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Great Western IEP order - Are there too many Bi-modes ?

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CC 72100

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You seem to be asking about frequencies, not the actual timetable, so you could always follow the links to the DfT website in the GW ITT thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69167

It's the 'train service requirement' that you need.

Thanks :)

I see that the requirement is a minimum of 20 trains a weekday London to Exeter, of these 14 must extend to Plymouth, 6 of those onto Penzance. I haven't done any of the maths on that, but Exeter to Plymouth seems roughly the same as now, although Penzance would stand to lose 3 trains from the current 9. (Presumably replaced by a unit that connects to the Plymouth - Pad). It would therefore suggest that 6 trains per weekday would terminate at Exeter perhaps?

So really I've answered my own question. Cheers for the link :D
 
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swt_passenger

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Thanks :)

I see that the requirement is a minimum of 20 trains a weekday London to Exeter, of these 14 must extend to Plymouth, 6 of those onto Penzance. I haven't done any of the maths on that, but Exeter to Plymouth seems roughly the same as now, although Penzance would stand to lose 3 trains from the current 9. (Presumably replaced by a unit that connects to the Plymouth - Pad). It would therefore suggest that 6 trains per weekday would terminate at Exeter perhaps?

So really I've answered my own question. Cheers for the link :D

I think the current Penzance HST service is well above the laid down requirement, at FGW's option, and that is what has led to the recent debate about 'cuts'. The 9 tph service seems to be a 'priced option' anyway, so may well continue.
 

richw

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Current requirement for fgw is 6 trains per day plus the night rivierA. Fgw are operating the extras above requirement standards
 

Manchester77

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Hi does anyone know how many first class and how many Standerd coaches there will be on each of the new trains?
 

jopsuk

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Number of seats would be more relevant, given these will have longer carriages than other stock (almost the length of a two-carriage pacer!)
 

Kneedown

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I'm on the edge of my seat just waiting for the inevitable witty comment saying that one bi-mode is too many! :D
 

Nym

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I'm on the edge of my seat just waiting for the inevitable witty comment saying that one bi-mode is too many! :D

With the electrification of the Midland Mainline, the potential life extension of HSTs for the B&H line and the chance of baby pendos...

One bi-mode is too many...
 

Kneedown

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One bi-mode is too many...

Yaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy! Thats that cleared up! :D

How about ordering a few more bi-modes FOR the MML seeing as there's no mention of wiring up the regular diversionary routes, or we could just stick an ac coach into the 222's and turn them into...............bi-modes! :D
 

Nym

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Yaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy! Thats that cleared up! :D

How about ordering a few more bi-modes FOR the MML seeing as there's no mention of wiring up the regular diversionary routes, or we could just stick an ac coach into the 222's and turn them into...............bi-modes! :D

Thats the point, I did some extensive maths before that indicated that a full electrification of the Midland Mainline and Baby Pendos for ICWC would release enough 22x stock for the GW's EDMU requirements, we'll now have an excess of LDPE Diesel Stock, unless theres a planned massive increase in capacity on the XC network, or the 22x fleet is going to see service with Transpennine Express, or Scotrail...
 

PhilipW

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Thats the point, I did some extensive maths before that indicated that a full electrification of the Midland Mainline and Baby Pendos for ICWC would release enough 22x stock for the GW's EDMU requirements, we'll now have an excess of LDPE Diesel Stock, unless theres a planned massive increase in capacity on the XC network, or the 22x fleet is going to see service with Transpennine Express, or Scotrail...

.... and linking Nym's good points with my original post on this thread, I still feel that the order for 36 Bi-Modes seems rather excessive just for Gloucester, Worcester and Weston-super-Mare services even allowing for the fact that some may be doubled up to 10-cars for part working to Swindon, Oxford and Bristol TM.

I feel that the order for just 21 electric 9-car sets for the core routes of Swansea, Cardiff and Britol is not really going to be enough and that we are going to see Bi-mode sets doubled up to 10 cars for some of these services. We will see, only time will tell.

Before it is suggested again, it is worth repeating that the DfT has no plans to put these bi-modes on Exeter and beyond services.
 

swt_passenger

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Before it is suggested again, it is worth repeating that the DfT has no plans to put these bi-modes on Exeter and beyond services.

You must mean no current plans then, because running them to Exeter and Penzance as a future option is in the DfT's announcent in black and white...
 

