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My ideas for London - Kent timetable changes

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JamesRowden

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What about those of us in North Kent? Ashford's not very convenient. Ebbsfleet is.

How much of a problem is it to change at
Tonbridge/Ebbsfleet/Maidstone/Canterbury/Ramsgate? (There is also the 666 bus between Faversham and Ashford)

If a Eurostar stop were put at Folkestone then a Victoria-Dover service could be extended to it.
 
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craigwilson

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...I think that it would only require an alteration to the junction at Ashford (to allow HS1-Marshlink services) and OHLE (over-head-line-electrification) of the Marslink to allow a 2 tph service along the Marshlink made up of the present Brighton-Ashford service (would probably need to be dual voltage) and a StPancras-Ashford-Hastings-Eastbourne service

You couldn't do any serious capacity improvement on the Marshlink without doubling it first, never mind any of that.

Even then, I'm not sure sending HS1 services down there is in anyway part of Southeastern's gameplan.
 

Mintona

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You couldn't do any serious capacity improvement on the Marshlink without doubling it first, never mind any of that.

Even then, I'm not sure sending HS1 services down there is in anyway part of Southeastern's gameplan.

I'm not even sure if they could. Is there any connection from the CTRL over to the marshlink line?
 

JamesRowden

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You couldn't do any serious capacity improvement on the Marshlink without doubling it first, never mind any of that.

Even then, I'm not sure sending HS1 services down there is in anyway part of Southeastern's gameplan.

Because Rye station is doubled and Appledore to Ashford is doubled. It is the time that a train takes between Ore and Rye that limits capacity (along which there is presently at least one 15 mph speed limit [due to unsupervised unbarriered non-alarmed level crossings]). The single tracked section between Ore and Rye is 10 miles. The critical journey time for being able to run 2tph in each direction alternatley is 15 minutes (average between the two services). Obviously in order to create a reliable timetable there needs so be a buffer. If the trains could operate from Ore to Rye at an averge time of 13 minutes, there would be a buffer of 4 minutes at Ore (because Rye has single track sections at both sides of the station no buffer can be created here [as is the situation with the present 1 tph service]). The average speed required between Ore and Rye to create this buffer is 46 mph. According to Network Rail's Route Specification document the line speed should be 75 mph in 2021. There are three stations along the single tracked section between Ore and Rye. One of them, Doleham, only gets a few trains a day. Three Oaks and Winchelsea recieve a train every 2 hours. Doleham station does not seem to serve a community that Three Oaks and Winchelsea doesn't and so it does not need to be served when 2tph are running. In my plan Three Oaks and Winchelsea would retain their 1tp2h service. Looking at these figures I think that my service pattern would be robust if the line were electrified (and it might work with DMUs). There would be merit in double tracking some of the track directly west of Rye station to allow a greater time buffer to be installed into the timetable and to increase the capacity of the single track section to Ore.
 
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Kentish Paul

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At the present time it is impossible to connect HS1 to the Marshlink line with direct trains. To get from the domestic HS1 platforms (5&6) would require a double reversal or a complete rebuilding of Ashford 'D' junction.

To get from platform 5 to the Hastings line would require a flat crossing across 5 lines and the east berthing sidings. You could also try the same at the west end of the station to enable the HS1 chords to connect to platforms 1 & 2. There doesn't appear to be the space for flyovers etc, and the cost would be phenomenal just to avoid a change of train
 

DynamicSpirit

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If you did want to build a link/flyover to allow high speed trains onto the Marshlink line, would it be cheaper and possible to build it as a link from HS1 to the slow Ashford-Maidstone line, around the spot a couple of miles west of Ashford where the two lines come very close together? Presumably the main technical problem would be the couple of miles of dual voltage required on the slow line (either that or an at-speed voltage change on the new linking line - dunno if that's possible?). Trains would also be slowed by a couple of minutes by being on the slow lines for a couple of additional miles, but I'm guess that would still lead to faster journey times than requiring people to change at Ashford.
 

notadriver

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Rumour is the line from Ashford to Ramsgate is to be electrified with AC overhead wires and track improvements to allow 90 mph running. It would be pointless to introduce 90 mph running without AC overhead wires in my opinion.
 

JamesRowden

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Rumour is the line from Ashford to Ramsgate is to be electrified with AC overhead wires and track improvements to allow 90 mph running. It would be pointless to introduce 90 mph running without AC overhead wires in my opinion.

