HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[sheff'd victoria]

Meadowhall would be fine - linking with the nine trains an hour to Sheffield Midland and eight trams an hour to Sheffield Cathedral (both based on current frequencies)/ M1 etc.

A stand alone HS2 station may be a bit of a white elephant... Victoria would be isolated from other trains/ trams... Nunnery Square is a distance out of town... any station that isn't on the main HS2 line from London/ Birmingham to Leeds/ Newcastle would presumably get a low fewer trains than one on the main line alignment (i.e. Meadowhall)... no space at Sheffield Midland for 400m trains or any fast running... sadly Sheffield's business market doesn't have the kind of national importance to justify a complicated solution... just a few thoughts.

Were we are sad that the site of Sheffield Victoria station will not be used this does still open the door forthe Don Valley Railway to start running services

I'm actually a fan of the Meadowhall "Parkway" through solution, with some line speed improvements on the Sheffield-Rotherham-Doncaster line, it would have great linkage. Now can we get the line in now rather than in 20 years as I catch the train daily from Meadowhall to Leeds and point to point, the express train speed is a bit of a joke... Mmmmm.... Straight flat line would be lovely for getting to work

Meadowhall AGAIN !

No wonder Sheffield City Centre is dying on its knees , I bet the HS2 station is bang in the middle of Le*ds :-x

 

[eastwestdivide]

Taking a step back and looking at what happens on new high speed lines elsewhere, it's not unusual for new stations on high speed lines to be outside the city centres, e.g. Avignon TGV, Macon TGV. A trade-off with the expense of new build lines in built-up areas.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree with the recent Next Statement regarding the rejection of the city centre being nothing to do with Meadowhall. Leeds is currently embarking on huge investment in its city centre shopping facilities. What is sheffield doing?

My report gave Leeds a city centre station but not Sheffield, mainly because of the engineering to be honest. Sheffield is hellish dificult to get in and out of without slowing the line down quite a bit. Plus it really does not warrant it, passeneger numbers, regional importance and national importance just arnt as high.

 

[Haydn1971]

The key thing against Sheffield City Centre in my mind is the lack of connectivity to large population areas. Essentially it would be a Sheffield Station, whereas something at Meadowhall provides excellent linkage via the motorway network to fours times the population.

Re the Victoria Station idea - I'm sceptical about placing the weight of a new station building, potentially two 400m trains, potentially a couple of Javilin style HS2 compatable commuter services, all that footfall vibration onto a structure that is currently 160 years old and hasn't seen mainline service for half a century.

Admittedly the viaduct could be rebuilt, the potential for a classic link north is nice, but as said elsewhere, there are masses of empty plots at Meadowhall, a good clear north-south route, potential for a dual level station and intercity connections, big car parks, retail is right next door, so potential for hotels especially with all the event venues in the valley - its a no brainier really.

 

[Oswyntail]

...Plus it really does not warrant it, passeneger numbers, regional importance and national importance just arnt as high.

Surely the politico-economic purpose of HS2 is to raise the regional and national importance of the towns on the route, and so increase passenger numbers. If the project is only based on what is provided at present, it would merely become a long-distance commute into London (much like the ECML, MML, and WCML)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Surely the politico-economic purpose of HS2 is to raise the regional and national importance of the towns on the route, and so increase passenger numbers. If the project is only based on what is provided at present, it would merely become a long-distance commute into London (much like the ECML, MML, and WCML)

Yes, hence why it is built in the South Yorkshire region so as to promote other areas of South Yorkshire, sorry i meant to add that, didnt make myself clear. Sheffield does not warrant a station to benefit just itself it needs to incoperate wider benefits.

 

[WestRiding]

Whisked from London, or even Europe at nearly 200mph to be dumped at Meadowhall, from where you can finish your journey in style on a 142 or 150 into Sheffield Midland, or take the tram, stopping at every leafy suburb of Sheffield, such as Hyde Park, Attercliffe, Cricket Inn Road........

 

[tbtc]

Whisked from London, or even Europe at nearly 200mph to be dumped at Meadowhall, from where you can finish your journey in style on a 142 or 150 into Sheffield Midland

You realise that this isn't going to open for another twenty years (at least)?