PhilipW

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You must mean no current plans then, because running them to Exeter and Penzance as a future option is in the DfT's announcent in black and white...

OK, I like being exact too. Saying "no current plans" is fine. I was just trying to re-emphasise that the current order of 36 bi-modes will not be going anywhere near Exeter anytime soon as some on this thread have either thought or hoped.

If in CP6, when there is more electrification (I hope), the DfT then wish to order some more electrics and consequentially re-allocate some these 36 to Exeter and beyond, that's fine by me. In fact, I think it's a good idea.
 

Rhydgaled

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One IEP bi-mode is too many if the 22x fleet can be bi-modes and, along with a few IC125s and the class 180 fleet can meet all our diesel long-distance-passenger-express needs.

Has the orriginal post taken into account interworking of diagrams, which may mean the number of 9-car electric diagrams is sufficient. Even if you don't make the 22x series bi-mode, I doubt the number of 5-car bi-modes is required. I think I once read in the orriginal IEP that a 5-car bi-mode was supposed to be capable of keeping time as a 10-car train when dragging a 5-car electric set beyond the wires. If that's correct, it doesn't seem like 2x 5-car bi-mode working together was intended, so even if we have to have IEP bi-mode nearly half of the bi-mode sets announced could really be 5-car electric sets. Even better just replace them all with 8-car bi-modes and forget trying to do portion working with units you cannot walk between.
 

PhilipW

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Has the orriginal post taken into account interworking of diagrams, which may mean the number of 9-car electric diagrams is sufficient

I have tried too as best I can, though I admit it is an inexact science. My working is detailed in the first thread.

In summary, to satisfy a 30min service to Cardiff with alternate ones going forward to Swansea plus a 15 min frequency to Bristol TM with 3 of the 4 per hour terminating there (the 4th being a bi-mode proceeding on to Weston), I reckon will require 24 (possibly, even probably, 25) 9-car electric sets per day in service. Yet only 21 are being ordered. That is my case.
 
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Rich McLean

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I have tried too as best I can, though I admit it is an inexact science. My working is detailed in the first thread.

In summary, to satisfy a 30min service to Cardiff with alternate ones going forward to Swansea plus a 15 min frequency to Bristol TM with 3 of the 4 per hour terminating there (the 4th being a bi-mode proceeding on to Weston), I reckon will require 24 (possibly, even probably, 25) 9-car electric sets per day in service. Yet only 21 are being ordered. That is my case.

I have this feeling even with electrification to swansea, that we may see 2x5 car bi-modes to cardiff, with a 5-coach IEP continuing to Swansea every hour, and on the other half hour a 9 car electric set to Cardiff

3 out of the 4 Bristol Services being 9 car electric, with the other service using 2x5 Car Bi-modes to Bristol TM with 5 cars extended to Weston SM

Sending a 9 car to Swansea could be overkill. However I agree, too many Bi-modes
 

tbtc

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Bear in mind that we will need bi-mode for the ECML too, and having a large order of GWML bi-modes makes the price more competitive (rather than just ordering ten for the ECML, which would make them more expensive per unit).

Despite the CP5 electrification there will always be places away from the wires that don't justify electrification (Carmarthen, Hereford, Weston...).

Plus, having just two types of IEP (nine coach electrics and five coach bi-modes) simplifies things (rather than having some shorter electrics and some longer bi-modes too).
 

Rich McLean

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Going to have a bash at a rough idea on what I think will happen

Off Peak
1tph Padd - Cardiff (9 car electric)
1tph Padd - Swansea (2x5 car bi-mode Cardiff, 5 car bi-modes detaches and continues to Swansea)
2tph Padd - Bristol TM via Bath (9 car electric)
1tph Padd - Bristol TM via Bristol PW (9 car electric)
1tp Padd - Bristol TM/Weston SM via PW (2 x 5 car bi mode to BTM, 1x car bi-mode to Weston SM)
1tph Padd - Swindon/Cheltneham (2 x bi-modes, with 1 x bi-mode detaching at Swindon to go onto Cheltneham.
1tph Padd-Oxford (1 bi-mode)
1tph Padd - Worcester/Hereford (2 x bi-modes Oxford, with 1 x bi-mode onwards to Worcester

Can anyone work out units required from that. Obviously during the peak, things will be different to meet demand

For the services which go onwards from Swansea 2 x 5 car bi-mode to Swansea, with 1 bi-mode set continuing to Carmathen
 

Rich McLean

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How come there will be nO 9 car bi modes?