In Networks Rail's 'Route Specifiactions 2012 - Kent and High Speed 1' (that has last been edited on 3/01/13 according to the pdf that can be downloaded) it predicts that a scheme which is presently being developed (to be implemented in CP5) will reduce the '(fast)' journey time between Ashford and Ramsgate from 37 minutes to 30 minutes in ten years time. It does not predict there being over head electrification along the line in ten years time.
 

465fan

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Right, here I come.

Remembering under Connex (Yes, those wonderful people) services from Victoria towards Faversham, Dover and Ramsgate were actually very carefully (and well) planned. There would be 4 departures per hour, 2 to Ramsgate, and 2 to Dover. There was no portion working required with splits or attachments at Faversham, why? Well, the Ramsgate services would call at Bromley, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne and Faversham prior to calling points via Margate. The Dover services would stop at Bromley, then the intermediate stations to Faversham. Why is this good, I hear you say? Canterbury East is lumbered with an all stations service? Not quite, the Dover portion would arrive at Faversham a couple of minutes ahead of the Ramsgate portion (which would have left Victoria some 25 minutes later), passengers would chop and change between trains, then the Ramsgate train would toodle off. The Dover would then head off as well. The same process worked in the opposite direction.

What happened next was, as we know, southeastern (under the SRA) introducing the 2 trains per hour from Victoria to Ramsgate & Dover, splitting at Faversham. The Class 465/9s would then fill in with another 2 trains per hour calling at intermediates, and that terminated at Faversham. Well, it was alright, but when you consider the Ramsgate trains under Connex were 8 car, and the Dovers were 4 car, you technically had 16 cars per hour from Victoria to Ramsgate and 8 to Dover. With portion working, the trains are "shorter" and are more congested. The 465/9s on their Faversham trains were absolutely deathly quiet beyond Gillingham, also.

Where would I go, though?
The Southeastern High Speed service from St Pancras runs to Faversham. This is "fair enough", but it could obviously be altered to take into account North Kent passengers. I would opt for a different method of operations.

Trains would depart from Victoria at XX00 and XX30. They would be separate services: The XX00 would be for Ramsgate, the XX30 for Dover. Both would be formed of 8 coaches. Similarly, '395s' would pull away from St Pancras, again, separate trains for Ramsgate and Dover in half hourly increments. The services from Victoria would call at Bromley South, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne and Faversham (insert Newington and Teynham as required). The situation should be that, at Faversham, a Victoria to Ramsgate and St Pancras to Dover, or vice versa, would arrive at roughly the same time, and leave at roughly the same time, with a short dwell for passenger connections. The services from St Pancras would pick up the current "semi fast" calling patterns to Dover and Ramsgate, the services from Victoria would call at all stations. This way, the more expensive train is a choice, and not a forced deal. You would then run 2 trains per hour from Victoria to Gillingham, stopping at "all shacks" from Bromley South to Gillingham.

In respect of Ashford, Tunbridge Wells, Hastings and more. I am thinking outside the box on this one:

1 train per hour from London Charing Cross to Margate (via Canterbury West) and Dover Priory, splitting at Ashford International. This would call at West Malling, Maidstone East, Bearsted and Ashford. Journey times should go up, and you offer a new "express" for Maidstone to London, notably London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross. The other 1 train per hour from London Charing Cross would be for Ramsgate (via Dover Priory) and Canterbury West.

2 trains per hour from London Victoria to Maidstone East, of which one continues to Canterbury West picking up local stations such as Hollingbourne or Lenham.

2 trains per hour from London Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells & Ashford; splitting or attaching at Tonbridge, formed of an 8 car Class 465/9 as far as Tonbridge. This would then call at all stations towards Ashford International. This preserves paths in the London area.

2 trains per hour from London Charing Cross to Hastings, calling at whichever stations are appropriate.

Trains from St Pancras towards Ashford would be every 30 minutes, preferably one train to Margate via Canterbury West and one train for Dover Priory via Folkestone Central.

Anybody wish to advance on that?
 

Bungle73

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Right, here I come.

Remembering under Connex (Yes, those wonderful people) services from Victoria towards Faversham, Dover and Ramsgate were actually very carefully (and well) planned. There would be 4 departures per hour, 2 to Ramsgate, and 2 to Dover. There was no portion working required with splits or attachments at Faversham, why? Well, the Ramsgate services would call at Bromley, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne and Faversham prior to calling points via Margate. The Dover services would stop at Bromley, then the intermediate stations to Faversham. Why is this good, I hear you say? Canterbury East is lumbered with an all stations service? Not quite, the Dover portion would arrive at Faversham a couple of minutes ahead of the Ramsgate portion (which would have left Victoria some 25 minutes later), passengers would chop and change between trains, then the Ramsgate train would toodle off. The Dover would then head off as well. The same process worked in the opposite direction.

