brighton. Most places on the network require a change at Clapham J regardless of whether or not the train goes to Brighton, and I think it could be that Clapham is as good a place as any.

I think that Westfield has helped attract people (who might have gone into central London before). With the Central Line interchange there it's maybe an easier way to get into central London than Victoria (for some destinations)?

 

[OxtedL]

I can't imagine that a particularly large number of places in Central London are made more accessible by the Central line at Shepherd's Bush, particularly as the service isn't quite frequent enough in London terms for that to be a common choice. I'm prepared to be surprised though, if you can find some journeys where you can make big time savings.

Westfield is definitely a pull, the proportion of people using Shepherd's Bush who are stereotypically female and bearing shopping bags must be ~80% at certain times. Not that I'm encouraging any stereotypes, mind.

 

[Pumbaa]

If you're travelling further afield than Watford, you're still very likely to go through Euston if you're coming from anywhere South simply because this directs you through the corridors where frequent services exist (London terminal routes and tube) and it's thus quite convenient, particularly for infrequent travellers.

WC south are a massive commuter hub. Unless coming from MK itself, travelling on the SN service to Clapham is quicker than going to Euston and then tube to Victoria > Clapham > Change. There is a massive commuter flow Leighton Buzzard/Berkhamsted/Hemel/Watford to Olympia and Clapham. The train completely empties at Clapham as its quicker to take a fast service to Brighton or wherever, but all the old dears and whatnot would stay on to Croydon. On the return, the trains would empty gradually at Watford/Hemel/Berko/Leighton.

Coming from MK is quicker to travel fast to Euston admittedly.

I speak with experience - it was my commute for almost 2 years they are well loaded and could do with an increase in frequency over a doubling in length.

 

[swt_passenger]

I speak with experience - it was my commute for almost 2 years they are well loaded and could do with an increase in frequency over a doubling in length.

The London and SE RUS does propose both though, ie 2 tph at 8 car length. The factor left open for discussion sems to be whether to run the second train further north than Watford Jn...

 

[Bald Rick]

There's Gatwick and Brighton that are missing out on vital rail links, the Thameslink network expansion in 2015 will provide some improved links to places like Cambridge, Peterborough and Kings Lynn to the South Coast, but there is definetly need to get a fast hourly service to Birmingham and Manchester down this way, as well as the 4th Brighton Express. All that needs to be done is have a proper meeting between the TOC's and Network Rail and negotiate on more efficient use of pathings to develop a new timetable that will allow for these services to opperate in the new franchises. I think the merge between the Thameslink and Southern franchise should help get the 4th Brighton Express, seeing as it was FCC who objected to it opperating as they would have a smaller share of the BML revenue.....the excuse about peformance was just a cover story :roll:

1) You won't see Kings Lynn trains going south of Kings X
2) If any TOC wanted to run a cross country service to Brighton, they would be welcome in such a meeting. But they don't.
3) There are already 4 Brighton Expresses; 2 to Vic with 2 stops, 2 to London Bridge and beyond with 3 stops. Don't be surprised if the franchise merger sees fewer trains Brighton to London (my opinion) - at the very least there will be a bias towards London Bridge and Thameslink as the Central London connections will be superb post 2018.
4) There was no cover story. It was performance reasons. The slightest incident on the Brighton Main Line is difficult to recover from today; the timetable is squeaking at the pips.