If Pacers are still with us in the 2030s then I'll despair!

 

[Haydn1971]

We will be all complaining about the knackered old Trans Pennine 185's by then

 

[sheff'd victoria]

You realise that this isn't going to open for another twenty years (at least)?
If Pacers are still with us in the 2030s then I'll despair!

What is the local number for the samaritans then

Newby on here, but some of you might recognise my name from a roads forum though.

I must nip down to Peterborough and complain about their Parkway streetlighting

 

[TheKeymeister]

Is there anything on paper yet about this, the potential route it will take, etc?

Newby on here, but some of you might recognise my name from a roads forum though. Noticed a thread about HS2 in Leeds, but has there been a similar discussion about Sheffield ?

I'm currently aware of the HS2 mega thread, which confirms my thoughts on the three most realistic options.
1st most likely - Meadowhall likely as a through station, but also possibly a terminus on a spur
2nd most likely - Nunnery as a terminus on a spur
3rd most likely - City Centre, either as a north south through station (lots of tunnel) or more likely as a terminus (although again, where you would fit a 4, even 2 platform station that accomodates 400m long trains is the big question.

Anyone drawn any possible options up ?

Another one from SABRE then !

 

[Haydn1971]

Yep, the Site Manager for 2yrs

Nothing in the public domain - but strongly suspect some details on in a secure folder on our server at work :-/

 

[steamdrivenand]

I recently saw a thread about the proposed HS2 route following the ECML between Lichfield and Crewe and passing through Crewe but can't find the thread now.

My view is that it isn't a starter for a number of reasons.

It would be possible for the first portion to follow the ECML, but when it gets to the Maer Hills/Baldwins Gate/Whitmore area the ECML goes through the rail equivalent of a 'Z' bend and HS2 needs a fairly straight track.

It's been stated that there will be no plans for a station between Lichfield and Manchester and therefore why go through an urban area like Crewe when 'clean' greenfield options are available.

Whilst Crewe has lots of under utilised railway land all round it the pinch point at the station is a nightmare roadwise and additional tracks etc would mean completely rebuilding the whole area. Maybe no bad thing, but ultra expensive.

It was only a few months ago that NR announced a major project to upgrade/improve Crewe Station, would they do that if it was all to be ploughed up by HS2 North?

Crewe moves the line too far west when you're seeking a high speed and presumably shortest realistic route to/from Manchester.

Crewe isn't exactly the mecca for business travel and IF a station was to be built on HS2NW it would need much better accessibility to the major road network and centres of population/business.

I'm thinking the route will follow the ECML 'til just before the sharp bends at Baldwins Gate etc and will then deviate straight ahead (due north) and run between Keele and Madeley, roughly following the route of the M6 (over some old North Staffs stamping ground) to emerge onto flatter ground to the right of the motorway all the way towards Knutsford etc.

Such a route would mean running across the A500, just to the east of its M6 junction, providing a superb site for a Stoke Parkway station serving Stoke, Newcastle, Sandbach, Crewe, Nantwich etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I recently saw a thread about the proposed HS2 route following the ECML between Lichfield and Crewe and passing through Crewe but can't find the thread now.

Think you might need a different compass on your trips...

 

[steamdrivenand]

Sorry it comes from 15 years living in North Yorkshire until recently. Apologies, for 'ECML' read 'WCML'

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You are right about the Z bend at Whitmore, but the Colwich-Stafford-Cold Meece stretch is also much too curved to use for HS2.
When NR and the SRA were musing about a new WCML route avoiding the Stafford bottleneck, I imagined they would have to follow the NS route from Colwich up the Trent Valley, and then head for Norton Bridge from around Weston.
But they never disclosed the possible routes, and eventually went for a lower-cost option to grade-separate Norton Bridge.

The bold (and more direct) HS2 route would be under Brown Edge, east of the Potts, with a long tunnel(s).
An "M6" alignment would probably be the least destructive.
Either way the main problem approaching Manchester will be the Cheshire Nimbys.

 

[northwichcat]

An "M6" alignment would probably be the least destructive.