It would be pointless, as they are not planned to run down the B&H, and you wouldn't really need a 9 coach train on the Cotswold's services, the Cheltneham's and for services beyond Swansea.

Same applies for East Coast, there isn't really a need to run 9 coaches for the off the wires extensions to Inverness, Aberdeen etc
 

tbtc

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How come there will be nO 9 car bi modes?

It simplifies things - instead of having four types of trains (long and short versions of electric and bi-mode) we will have five coach bi-mode and nine coach electric - which should make things a lot easier and encourage portion working at the extremes (you need a nine/ten coach train from London to Reading/ Swindon/ Oxford etc, but generally not all the way to Hereford/ Carmarthen etc).
 

PhilipW

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Going to have a bash at a rough idea on what I think will happen

Off Peak
1tph Padd - Cardiff (9 car electric)
1tph Padd - Swansea (2x5 car bi-mode Cardiff, 5 car bi-modes detaches and continues to Swansea)
2tph Padd - Bristol TM via Bath (9 car electric)
1tph Padd - Bristol TM via Bristol PW (9 car electric)
1tp Padd - Bristol TM/Weston SM via PW (2 x 5 car bi mode to BTM, 1x car bi-mode to Weston SM)
1tph Padd - Swindon/Cheltneham (2 x bi-modes, with 1 x bi-mode detaching at Swindon to go onto Cheltneham.
1tph Padd-Oxford (1 bi-mode)
1tph Padd - Worcester/Hereford (2 x bi-modes Oxford, with 1 x bi-mode onwards to Worcester

Can anyone work out units required from that. Obviously during the peak, things will be different to meet demand

For the services which go onwards from Swansea 2 x 5 car bi-mode to Swansea, with 1 bi-mode set continuing to Carmathen

That seems to to be the general accepted service. I would agree with it too; it follows my line of thought.

With your electric/bi-mode split, I think you would need 12 electrics for Bristol and 5 for Cardiff, so that is fine. With that we only have 4 left (assuming none in maintenance either) which is not enough for the Swansea service which will require 7, so as you say some/all of Swansea services may have to be bi-mode.

This puts us in a rather ironic situation. For the last year everyone has been shouting "Electrify on to Swansea. You must electrify, it makes no sense not to .... etc, etc". Eventually the DfT gives in and says "fine, we'll do it" ..... but .... "by the way, we won't order enough electric units for the service, you'll have to have some unnecessary bi-modes to run under the wires all the time".

That looks like the situation. Where is the logic in that ? I don't see it.
 

Rich McLean

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That seems to to be the general accepted service. I would agree with it too; it follows my line of thought.

With your electric/bi-mode split, I think you would need 12 electrics for Bristol and 5 for Cardiff, so that is fine. With that we only have 4 left (assuming none in maintenance either) which is not enough for the Swansea service which will require 7, so as you say some/all of Swansea services may have to be bi-mode.

This puts us in a rather ironic situation. For the last year everyone has been shouting "Electrify on to Swansea. You must electrify, it makes no sense not to .... etc, etc". Eventually the DfT gives in and says "fine, we'll do it" ..... but .... "by the way, we won't order enough electric units for the service, you'll have to have some unnecessary bi-modes to run under the wires all the time".

That looks like the situation. Where is the logic in that ? I don't see it.

During the Peak, of those 4 spare electrics, they would likely be used on to Swansea, with the bi-modes released from that which in turn doubling up the oxford services that terminate there and also running peak extra's out of Paddington.

Remember though, electrifying to swansea and the valleys will mean many local services becoming EMU's. so there still is an advantage in it
 

LE Greys

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That seems to to be the general accepted service. I would agree with it too; it follows my line of thought.

With your electric/bi-mode split, I think you would need 12 electrics for Bristol and 5 for Cardiff, so that is fine. With that we only have 4 left (assuming none in maintenance either) which is not enough for the Swansea service which will require 7, so as you say some/all of Swansea services may have to be bi-mode.

This puts us in a rather ironic situation. For the last year everyone has been shouting "Electrify on to Swansea. You must electrify, it makes no sense not to .... etc, etc". Eventually the DfT gives in and says "fine, we'll do it" ..... but .... "by the way, we won't order enough electric units for the service, you'll have to have some unnecessary bi-modes to run under the wires all the time".

That looks like the situation. Where is the logic in that ? I don't see it.

