My ideas for London - Kent timetable changes

[tbtc]

Congratulations SouthEastern for being the bunch of money-grabbers they are and speaking of the propaganda part just to add to the facts that firstly they treat London like it's the size of a dot, secondly they don't even offer free connectivity to Victoria, Canon Street, Charing Cross or London Bridge and plus making those journeys will just make the journey take the same amount of time even against the now slowed down slow services!

Plus thanks to the fragmented railways there is NO competition for train services in Kent and South East London so much for competition John Major! I really hope this doesn't happen with HS2 as well!

Just watch this BBC news report and notice how the Head of SE tries to sweep the problem under the rug and brag about the bit of HS rail in Kent while he's clearly having this running through his greedy head!



And that too as the HS1 services running on classic old 3rd rail lines shouldn't even be more expensive if you let's say go from Margate to Faversham as that journey won't even run on new 25kv AC lines... and well said about the DfT/DafT part as well.

My Two Pence:

Once again privatisation has failed us and is ripping-off the average Joe over for the sake of enormous profits!

I'm confused...

they treat London like it's the size of a dot

?

they don't even offer free connectivity to Victoria, Canon Street, Charing Cross or London Bridge

?

thanks to the fragmented railways there is NO competition for train services in Kent and South East London so much for competition

There's no "competition" in most parts of the country - only one TOC for many services. Nothing specific to Kent.

 

[junglejames]

And that too as the HS1 services running on classic old 3rd rail lines shouldn't even be more expensive if you let's say go from Margate to Faversham as that journey won't even run on new 25kv AC lines... and well said about the DfT/DafT part as well.

My Two Pence:

Once again privatisation has failed us and is ripping-off the average Joe over for the sake of enormous profits!

You dont pay extra for using the 395s over classic lines. Travel from Margate to Faversham, and you can use any train you like, 395 or 375.
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This seems to come up quite a lot but the reality is that HS1 has taken well over 90% of the Ashford and beyond traffic from and to London. The classic route trains are all but empty departing Ashford for London, the intermediate stations to Tonbridge offer far more traffic so it would make no sense whatsoever for the classic trains to run non stop anymore.

But how much of this traffic on HS1 is down to the fact the classic services have been slowed down by 20 plus minutes from Ashford?
Also, my plan would still leave 2 slow trains per hour. Its just one would start from Ashford. One of the current services would hence speed up. That way the intermediate stations get the same service, and Ashford and Folkestone get there fast classic service back. Albeit only 1 train per hour.

 

[AlanFry1]

You dont pay extra for using the 395s over classic lines. Travel from Margate to Faversham, and you can use any train you like, 395 or 375.
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But how much of this traffic on HS1 is down to the fact the classic services have been slowed down by 20 plus minutes from Ashford?
Also, my plan would still leave 2 slow trains per hour. Its just one would start from Ashford. One of the current services would hence speed up. That way the intermediate stations get the same service, and Ashford and Folkestone get there fast classic service back. Albeit only 1 train per hour.

Thank god for that if there was a higher fare for using 395's on classic lines I would be furious. And good plan for Ashord junglejames.

 

[Bushy]

You dont pay extra for using the 395s over classic lines. Travel from Margate to Faversham, and you can use any train you like, 395 or 375.

Taking Canterbury West as an example, the difference between Non HS and HS prices is the same as the difference from Ashford.

Much was made in the local news of the increase in season ticket price rises from Canterbury but the rise now means that they actually pay for the journey between Canterbury and Ashford whereas there was no difference in the price from Canterbury and from Ashford in 2012.

Regards

Bushy

 

[yorkie]

Thank god for that if there was a higher fare for using 395's on classic lines I would be furious. And good plan for Ashord junglejames.

They are not allowed to do that, only geographical route restrictions (such as "Not Darlington", "Not HS1" etc) are allowed, unless it's a TOC-specific restriction (such as "Virgin Trains Only"). There is no provision in the rules to restrict by brand or train type, only by TOC.