What happened next was, as we know, southeastern (under the SRA) introducing the 2 trains per hour from Victoria to Ramsgate & Dover, splitting at Faversham. The Class 465/9s would then fill in with another 2 trains per hour calling at intermediates, and that terminated at Faversham. Well, it was alright, but when you consider the Ramsgate trains under Connex were 8 car, and the Dovers were 4 car, you technically had 16 cars per hour from Victoria to Ramsgate and 8 to Dover. With portion working, the trains are "shorter" and are more congested. The 465/9s on their Faversham trains were absolutely deathly quiet beyond Gillingham, also.
Are you sure about that? As far as I remember the trains have always split at Faversham, with a separate Faversham stopping service (before the introduction of the HS services), at least since I moved here in 1998. Indeed I know for a fact that the splitting was not introduced under SRA-run southeastern because when they introduced the 375s (which were introduced under Connex) they had enormous trouble trying to couple them at Faversham and they were always late arriving here.
 

JamesRowden

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In respect of Ashford, Tunbridge Wells, Hastings and more. I am thinking outside the box on this one:

1 train per hour from London Charing Cross to Margate (via Canterbury West) and Dover Priory, splitting at Ashford International. This would call at West Malling, Maidstone East, Bearsted and Ashford. Journey times should go up, and you offer a new "express" for Maidstone to London, notably London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross. The other 1 train per hour from London Charing Cross would be for Ramsgate (via Dover Priory) and Canterbury West.

2 trains per hour from London Victoria to Maidstone East, of which one continues to Canterbury West picking up local stations such as Hollingbourne or Lenham.

2 trains per hour from London Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells & Ashford; splitting or attaching at Tonbridge, formed of an 8 car Class 465/9 as far as Tonbridge. This would then call at all stations towards Ashford International. This preserves paths in the London area.

2 trains per hour from London Charing Cross to Hastings, calling at whichever stations are appropriate.

Trains from St Pancras towards Ashford would be every 30 minutes, preferably one train to Margate via Canterbury West and one train for Dover Priory via Folkestone Central.

Anybody wish to advance on that?

An interesting idea. By joining up the Charing Cross to Ashford and Tunbridge Wells services only five of the six fast paths between Orpington and Tonbridge would be used. There should already be room on the fast tracks between London Bridge and Chislehurst for your Charing Cross - Maidstone - Ashford services (but there might be the issue of crossing moves). It is the fact that fast services share the double tracked section between Orpington and Sevenoaks with Charing Cross to Sevenoaks metro services (and the subsequent crossing moves) that limit the capacity.

I think one of the four car services per hour to Tunbridge Wells in your idea could be extended to Hastings (Ore Station) to run between the fast and slow services (filling the 42 minute gap at Hastings). The Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells part would run as the current Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells does (apart from the split at Tonbridge) and then after Tunbridge Wells stop at Battle, St Leonards Warrior Square, Hastings and Ore. The fast Charing Cross to Hastings service could then be made to run fast from London Bridge to Tonbridge with a Charing Cross to Tonbridge, Maidstone Barracks or Strood service running just infront/behind. The four single tracked tunnels between Tonbridge and Battle may causes complications with my ideas but the single tracked tunnel between Tonbridge and High Brooms presently has four trains per hour in each direction.
 

Clip

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Are you sure about that? As far as I remember the trains have always split at Faversham, with a separate Faversham stopping service (before the introduction of the HS services), at least since I moved here in 1998. Indeed I know for a fact that the splitting was not introduced under SRA-run southeastern because when they introduced the 375s (which were introduced under Connex) they had enormous trouble trying to couple them at Faversham and they were always late arriving here.

I used to live in Margate from 1990 till when ever and I have always remembered them splitting especially with the new trains... I agree with you.
 

Southern

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Dug out an old timetable from 2003 and found the following:

xx:05/xx:35* Victoria - Ramsgate, calling at Bromley South, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whitstable, Herne Bay, Birchington-on-Sea, Margate and Broadstairs.

xx:11**/xx:41 Victoria - Dover, calling Bromley South, St Mary Cray and all stations to Faversham, then Canterbury East.