Either way the main problem approaching Manchester will be the Cheshire Nimbys.

M6 alignment sounds good south of the A5033 (road linking Knutsford town centre and the A556.) North of there you're approaching land where a new A556(M) is to be built (between M6 Jct 19 and M58 Jct 8.)

An undecided is whether the Airport will or won't be on the HS2 route. If it isn't you could build a Cheshire Parkway station as a HS2 call which could have connecting Airport services, as well as being a local park and ride station.

 

[steamdrivenand]

I was sort of thinking that they'd straighten out the Stafford section in the same way as using the Whitmore/Keele gap, passing to the north west of Stafford. If they go Brown Edge way it would need to be a very, very long tunnel almost underground from A50 to the old alignment north of Biddulph. Then east of Congleton over another old trackbed.

But then it's slap bang into Alderley Edge and if they think they've got problems with NIMBYs at Amersham it'll be carnage at Alderley, with Ferraris and Bentleys lined up 10 deep at the barricades.

 

[Padav]

@steamdrivenand

The story about Crewe refers to a link line between HS2 phase 2 and the existing WCML, to facilitate improved connections to Liverpool (operating with Classic Compatible Rolling Stock) not the route of HS2 phase 2 line itself.

I've attached again my best guestimate, previously published within a separate thread some months back, based on an analysis of known information, plus some supposition on my part, for the North Western Arm of HS2 - I stress that I have NO access to any official information not already in the public domain.

I believe there will be a station at Manchester Airport - a through running platform - all of the previous public statements point to a station somewhere within the environs of Manchester Airport (although of course no one in a position of influence over the decision making process has actually said as much).

I realise my guess won't prove anywhere near correct (that would be a fluke) but I won't be surprised if some of the elements contained in my prediction prove accurate.

You can avoid Alderley Edge (I should know because I live there) quite easily - it's not actually the village of Alderley Edge that gets in the way either, rather the area of Wilmslow known as Lindow protruding west from the town centre - HS2 route planners would be dumb to plough straight through that built up area of housing.

However, if you plot a line more or less in a northwesterly direction (almost the straightest, shortest distance route configuration) from the current terminus of HS2 phase 1, you pass east of Stoke and Stafford, under Brown Edge, just south of Biddulph, skirt along the southwest edge of Congleton and then turn in a large arc to a more northerly trajectory - this brings you to a location more or less equidistant between Knutsford, Wilmslow and Alderley Edge.

From that point the line could proceed in cutting to descend under the runways at Manchester Airport creating a subterranean through running high speed station at a 90% angle to the existing classic line terminus station (linked by elevators and lifts?). The line could then continue in tunnel directly beneath the heavily built up area of Wythenshawe before emerging closer to the city centre, possibly running parallel to Princess Parkway into the centre itself - this is where the engineering gets tricky - there is no clear surface pathway into Manchester City Centre.

I also believe Manchester Mayfield will be the Manchester City Centre terminus although I understand another site in Salford has been considered - some contributors here say that you haven't got enough space at Mayfield (not enough room for 400m platforms) but I've looked repeatedly at the site and it all depends how you design/configure the throat of the station - I believe there is enough space although I agree it's tight.

Barring some unforeseen and bizarre decision on the part of Justice Ousely (who is presiding over the Judicial Review of phase 1 brought by 51M, HS2AA & Aylesbury Golf Club) we shouldn't have to wait too long to find out - I think the announcement of a preferred route for phase 2 will be forthcoming by second week of January?

 

[Nym]

OK, insanely long post...

I'm one of the major advocates of "Mayfeild" and thanks to a certain level of idiocy I've moved to re-define this as Baring St. As it would take up the whole industrial area there to make plenty of space for 400m long platforms, and later versions would also include shorter platforms for additional classic services that can run via HS2's approached (using the northern arm of the Delta).

I have looked at using Princess Road as a part of an approach but not at a sub surface station at Manchester Airport, I'm favouring taking over the space used by the two "Air Parks" budget car parks just North of the M56 and including park and ride spaces galore for the station and a significantly improved M56 juntion and access, intergrated with the A555 extention (hopefully in M form, and hopefully to Baguley, but that won't happen) to provide good road access from South Manchester via this junction to avoid excessive additional traffic in Wythenshawe.