 

[notadriver]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but why not terminate the Faversham high speed services at Rochester and reinstate the stopping service between Victoria and Faversham which was operated by a 465/9? Speed up the mainline Victoria to Ramsgate services so they omit Longfield, Meopham, Newington and Teynham.

One thing I've noticed is 395s have a longer dwell time at stations due to their doors being pressure sealed and narrower and their performance seems to be lacking beyond 70 mph.

 

[TheJRB]

This seems to come up quite a lot but the reality is that HS1 has taken well over 90% of the Ashford and beyond traffic from and to London. The classic route trains are all but empty departing Ashford for London, the intermediate stations to Tonbridge offer far more traffic so it would make no sense whatsoever for the classic trains to run non stop anymore.

Whilst I agree that off-peak Monday to Friday the Tonbridge line services rely upon the intermediate stations to fill them up, there is still a considerable number of people of specifically want to go to Charing Cross on the weekend (be it tourism or shopping) who don't want the hassle of using the Underground.

I agree on the North Kent line - it really is a bit pathetic how it crawls along. It's a shame that HS1 hasn't been followed by general works on the Kent lines to upgrade running speeds and signalling.

That way, the now-ubiquitous stoppers wouldn't have such a penalty. For example, trains stopping everywhere east of Rochester?!

I'm not aware of any upgrade schemes in North Kent, but the line from Ashford to Ramsgate via Canterbury West is being upgraded to 90mph running I believe in the next few years. The Tonbridge line already has a line speed of 100mph owing to its ruler like straightness.

On a vaguely related note, the only truly fast service on the Tonbridge line is still the weekday only 2R20 0853 London Charing Cross to Ashford International. It was made faster again in the December timetable change and calls only at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Tonbridge and is then fast to Ashford.

 

[notadriver]

It's a shame that trains now no longer take advantage of the 100 mph line speed as they now call at all stations ...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think it will be an absolute nightmare.

Thinking Greenwich line - currently you catch the first train and change at LB. There's never a long wait and a lot of people do this to get to their terminus.

But with this, it'll be either piling onto the specific train (Charing Cross doesn't have too many in the peak) or another route. For example, I'm in Soho for work, so I'll get the Central line from Bank (2 mins from Cannon St).

I commute along that line too, and I generally try to time my trips so I don't have to change at London Bridge. Judging from the numbers of people I see on platforms who don't get on a train when it calls I would guess that a significant minority also deliberately choose trains to avoid changing.

I would assume that once the London Bridge works happen and that option is thereby forced on everyone, the impact will be more crowded CHX services and less crowded CST services (presuming there won't be a reduction in the total numbers of services on the line). Definitely inconvenient, especially for people around Greenwich trying to get on to packed out CHX trains in the mornings. I guess one mitigating factor is that you can use District/Circle/Waterloo and City lines to get to the 'correct' destination if you end up on the wrong train.

And it will hopefully feel worth it once all the works are done and hopefully there'll be an end to the current frequent delays caused by trains queuing to get through London Bridge.

 

[mister-sparky]

The 2tph paths between London Bridge and Tonbridge that used to belong to the slow Ashford's now belong to extra Tunbridge Wells services. So there are no free paths now for extra Ashford services via Tonbridge. Ashford was cut from 4tph to 2tph to London classic lines. Tunbridge Wells was increased from 2tph to 4tph to London. So Ashford gained HS1 fast services, but lost classic lines services. Tunbridge Wells gained extra London services because it couldn't have HS1 services.

 

[Southern]

I used to be in the "bring back classic line services" camp but find with time my views have changed...in fact, I'd quite like to see a more frequent HS1 service of 2tph to Dover via Folkestone and 2tph to Margate via Canterbury Off - Peak.

 

[Bungle73]

And that too as the HS1 services running on classic old 3rd rail lines shouldn't even be more expensive if you let's say go from Margate to Faversham as that journey won't even run on new 25kv AC lines... and well said about the DfT/DafT part as well.

They're not.

The St Pancras to Faversham service, however, is an absurd waste of resources.The 140mph Class 395 trains manage about 77mph between St Pancras and Ebsfleet,

I'd like to know where you got that figure from because anyone who's travelled on the service, as I have, would tell you it's a lot faster than 77mph. I'm not sure a train running at 77mph would fit onto the HS line without holding other trains up.

