HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[steamdrivenand]

But if there's to be an HS2 junction for Liverpool in South Cheshire then HS2 can't be going via Brown Edge etc as above as it would not go anywhere near Crewe and would run through East, not South Cheshire.

And whilst neither Stoke or Crewe are the most prosperous of areas there are an awful lot of well heeled people in the southern part of Cheshire and parts of North Staffs along with East Shropshire who could use a high speed service.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

But if there's to be an HS2 junction for Liverpool in South Cheshire then HS2 can't be going via Brown Edge etc as above as it would not go anywhere near Crewe and would run through East, not South Cheshire.

And whilst nether Stoke or Crewe aren't the most prosperous of areas there are an awful lot of well heeled people in the southern part of Cheshire and parts of North Staffs along with East Shropshire.

There can be no place for Nimbyism with HS2. If it needs to carve a route through East and South Cheshire then so be it. As a Cheshire resident myself the benefits for all would outweigh the minor impact on a few whiners.

 

[steamdrivenand]

This thread isn't about pro or anti HS2 CR, but about where the line might go on its way to Manchester.

I'm not sure what 'benefits' you consider it would bring to 'all', but the 'minor impact' you refer to could mean the loss of home or make a home intolerable to live in, which surely counts as more than a 'minor impact' in most peoples minds.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

This thread isn't about pro or anti HS2 CR, but about where the line might go on its way to Manchester.

I'm not sure what 'benefits' you consider it would bring to 'all', but the 'minor impact' you refer to could mean the loss of home or make a home intolerable to live in, which surely counts as more than a 'minor impact' in most peoples minds.

Sorry, I completely disagree. You appear to be already setting your stall out with talk of 'well heeled people' in 'properous areas'. This is irrelevant. HS2 needs to follow the best (fastest ?) line to Manchester and if this means that Wilmslow, Prestbury and the like are implicated then so be it. The project is too important to be delayed by these types. The people who live in these villages would be the the first to use such a beneficial service to London and beyond, yet would also be the first to squeal if the line came close to their mansions.
As I stated, a few villages in South and East Cheshire slightly blighted versus access to Europe for millions of people. Get it built.

 

[PR1Berske]

Not that we need to have another "pro verses anti", I agree with Cheshire Rover.

There's a reason why other countries build bigger, better, more expansive networks than us. We're bogged down by small-c conservative thinking, far too much over-romanticism about the countryside and obsessed to the point of festishism over house prices.

It's the same as the wind turbine debate. It's all very well having a nice view of distant hills, but I'd rather have the lights turning on when I flick a switch.

We need the HS2 line to help elevate stresses elsewhere on the network. I agree fully with Cheshire Rover - "access to Europe verses South Cheshire estate agents" has just one winner.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Sorry, I completely disagree. You appear to be already setting your stall out with talk of 'well heeled people' in 'properous areas'.

You seem to have read what you want to read CR, my point above was that there are plenty of people south of the conurbation of Manchester who are rich enough to be able to afford HS tickets south and that providing no station between Manchester and Birmingham gives them no means of accessing a high speed system. They won't travel north to Manchester to access a line south that only saves them a relatively short amount of time, if any, with parking/interchange times included.

And so far I've not seen any concrete plans about a joined up through service into Europe so there's an interchange at Euston or maybe Heathrow involved in your Continental dream.

Anyway that's all an aside because this thread should be about what route the line is to take given that people are saying it will be announced in the next two weeks. How they've managed to keep a lid on it for so long whilst the Government fought shy of publication I can't figure. Normally the newshounds have the details of such things wheedled out of the Civil Service before it's even hit a Ministers desk.

 

[PR1Berske]

That'll be the Leveson Effect: don't worry, it'll pass

 

[steamdrivenand]

It's the same as the wind turbine debate. It's all very well having a nice view of distant hills, but I'd rather have the lights turning on when I flick a switch.

Flick your switch during an anti cyclone and where will your power come from then?