With a large delta junction in place, tunneling under Sale/Alty and surfacing pretty much where possible one can reach Longsight TMD (Eurostar) to use as a tunnel portal and configure a good flying junction (that can be built in stages to provide the HS2 station before the dedicated line, for use by classic compatable stock via Longsight) that will then see HS2 on a viaduct from Longsight to Baring St, with the works also including additional slow lines for the airport route via Styal, and possibly a grade seperated conversion of Slade Lane Junction. (Wanting to ensure future capacity at Manchester Southern Approaches)

 

[steamdrivenand]

I have virtually no knowledge of Manchester and its environs, but moving south from the municipality it seems to me that an alignment via Brown Edge, around to the south of Biddulph and south west of Congleton would involve some curves that would be too sharp for HS2 purposes. At a quick glance the only way a decently straight line could be achieved is by sacrificing and running through a couple of well populated areas of those towns. I'm also aware that there are quite a few relatively steeply graded valleys that run at a tangent to the trackbed if it takes that potential line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You can avoid Alderley Edge (I should know because I live there) quite easily - it's not actually the village of Alderley Edge that gets in the way either, rather the area of Wilmslow known as Lindow protruding west from the town centre - HS2 route planners would be dumb to plough straight through that built up area of housing.

It is nice to see that I have another forum member living close by to me, as I reside in the rural part of Prestbury that fringes upon Mottram St Andrew. With regard to the Lindow area of Wilmslow and the matter of the housing to which you refer, there are two other points also to be borne in mind:-

1)...Lindow Common is a Site of Special Scientific Interest and is now also designated as a nature reserve.

2)...Lindow Moss, where the body of "Lindow Man" was found and exhumed, still a most emotive situation espoused by professorial names of note.

 

[route:oxford]

It is nice to see that I have another forum member living close by to me, as I reside in the rural part of Prestbury that fringes upon Mottram St Andrew. With regard to the Lindow area of Wilmslow and the matter of the housing to which you refer, there are two other points also to be borne in mind:-

1)...Lindow Common is a Site of Special Scientific Interest and is now also designated as a nature reserve.

2)...Lindow Moss, where the body of "Lindow Man" was found and exhumed, still a most emotive situation espoused by professorial names of note.

I think you'll find that, in England, any piece of land that isn't built upon either a site of Special Scientific Interest or some form of Nature Reserve.

You can also guarantee that someones life will be ruined if you build anything anywhere.

 

[Padav]

@steamdrivenand: At a quick glance the only way a decently straight line could be achieved is by sacrificing and running through a couple of well populated areas of those towns.

1. No matter how hard you look, there will be no route found capable of avoiding everyone, everywhere
2. The minimum radius curvature required to facilitate 400km/h running speed is 7200m
3. Tunnelling in and around the area of Brown Edge and again north east of Mow Cop will avoid most residential housing zones and there is always the facility to use cut and cover green tunnelling in close proximity to residential areas - phase 1 goes right past/through the middle of Burton Green using this latter method?
4. Just because a trackbed is already in existence does not necessarily mean the new line will take that route, although I accept this strategy reduces potential costs.
5. New High Speed Line is expensive to construct so taking the shortest route will save money overall - if the total distance, from the current terminus of phase 1 to Manchester City Centre, can be reduced by "X" km that means "X" x many £Million saving

Which "well populated" areas are you referring to?

 

[steamdrivenand]

Well if you run a straight edge from Brown Edge to SW of Cong Le Ton you'd be heading due NW/SE and would plough through the middle of Biddulph, with little room to wriggle one way orthe other with such a wide radius curve required.

It would seem more sensible to have the route heading nearer due north around the Brown Edge area which would mean passing due east of Biddulph and Congleton, albeit on higher ground with issues surrounding Biddulph Grange NT property. That keeps the line well west of Macc Les Field and still heading towards the airport. However all of that, whilst much more direct, is on remoter, higher land with real rock rather than the clay and chalk to tunnel through like the southern part of HS2.