*Called at all station Faversham - Ramsgate
** Called at all stations Faversham - Dover

Only the 1620, 1706, 1753 and 1813 from Victoria are shown as dividing at Faversham. In the other direction, the 0815 Ramsgate/0815 Dover Priory is the only service shown as attaching at Faversham. There were also 4 trains a day (2 up, 2 down) that ran non - stop from Victoria - Chatham.
 

Kentish Paul

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This has been flipping back and forwards for years. Have been in Ashford since 1989, then all fasts went via Tonbridge. Then it changed to the fasts going via Maidstone East and Chislehurst to Charing Cross (or later to Cannon Street, Off peak) then disbanded. When I was commuting I Loved the summer evening diverts ( maybe 3 times a year) in the late 90's from Cannon St to Ashford via Chislehurst, Swanley, Otford and Maidstone East. So lovely to look at the Weald of Kent compared to the normal route via Sevonoaks, Tonbridge, Paddock wood etc. Nice though they were, the trips via Maidstone were slow.

Even before HS1 you could have travelled from Ashford to London Bridge in not much mor then 50 minutes.

I remenber one trip home on what I think was the 17:13 ex Warterloo East non stop to Tonbridge.(It was an 8 coach CEP} It arrived in Tonbridge (after going like a madman) 8 minutes early after scaring every one to death on the descent of Hildenborough Bank. After a lenghty wait at Tonbridge it proceeded as the normal all stations to Ashford. I always assumed it was a VIP trip to get somebody somewhere very quickly.

If you add this to a non stop Tonbridge / Ashford run I believe you could get a London Bridge/ Ashford timing down to to 45 minutes (with no stop at Tonbridge.) (I've done Tonbridge to Ashford (when it was non stop) in less than 20 mins.) So if you add it all together a 50min timing from Ashford to at least London Bridge is entirely possible.
 

465fan

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An interesting idea. By joining up the Charing Cross to Ashford and Tunbridge Wells services only five of the six fast paths between Orpington and Tonbridge would be used. There should already be room on the fast tracks between London Bridge and Chislehurst for your Charing Cross - Maidstone - Ashford services (but there might be the issue of crossing moves). It is the fact that fast services share the double tracked section between Orpington and Sevenoaks with Charing Cross to Sevenoaks metro services (and the subsequent crossing moves) that limit the capacity.

I think one of the four car services per hour to Tunbridge Wells in your idea could be extended to Hastings (Ore Station) to run between the fast and slow services (filling the 42 minute gap at Hastings). The Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells part would run as the current Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells does (apart from the split at Tonbridge) and then after Tunbridge Wells stop at Battle, St Leonards Warrior Square, Hastings and Ore. The fast Charing Cross to Hastings service could then be made to run fast from London Bridge to Tonbridge with a Charing Cross to Tonbridge, Maidstone Barracks or Strood service running just infront/behind. The four single tracked tunnels between Tonbridge and Battle may causes complications with my ideas but the single tracked tunnel between Tonbridge and High Brooms presently has four trains per hour in each direction.

That's bloody complicated. To be honest, I'd alter it so the Medway Valley services run half hourly from Strood to Tonbridge, vice hourly beyond Maidstone West.

The other thing about the modern railway is making sure that things become more dependable: your plan there is a bit much!
 

465fan

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View attachment Kent Mainline.xlsx

Here is where I would go.

The best way to achieve the half hourly frequency on the Redhill to Tonbridge line would be an 8 car, half hourly train from London Bridge. The rear 4 coaches would split off at Redhill and run to Reigate. Improvements for all!

As you can see, my improvements would make the southeastern High Speed more accessible to North Kent, less to act as a premium service, but more to provide a different destination. The services from Faversham to Victoria then run more quickly from Rochester. Sole Street and Farningham Road regain their half hourly service.

There is a half hourly service from London Victoria to Ashford, one of which provides extra capacity to the busier stations such as Lenham. That then continues to Canterbury West. Looking at departure times from Ashford, there is a perfect quarter hourly spread to Canterbury.

My original idea for running trains down from Charing Cross via Maidstone isn't continued. I think the added journey time has little benefit. Perhaps a new service from Charing Cross to Maidstone East could be considered in the future, although a new service would run to Maidstone from Thameslink.

The services to the Tunbridge Wells / 1066 route are thence improved.

I hope you enjoy!
 

JamesRowden

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Here is where I would go.

The best way to achieve the half hourly frequency on the Redhill to Tonbridge line would be an 8 car, half hourly train from London Bridge. The rear 4 coaches would split off at Redhill and run to Reigate. Improvements for all!