As for them being a "waste" of resources I notice quite a few people using them these days, particularly in the peak hours when the train lengths are doubled to 12 coaches.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but why not terminate the Faversham high speed services at Rochester and reinstate the stopping service between Victoria and Faversham which was operated by a 465/9? Speed up the mainline Victoria to Ramsgate services so they omit Longfield, Meopham, Newington and Teynham.

No thanks. That mean we would lose our HS service.

They could speed up the Victoria services by removing the stops at Longfield and Meopham which it never used to stop at. Why those two stations need so many trains stopping when hardly anyone ever seems to get on or off there I have no idea.

One thing I've noticed is 395s have a longer dwell time at stations due to their doors being pressure sealed and narrower and their performance seems to be lacking beyond 70 mph.

Lacking?

 

[notadriver]

Yes - lacking.

 

[Bungle73]

Yes - lacking.

What do you mean "lacking"?

 

[atomicdanny]

They could speed up the Victoria services by removing the stops at Longfield and Meopham which it never used to stop at. Why those two stations need so many trains stopping when hardly anyone ever seems to get on or off there I have no idea.


Lacking?

I'm sure those living there would disagree with you though, although personally i would cut back the Faversham javelin services to just 1tph off peak and in turn giving Dover / Margate a 2tph service (with dividing at Ashford though)

Although then again I would also say for the mainline services cutting Adisham, Snowdown, Kearsney, Bekesbourne and Selling to 1tp2h off peak and also agree with you though but for Longfield and Meopham reintroduce the stopping service to Faversham while the fast service misses them out completely.

(i've not mentioned Aylesham or Shepherd's Well in there because those stations do need a hourly service, in my opinion)

Do the Class 395s really need to stop at all the medway stations?

 

[craigwilson]

They could speed up the Victoria services by removing the stops at Longfield and Meopham which it never used to stop at. Why those two stations need so many trains stopping when hardly anyone ever seems to get on or off there I have no idea.

I agree. There's absolutely no need for the off-peak Ramsgate-Victoria service to call at those two stations. They don't in the height of the peak - everything prior to the 0705 service from Ramsgate runs fast between either Rochester/Chatham and Bromley South.

I'd propose that Meopham and Longfield calls get dropped completely from the off-peak Ramsgate-Victoria schedule, or at the very least, the xx:40 services which skip Dumpton Park, Westgate, and Chestfield, should skip those stations too.
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I'm sure those living there would disagree with you though, although personally i would cut back the Faversham javelin services to just 1tph off peak and in turn giving Dover / Margate a 2tph service (with dividing at Ashford though)

And this. It would be a better use of capacity if nothing else.

Do the Class 395s really need to stop at all the medway stations?

Probably not as it stands, but if you cut the Faversham-St Pancras servcice as detailed to 1tph, then I'd say keep all the stops.

 

[notadriver]

What do you mean "lacking"?

Sorry they seem to have poor acceleration beyond 70 mph on DC lines.

 

[TheJRB]

They could speed up the Victoria services by removing the stops at Longfield and Meopham which it never used to stop at. Why those two stations need so many trains stopping when hardly anyone ever seems to get on or off there I have no idea.

Southeastern wanted to make reduce Longfield and Meopham to 2tph off-peak in the December 2012 timetable but the opposition was too great for it to happen in the end.

 

[craigwilson]

Southeastern wanted to make reduce Longfield and Meopham to 2tph off-peak in the December 2012 timetable but the opposition was too great for it to happen in the end.

I remember it appearing in the consultation timetable that they put out earlier in the year.

Referring again to atomicdanny's post, whether Southeastern would double the HS1 service to 2tph with attaching/detaching at Ashford is moot - they seem to want to shout loudly about the Canterbury to London time being as low as possible.

What would they prefer? A headline journey time, or a more frequent service? I'd prefer the latter myself.

 

[Zoe]

I agree. There's absolutely no need for the off-peak Ramsgate-Victoria service to call at those two stations.