In a way I'm hoping HS2 does go through Crewe so the recently erected wind turbine on the edge of the WCML just south of Crewe gets torn down. I guess drivers get a good view of it, but passengers just see the base of it because it's that close to the line.

Built almost on the border line of Cheshire, with residents of Staffordshire being virtually the only people who can see it. A sort of vertical 'V' sign from Cheshire.

There are any number of houses on its side of our village that have been for sale ever since the farmer put in planning. Four years later they're still for sale. Nobody wants to buy them and nobody gets compensation but the farmer gets cheap electricity and subsidies. Doesn't sound very fair to me.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There can be no place for Nimbyism with HS2. If it needs to carve a route through East and South Cheshire then so be it. As a Cheshire resident myself the benefits for all would outweigh the minor impact on a few whiners.

But does anyone on this thread remember travelling from Stockport to Manchester when quite some years ago now, a large triumphal sign affixed to the sign on a very long building opposite to Longsight depot on the Manchester-bound side that was bravely trumpeting....

Le Eurostar habite ici...

Where is that sign in 2012? Political will can change like straws blowing in the wind.

Incidentally, can you give a numerical estimate of your statement of a "few" whiners ? 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000 ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The project is too important to be delayed by these types. The people who live in these villages would be the the first to use such a beneficial service to London and beyond, yet would also be the first to squeal if the line came close to their mansions. As I stated, a few villages in South and East Cheshire slightly blighted versus access to Europe for millions of people. Get it built.

I will respond to two of your points, if I may be so bold:-

1)...It may come as somewhat as a shock to you when I say that people in both East and South Cheshire already have access to an entity already that offers your stated "access to Europe" and has been doing so for very many years.

For your delight and delectation, may I offer...Manchester International Airport.

2)...I see that as you espouse the required land change of use required to build a new rail line, for the reasons that you state, you would also be in full and total support for any new motorway projects that would require the self-same change of land usage required for your new rail route. Perhaps you would have no compunction whatsoever for the compulsory purchase of both National Trust lands and prime farming land that could be required for the expansion of the cargo bases and commercial developments at Manchester International Airport.

 

[HSTEd]

Really the easiest solution might be to simply put the whole thing in tunnel and go for a straight line from Birmingham to Manchester, with an intermediate station at whatever motorway or town happens to fall on that straight line.

 

[PR1Berske]

Really the easiest solution might be to simply put the whole thing in tunnel and go for a straight line from Birmingham to Manchester, with an intermediate station at whatever motorway or town happens to fall on that straight line.

"Thank you passengers for boarding this HS2 service to Manchester EuroMetroExchange. We will be calling at Birmingham International, Burslem-on-Trent EuroLink Parkway, and Manchester EuroMetroExchange"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The people who live in these villages would be the the first to use such a beneficial service to London and beyond.

We are already well served with fast trains to London from both Macclesfield and Wilmslow stations, if you are unaware of this fact.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Thank you passengers for boarding this HS2 service to Manchester EuroMetroExchange. We will be calling at Birmingham International, Burslem-on-Trent EuroLink Parkway, and Manchester EuroMetroExchange"

Not forgetting the hoped-to-be expansion of "Ardwick International Exchange"..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.
Either way the main problem approaching Manchester will be the Cheshire Nimbys.

A most unusual situation, with the aristocrats taking the parts in a reverse-role revival of Les Miserables...

 

[Haydn1971]

Lots of assumptions that the line will go direct to Manchester... Birmingham is on a spur, it's looking likely that Leeds will be on a spur, why divert from the key route north to service just Manchester, why not slam a direct route north in the gap between Manchester and Warrington in practically empty land and provide a high speed triangle junction into Manchester from the west along with a parkway station at a location that provides access to an improved North Transpennine line.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Lots of assumptions that the line will go direct to Manchester... Birmingham is on a spur, it's looking likely that Leeds will be on a spur, why divert from the key route north to service just Manchester, why not slam a direct route north in the gap between Manchester and Warrington in practically empty land and provide a high speed triangle junction into Manchester from the west along with a parkway station at a location that provides access to an improved North Transpennine line.