I dissagree. I think that a semi-fast service running Reading-Guildord-Redhill-Tonbridge-Ashford-(possibly beyond) would be far more usefull. It would be the faster to Reading from Tonbridge than travelling via London and only 20 minutes slower than Ashford to Reading via HS1.

Reading-Redhill (semi-fast) = 64 mins
Reversing at Redhill = 5 mins
Redhill-Tonbridge (fast) = 19 mins (approximate guessing 12 mins saved by not stopping at 5 stations with diesel rather than electric stopping service)
Tonbridge = 1 min
Tonbridge-Ashford (fast) = 25 mins (approximate guessing 12 mins saved by not stopping at 5 stations with diesel rather than electric stopping service)

Reading-Tonbridge (via Redhill) = 88 mins
Reading-Tonbridge (via London) = 94 mins

Reading-Ashford (via Redhill) = 114 mins
Reading-Ashford (via HS1) = 94 mins

With the underpass being brought back into service to the East of Reading station it could even run as a Crosscountry service (and have less stops).

My original idea for running trains down from Charing Cross via Maidstone isn't continued. I think the added journey time has little benefit. Perhaps a new service from Charing Cross to Maidstone East could be considered in the future, although a new service would run to Maidstone from Thameslink.

In Network Rail's Kent Route Specification 2012 document (published this month) it expects there to be line speed improvements conducted in CP5 to speed the stopping service up by 5 minutes between Swanley and Ashford. A faster service would speed up by at least this much if not more.

The services to the Tunbridge Wells / 1066 route are thence improved.

You have added more stops to the semi-fast Hastings service and made a Charing Cross to Ashford service run faster than the Hastings services between Tonbridge and London Bridge. When considering that Hastings does not recieve High Speed services unlike those places in South East Kent that your service will serve, and the size of Hastings compared to those places (especially when you add the population of Bexhill which is less than 200 meters away from Hastings) minimising the journey time between London and Hastings (and subsequently Tunbridge Wells) should be a greater priority and the services from Ashford should be better suited to serving Orpington and Sevenoaks.

Tunbridge Wells 56,500 (2006)
Hastings 86,400 (2008)
Bexhill 41,173 (2007)
Maidstone 138,959 (2001)
Ashford 58,936 (2001)
Folkestone 53,411 (2001)
Dover 28,156 (2001)
Canterbury 43,431 (2001)
Ramsgate 39,639 (2001)
Broadstairs 24,370 (2001)
Margate 57,008 (2001)
 

Mintona

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View attachment 13281

Here is where I would go.

The best way to achieve the half hourly frequency on the Redhill to Tonbridge line would be an 8 car, half hourly train from London Bridge. The rear 4 coaches would split off at Redhill and run to Reigate. Improvements for all!

As you can see, my improvements would make the southeastern High Speed more accessible to North Kent, less to act as a premium service, but more to provide a different destination. The services from Faversham to Victoria then run more quickly from Rochester. Sole Street and Farningham Road regain their half hourly service.

There is a half hourly service from London Victoria to Ashford, one of which provides extra capacity to the busier stations such as Lenham. That then continues to Canterbury West. Looking at departure times from Ashford, there is a perfect quarter hourly spread to Canterbury.

My original idea for running trains down from Charing Cross via Maidstone isn't continued. I think the added journey time has little benefit. Perhaps a new service from Charing Cross to Maidstone East could be considered in the future, although a new service would run to Maidstone from Thameslink.

The services to the Tunbridge Wells / 1066 route are thence improved.

I hope you enjoy!

They're going to clash with all sorts of suburban trains around London, so you'll need to alter all those timetables as well.
 

Southern

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When considering that Hastings does not recieve High Speed services unlike those places in South East Kent that your service will serve, and the size of Hastings compared to those places (especially when you add the population of Bexhill which is less than 200 meters away from Hastings) minimising the journey time between London and Hastings (and subsequently Tunbridge Wells) should be a greater priority and the services from Ashford should be better suited to serving Orpington and Sevenoaks.

That would make them even slower than they already are. To be honest, I'd actually quite like to see all Hastings/Kent Coast services omit Orpington, Sevenoaks and Hildenborough. Perfectly suitable connections are available at Tonbridge and it might fill up the Orpington/Sevenoaks stopping services a bit, which always seem ridiculously under patronised whenever I've seen them.
 

465fan

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1 The Thameslink Programme

Having read the news articles and looked at the reasons behind the Thameslink rolling stock order going to Siemens, it would seem that the project is in a very precarious situation. I do, however, believe that the rolling stock order is very rightly going to Siemens.