Isn't one reason for these station calls that without them the trains would arrive too early at Rochester and so conflict with a HS1 service?

 

[JamesRowden]

The gap that I notice in the East Kent rail services is that there is not a direct service between Dover and Margate (off-peak) (present waiting times while changing trains at Ramgate are 32 minutes towards Margate and 19 minutes towards Dover) and there is only 1tph between Dover and Ramsgate (off-peak). Perhaps it would be good if a CharingCross/Victoria/StPancras service was extended to fill this gap.

 

[craigwilson]

Isn't one reason for these station calls that without them the trains would arrive too early at Rochester and so conflict with a HS1 service?

Possibly, as there's a 6 min gap between the high speed passing through Rochester (bound for Faversham) and the mainline train following it at present. Obviously wouldn't be an issue in the London-bound direction though.
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The gap that I notice in the East Kent rail services is that there is not a direct service between Dover and Margate (off-peak) (present waiting times while changing trains at Ramgate are 32 minutes towards Margate and 19 minutes towards Dover) and there is only 1tph between Dover and Ramsgate (off-peak). Perhaps it would be good if a CharingCross/Victoria/StPancras service was extended to fill this gap.

Such a change would be very useful for my commute if it happened in the peak too!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'd like to know where you got that figure from because anyone who's travelled on the service, as I have, would tell you it's a lot faster than 77mph. I'm not sure a train running at 77mph would fit onto the HS line without holding other trains up.

I think he's quoting the start to stop average speed for the journey?

 

[RichJF]

There were also 2 slow trains per hour which just went between Ashford and Charing Cross. These stopped at all stations between Ashford and Tonbridge, then the normal stops after that. Hildenburgh, Sevenoaks, Orpington etc etc.

I seem to remember there also being a service from Victoria that trundled down via Otford/Lenham into Ashford and used class 465/466's, terminating at CBW.

Personally, I think when we see DB or other cross-channel services using HS1, it may slow down or limit the service patterns & hopefully we might get a 1tph fast Ashford service.

 

[craigwilson]

I seem to remember there also being a service from Victoria that trundled down via Otford/Lenham into Ashford and used class 465/466's, terminating at CBW.

There's a single early service that still does the other direction

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W48881/2013/01/02/advanced

and also a early Maidstone - Canterbury service:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W48894/2013/01/02/advanced

which appears to be formed from the train that does the early morning service from Victoria - Bromley South (calling at Wandsworth Road, Clapham High Street, Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye en route):

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W43209/2013/01/02/advanced

It then runs ECS from Bromley South to Maidstone to form the Canterbury service.

 

[Cletus]

There's been a couple of minor improvements this month to the HS1 service from Dover Priory.

The trains now leave from platform 1 which is the platform nearest the station entrance. I always thought this should happen anyway, HS1 being a premium service.

It now leaves xx45 (from 8.45am) instead of xx44, reducing the journey time by a minute.

It's the local wish that Dover Priory - St Pancras services be reduced to the magical 1 hour time.
I suppose the only way at the moment would be to remove one of the two Folkestone stops and remove Ebbsfleet International from the service?

 

[TheJRB]

It now leaves xx45 (from 8.45am) instead of xx44, reducing the journey time by a minute.

The same thing has happened with the Marshlink line departures from Ashford which are now xx:33 instead of xx:32 (the Ashford bound services appear to run to the same schedule as before though).

It's the local wish that Dover Priory - St Pancras services be reduced to the magical 1 hour time.
I suppose the only way at the moment would be to remove one of the two Folkestone stops and remove Ebbsfleet International from the service?

I've read that before. I've been to both Folkestone West and Central stations off-peak and Central seems more popular. It's tough though as despite their proximity, they serve two distinct areas.

Ebbsfleet is an interesting one. It always has seemed to be more politically popular than truly practical. For one there's no such place as the mystical 'Ebbsfleet' (they should have called it Northfleet but then I suppose it wouldn't have sounded as romantic!). Secondly it always seems really quiet apart from when football fans are heading home from London (they must use it as a parkway station) and also during the Olympics. I've never seen it busy at other times and most peak services from Ashford skip it anyway. Plus it's also stolen a lot of Ashford's Eurostar services. :roll:

 

[Cletus]

I remember reading that Folkestone West is included because of it's parking facilities, which Folkestone Central has a lack of.