A higher route is certainly more direct and less travelling miles in service, but the engineering cost per mile might be substantially more and that might be important if capital is tight. Spending extra billions and taking longer to build to save a couple of minutes travelling time might not be considered worth it.

 

[Zoe]

M6 alignment sounds good south of the A5033 (road linking Knutsford town centre and the A556.) North of there you're approaching land where a new A556(M) is to be built (between M6 Jct 19 and M58 Jct 8.)

The A556(M) is not going to be built, this was cancelled in 2003. Instead there is to be an environmental improvement which will involve construction of a new all purpose road from the M6 to Bucklow Hil and widening of the existing road between there and the M56. Details at http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/a556-knutsford-to-bowdon-environmental-improvement/

What is happening?
In 2003 the Secretary of State for Transport cancelled plans for a new motorway link, the A556(M), having not been convinced that the A556(M)'s proposal for a new motorway-standard road in open countryside was acceptable. At the same time he also cancelled an alternative proposal to improve the M6 junction 20, bypassing the A556, as studies indicated it would not operate effectively and would not represent good value for money. We have been asked to look at alternative proposals, involving local communities in our work.

When and where is this happening?
The A556 is a major trunk road between north Cheshire and south Manchester. The section of the A556 under consideration is between the M6 junction 19 near Tabley/Knutsford and the M56 junction 7 near Bowdon. To the northern end of the A556 are the communities of Altrincham, Bowdon and Hale. Rostherne Mere is situated to the east of the route, close to the existing trunk road. It is a Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI), a National Nature Reserve and a wetland of international importance. At the southern end, close to the town of Knutsford, is Tatton Park (a National Trust property), which hosts many events annually, including the Royal Horticultural Society Flower Show.

In the October 2010 Spending Review, the Chancellor announced that the A556 Knutsford to Bowdon Environmental Improvement scheme will be prepared for start of construction before 2015, subject to the outcome of statutory processes.

Alongside the Budget announcement on the 21st March 2012, the Government confirmed that this scheme is planned to commence in financial year 2014/15.

 

[Padav]

Well if you run a straight edge from Brown Edge to SW of Cong Le Ton you'd be heading due NW/SE and would plough through the middle of Biddulph, with little room to wriggle one way orthe other with such a wide radius curve required.

Not necessarily - if the line crosses the A527 at Knypersley, judicious use of Green Tunnelling will minimise impact on the area (although it will take out some houses) and once beyond there the line would dive back into a relatively short deep bore tunnel to negotiate the ridge of hills northeast of Mow Cop - I didn't say it would be easy and/or impact free - fact is there is no route that will miss entirely all built up residential areas - such a benign outcome is physically impossible!

 

[steamdrivenand]

I still don't know, it seems an awful, awful lot of civil engineering to do anything in that whole area AND passing that close to The Potteries (whichever side) without a HS station is really sticking two fingers in the air to the populace of the whole area.

 

[Kettledrum]

I still don't know, it seems an awful, awful lot of civil engineering to do anything in that whole area AND passing that close to The Potteries (whichever side) without a HS station is really sticking two fingers in the air to the populace of the whole area.

You could make the same arguements for the residents of the Buckinghamshire and the Chilterns - but it's a completely false arguement because some of the capacity of the existing WCML will be freed up.

The Potteries will have similar journey possibilities to the present. If anything there could be additional stops on some Stoke to London services, and hopefully less standing up.

The other really fundamental thing about the potteries is the demographics. HS2 is going to deliver a premium product aimed at the business community who will pay a premium price for getting there quicker.

I'd suggest that this sort of market from the Potteries is very small.
Therefore a HS2 station there could not be justified.....unless it's going to be the site of the junction where classic compatible trains for Liverpool leave the HS2 main line. My understanding is that this is likely to be in South Cheshire, nearer Crewe that Stoke.

 

[HSTEd]

The other really fundamental thing about the potteries is the demographics. HS2 is going to deliver a premium product aimed at the business community who will pay a premium price for getting there quicker.

So the extra capacity argument is just nonsense?

You can't have a premium product that outsells the non premium product by several times, which HS2 must do to pay its way.