Good point '71, mind you'd have to find a gap in Warrington Mega Shed Land to fit the triangle and station, but it would at least give good access to both Merseyside and M'chester. It would then be relatively easy to carry on further north as and when. You could even run the spur into M'chester centre on top of the Ship Canal.

Running it the way you suggest would mean either blasting a way through Crewe or taking a very lazy curve east or west around it.

 

[PR1Berske]

"dunham massey parkway"

 

[Waverley125]

would not the best option be to re-convert Manchester Central to its original use as a railway station? Use the viaduct to get out past Deansgate, then build a new viaduct to access the M602 corridor out to Barton.

Would limit demolition to mainly industrial estate buildings, give a city-centre terminus and easy interchange for local services with both Metrolink and heavy rail at Deansgate.

 

[steamdrivenand]

"dunham massey parkway"

Well it's either that or Tatton Hall Europark

 

[Haydn1971]

Running it the way you suggest would mean either blasting a way through Crewe or taking a very lazy curve east or west around it.

Just looking at a map, I'm thinking

Lichfield to M6 following roughly the A51, crossing M6 south of Trentham Gardens, then back across M6 near Keele services. Parallel the M6, crossing east and west to maintain a straight line, then a direct line north from M6 J19, slipping east of Lymm and west of Irlam. Loads of space at Chat Moss for a triangle junction facing into Manchester, plus a large parkway station and a link road to the M62 at a new J11a

From here, the northern line tie in, curves to fit the gap between Leigh & Atherton and Hindley & Westhoughton, west of Aspull and either rejoins the WCML here or preferably continues on a bypass route to the west of Preston

Manchester spur uses the M602 route into the city, partly parallel to the existing rail and motorway infrastructure, gets very tight east of J2, but could be worked with either viaducts or removal of the hard shoulder on the M602 to free up space. Station location being just to the south of Salford Central.

 

[JohnCarlson]

I think you'll find that, in England, any piece of land that isn't built upon either a site of Special Scientific Interest or some form of Nature Reserve.

You can also guarantee that someones life will be ruined if you build anything anywhere.

Indeed here in Tyneside a large tourist development was canceled I believe because someone needed to walk their dog on the field.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"dunham massey parkway"

My grandfather would (quite possibly literally) turn in his grave - he manned the LNWR signal box at Dunham Massey 1900-1904 (then Lymm until 1945).
If only they hadn't closed the line to Timperley it would have made for quick access to Manchester.
Plenty of "well-heeled" folk about.

 

[JohnCarlson]

would not the best option be to re-convert Manchester Central to its original use as a railway station? Use the viaduct to get out past Deansgate, then build a new viaduct to access the M602 corridor out to Barton.

Would limit demolition to mainly industrial estate buildings, give a city-centre terminus and easy interchange for local services with both Metrolink and heavy rail at Deansgate.

Not sure if this ex station would be long enough. It might be less problematic to rebuild Exchange and combine it with Victoria. By the time work would start the arena might be also in need of a rebuild.

 

[billio]

Not sure if this ex station would be long enough. It might be less problematic to rebuild Exchange and combine it with Victoria. By the time work would start the arena might be also in need of a rebuild.

I remember reading somwhere that there was room for another two platforms under the Area which could be used to extend Victoria. If this is a myth (which it probably is) then there looks to be space where Exchange was located. There is also room for servicing to the north of Victoria.

Moving walkways could link this station with Victoria (or a very long platform ).

One advantage is that the line could be extended North East into Yorkshire and to Leeds, either along new lines (probably mainly tunnels) or partially along existng lines. Such a route could also be used to speed up trans-pennine services significantly.

 

[Waverley125]

I'm pretty sure you could get 4 400m platforms at Central. There'd be a tight curve at the south end, and they'd have to extend onto the viaduct, but it could be done.

 

[Haydn1971]

Why on earth would HS2 Ltd want to buy out a very busy conference centre yo provide a constrained station in a historic nightmare of a building that isnt quite big enough, has poor road access and limited scope for associated development, when there are plenty of much cheaper options available with space for parking, direct access to other railway lines and the motorway network. For example the massive car park to the south of Manchester Victoria ?