Arrival times at Dover Priory haven't changed either. These trains nearly always arrive about 2 minutes early, helps with punctuality figures I suppose?

The other (probably impractical now) thing I would like to see is the HS1 trains join the high speed line outside Folkestone (Dollands Moor area). I never really understood why there's no connection, apart from cost which surely out of the whole project wouldn't have been that much?

 

[JamesRowden]

The same thing has happened with the Marshlink line departures from Ashford which are now xx:33 instead of xx:32 (the Ashford bound services appear to run to the same schedule as before though).

The marshlink services becoming one minute faster is due to the removal of a permanent speed restriction. According to Network Rail's Route Specification document the ongoing upgrade of the Marshlink will lead to a semi-fast DMU journey time of 35 minutes between Hastings and Ashford by 2021 (rather than the current 41 minutes). This would make a journey from St Pancras to Hastings via Ashford 72 (37+35) minutes plus connection time. The present Charing Cross to Hastings journeys times are 92 (semi-fast) and 105 (stopping) minutes. The Route specification document predicts the stopping service to become 3 minutes faster by 2021. Presently the route from Hastings to London via HS1 is not any faster than via Tonbridge due to a southbound offpeak connection time of 13 minutes, a northbound connection time of 25 minues and it running at the same time as the semi-fast Hastings to Charing Cross service. With the planned speed improvements, I think that it would only require an alteration to the junction at Ashford (to allow HS1-Marshlink services) and OHLE (over-head-line-electrification) of the Marslink to allow a 2 tph service along the Marshlink made up of the present Brighton-Ashford service (would probably need to be dual voltage) and a StPancras-Ashford-Hastings-Eastbourne service (replacing the Eastborune-Ore part of the current Victoria-Ore service [since via HS1 would be over 30 minutes faster for passengers travelling from Bexhill to London]) which therefore after Ashford would stop at:

• 
  Rye
  Ore
  Hastings
  St Leonards Warrior Square
  Bexhill
  Collington
  Cooden Beach
  Pevensy and Westham
  Hampden Park
  Eastbourne

Apart from the journey time improvements my idea would also have a small effect on reducing Brighton and Tonbridge mainline capacity isues. I do not think that the effect of the loss of direct services between locations on the Brighton mainline and those east of Eastbourne would be enough to justify keeping the Victoria-Ore services if HS1 services ran to Eastbourne considering the opportunities to change at Eastbourne/Hampden Park or Brighton.

Ebbsfleet is an interesting one. It always has seemed to be more politically popular than truly practical. For one there's no such place as the mystical 'Ebbsfleet' (they should have called it Northfleet but then I suppose it wouldn't have sounded as romantic!). Secondly it always seems really quiet apart from when football fans are heading home from London (they must use it as a parkway station) and also during the Olympics. I've never seen it busy at other times and most peak services from Ashford skip it anyway. Plus it's also stolen a lot of Ashford's Eurostar services. :roll:

Perhaps those Ebbsfleet Eurostar services shoud stop at Ashford instead of Ebbsfleet since people could catch a Southeastern HS1 service to Ashford to make a connection with the Eurostar and it would be in the correct direction (unlike those from South East Kent wanting to travel on Eurostar and having to double back via Ebbsfleet/London). Or maybe a Eurostar stop a Folkestone would make more sense.

 

[Bungle73]

Perhaps those Ebbsfleet Eurostar services shoud stop at Ashford instead of Ebbsfleet since people could catch a Southeastern HS1 service to Ashford to make a connection with the Eurostar and it would be in the correct direction (unlike those from South East Kent wanting to travel on Eurostar and having to double back via Ebbsfleet/London). Or maybe a Eurostar stop a Folkestone would make more sense.

What about those of us in North Kent? Ashford's not very convenient. Ebbsfleet is.