It's the usual Human factor, someone who is too proud to admit that they were wrong. Surely, there would still be time to change the allocation.

Slightly off-topic, if it's possible for EDMU+EMU workings to happen, that sounds like a sensible part solution for north of Edinburgh, especially if the frequency is upped somewhat, say one every two hours extended, with two to Inverness and the rest to Aberdeen. This would spread the traffic a bit and probably fit in better with the 170 schedules. If not, then 9-car EDMUs might be needed (Aberdeen trains are usually near capacity south of Dundee). With a small pool for NoS, then the case for some on the Western would be better.
 

DXMachina

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Slightly off-topic, if it's possible for EDMU+EMU workings to happen.....

I have no doubt the fact it'll be one fleet of two types means the traction and MU controls will be compatible

However 9 x 26m carriage is pretty long... make it 14 cars by adding a 5-car electro-diesel and i wonder how many platforms even have space to be extended to be long enough..
 

LE Greys

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I have no doubt the fact it'll be one fleet of two types means the traction and MU controls will be compatible

However 9 x 26m carriage is pretty long... make it 14 cars by adding a 5-car electro-diesel and i wonder how many platforms even have space to be extended to be long enough..

I was thinking 5+5.
 

jimm

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It would be pointless, as they are not planned to run down the B&H, and you wouldn't really need a 9 coach train on the Cotswold's services, the Cheltneham's and for services beyond Swansea.

It simplifies things - instead of having four types of trains (long and short versions of electric and bi-mode) we will have five coach bi-mode and nine coach electric - which should make things a lot easier and encourage portion working at the extremes (you need a nine/ten coach train from London to Reading/ Swindon/ Oxford etc, but generally not all the way to Hereford/ Carmarthen etc).

Have either of you ever travelled on peak Cotswold Line services?

There are several peak trains which are full or near-full HSTs arriving from the west into Oxford in the morning or heading back west in the late afternoon and early evening, never mind the loads between Oxford and London.

Due to short platform lengths between Oxford and Worcester, 2x5-car formations with no corridor connections simply won't work and trying to increase peak frequencies to spread out passengers over more trains would require heroic punctuality, due to the constraints posed by the remaining single-line sections, so how on earth these busy services will be operated is a mystery, unless the bidders go back to DfT and tell them that longer bi-mode formations are needed.

The tender documents do say they will still listen to suggestions about the formations, so it is to be hoped sense prevails and some long sets do indeed appear in the GW fleet.

For all those going on about 'unnecessary' bi-modes, not all diagrams are 'captive' to specific routes - as things stand, HSTs that spend much of the day on the main line also fit in Cotswold/Cheltenham turns to add capacity in the peaks, so making an allowance for such things to continue with new trains is surely sensible.
 

Stats

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It would be pointless, as they are not planned to run down the B&H, and you wouldn't really need a 9 coach train on the Cotswold's services, the Cheltneham's and for services beyond Swansea.

Same applies for East Coast, there isn't really a need to run 9 coaches for the off the wires extensions to Inverness, Aberdeen etc
East Coast will have 13 9-car bi-modes.
 

Rich McLean

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Have either of you ever travelled on peak Cotswold Line services?

There are several peak trains which are full or near-full HSTs arriving from the west into Oxford in the morning or heading back west in the late afternoon and early evening, never mind the loads between Oxford and London.

Due to short platform lengths between Oxford and Worcester, 2x5-car formations with no corridor connections simply won't work and trying to increase peak frequencies to spread out passengers over more trains would require heroic punctuality, due to the constraints posed by the remaining single-line sections, so how on earth these busy services will be operated is a mystery, unless the bidders go back to DfT and tell them that longer bi-mode formations are needed.

The tender documents do say they will still listen to suggestions about the formations, so it is to be hoped sense prevails and some long sets do indeed appear in the GW fleet.

For all those going on about 'unnecessary' bi-modes, not all diagrams are 'captive' to specific routes - as things stand, HSTs that spend much of the day on the main line also fit in Cotswold/Cheltenham turns to add capacity in the peaks, so making an allowance for such things to continue with new trains is surely sensible.

The only way to overcome that problem during the peak, is to extend platform lengths where possible, and where its not possible, advertise certain stations as front five coaches only. Unless as you say, go back to DfT, and order longer bi-modes, which I don't think will happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
East Coast will have 13 9-car bi-modes.

Ahh, I missed that. This could be an answer to the Costwold Peak services problem, if DfT see sense
 
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