 

[steamdrivenand]

Using a spur system to feed Manchester and Liverpool with an easy option to continue further north makes an awful lot of sense and is therefore probably why the HS2 people won't do it.

 

[Manchester77]

Why on earth would HS2 Ltd want to buy out a very busy conference centre yo provide a constrained station in a historic nightmare of a building that isnt quite big enough, has poor road access and limited scope for associated development, when there are plenty of much cheaper options available with space for parking, direct access to other railway lines and the motorway network. For example the massive car park to the south of Manchester Victoria ?

As well as being two tracked out f the terminus as metrolink have one of the old viaducts. Why not build a new station on the wastelands next to Cornbrook Metrolink where interchange between almost every metrolink line will be available?

 

[Chris125]

I think Manchester Central is probably a non-starter - not only would it make the station very expensive in an area with relatively little need for regeneration compared to other parts of the city, but more importantly there just isn't enough room for sufficient 400m platforms, it wouldn't provide an interchange with heavy rail service's and the larger loading gauge of HS2 could be an issue for the (listed?) viaduct that served it along with the cost of bringing it back into use.

It would be very surprising if the site selected isn't alongside Piccadilly, whether to the north or south.

Chris

 

[Manchester77]

Mayfield perhaps?

 

[Padav]

@steamdrivenand: But if there's to be an HS2 junction for Liverpool in South Cheshire then HS2 can't be going via Brown Edge etc as above as it would not go anywhere near Crewe and would run through East, not South Cheshire.

Not quite sure how you arrive at that conclusion. If there is a link line between phase 2 of HS2 and the existing WCML this does not necessarily require shifting the entire line to the west as you suggest?

@steamdrivenand: And so far I've not seen any concrete plans about a joined up through service into Europe so there's an interchange at Euston or maybe Heathrow involved in your Continental dream.

Then I suggest a visit to the URL shown directly below, where scrolling down the page a bit finds a reference to the HS2-HS1 connection and various embedded links to detailed maps showing the route of said link between HS2 and HS1, which facilitates direct services operating from UK provincial cities to near mainland European destinations, probably Paris and Brussels to begin with but this could expand later on as popularity increases. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-revised-line-of-route-maps

You should also visit this URL http://hs2ltd.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/serving-the-continent_0.pdf which will download a small PDF file explaining DfT strategy in this specific area of overall HS2 plans

I agree that this is one area of HS2 govt. strategy where I have grave misgivings; in my opinion the DfT and HS2 Ltd have seriously underestimated demand for through running services and it may well be that even before Phase 2 is up and running (scheduled for 2033) the folly of providing a capacity constrained single line link between HS2 and HS1 will already have become obvious – the government apparently baulked at the reported £3bn cost of a full spec twin bore tunnel and went for the cheapo cut down option instead – cost approx £0.5bn

@Paul Sidorczuk: 1)...It may come as somewhat as a shock to you when I say that people in both East and South Cheshire already have access to an entity already that offers your stated "access to Europe" and has been doing so for very many years.

For your delight and delectation, may I offer...Manchester International Airport.

Yes and that’s why I think it’s vital that phase 2 plans include a (through running?) station within the Airport’s environs, thereby creating a strategic link for incoming long distance air travellers to seamlessly transfer on to Europe bound High Speed Rail services?

 

[Haydn1971]

Whilst I can see the support for Mayfield, especially with so many services using Piccadill. I'm concious that there is considerably more work required to get a HS line into Mayfield and out the other end for continuation onwards to Liverpool and Preston. This is why I prefer the west of Manchester route and spur into the west side of the city. Dropping HS2 services onto the WCML at this point wouldn't help improve capacity onwards to the north and Liverpool.

We might consider best placement of stations now with respect to current services, but as I've said elsewhere, I expect a considerable number of changes to connecting services and indeed new options open up as a result of the new era of fast trains - this new era needs space to expand into, which Mayfield doesn't really offer.