The Class 350 multiple units in use with London Midland are a testament to the reliable, and high quality product which Siemens have produced for the British market. The units of a ‘/1’ designation can have dual voltage capability, as demonstrated when they worked with Southern. Despite knowing that the Bombardier Class 377 is a high quality product, recent incidents and problems with delivery dates and build have shown that such a high pressure and large order could be problematic for Derby to fulfil. I would recommend immediately ordering Class 350 units for the Thameslink route, simply altering their interior.

Further consideration needs to be made to the new routes and timetable which will then be offered. I am not sure who made the important decisions about them, nor who carried out the various studies, but I can see only flaws.

Four trains per hour from Brighton to Bedford is highly important, and should be retained. I would like to now detail further options and alternatives.

1.1 Horsham, Three Bridges, Tonbridge, Reigate and Redhill
A popular half hourly service currently exists from Horsham to London Bridge via Gatwick Airport, Redhill and East Croydon. To simply alter the destination to somewhere North of London, particularly considering it would continue to run via the ever popular London Bridge interchange, is highly recommendable.

An additional service from Three Bridges only, however, seems to be an improper decision. Up and coming markets, such as Redhill and Coulsdon, do need additional trains to a half hourly Thameslink service. At present, Reigate’s passenger usage is rising rapidly. I would therefore anticipate that an excellent use of current capacity over the Redhill line would be a half hourly service from the Thameslink route to Reigate & Tonbridge via Edenbridge. This returns the Redhill to Tonbridge line to a half hourly frequency, and improves services from Reigate. To this end, stations such as Redhill, Purley and Coulsdon receive a quarter hourly service, each formed of eight coaches, through the Thameslink route.

1.2 Caterham, Tattenham Corner and East Grinstead
Caterham and Tattenham Corner are not, considering their passenger usage (and proximity to other rail routes), suitable Thameslink destinations. Their off peak passenger usage is exceptionally low comparative to a number of alternatives across the South East. I would, however, provide East Grinstead with two trains per hour from the Thameslink route all day, as stations such as Sanderstead, Upper Warlingham and Oxted are experiencing a rapid rise in passenger numbers. Platform lengths also limit the length of trains.

1.3 Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells
Tunbridge Wells is currently seen as a peak hour only destination for the Thameslink route. I do not believe that this is a worthy option, particularly when the route currently receives four trains per hour from London’s Charing Cross in the off peak period. In order to prevent overlap, I would offer two trains per hour from Charing Cross to Hastings (as now), and then two trains per hour from the Thameslink route to Tunbridge Wells. Calling this service at stations such as Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Chelsfield and Orpington would vastly increase their off peak ticket gates, and provide new journey opportunities.

1.4 The Catford Loop
The Catford Loop is shown as being the subject to a rise from the current two to six trains per hour; of which only two would call at all stations. Destinations would include Bellingham only, Sevenoaks via Swanley and Maidstone East. I do not believe that this is a good use of paths over the route, or a suitable alternative to other options. I would, however, provide four trains per hour from the Thameslink route, which would call at all stations from Denmark Hill to Bickley. Two trains would continue as now to Sevenoaks via Swanley. Two trains would then run to Petts Wood and Orpington, offering new journey opportunities from Petts Wood (another growing station). Four trains per hour would then run from London Victoria to Beckenham Junction, of which two would continue to Orpington via Bromley South.

1.5 Eltham, Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Dartford
According to the new maps and studies, routes via Bexleyheath or Sidcup to Dartford are fully excluded from the Thameslink Programme’s new scope. I do not, at all, believe this to be a wise option, particularly as platform lengths will allow 12 car operation.

The Bexleyheath line and the Sidcup line both serve vast off peak markets, with connections to important other infrastructure such as the Docklands Light Railway. Stations such as Dartford provide onward connections to Gravesend, Gillingham and the “Fasttrack” bus to Ebbsfleet International or Bluewater. To this end, I would fully anticipate that four trains per hour run from the Thameslink route to Dartford. Two of these would run via Bexleyheath, and two via Sidcup. The service via Sidcup would, as now, run onward to Gravesend.

1.6 The Great Northern route
The new proposals implicate four trains per hour running via all applicable local stations to Welwyn Garden City. I fully believe that this is an improper use of capacity across that route, particularly as I would be looking to offer the Welwyn Garden City and Hertford Loop stations a different alternative.

I do, however, believe that four trains per hour should run to each of Cambridge and Peterborough. Two trains per hour would operate in a “semi-local” calling pattern, including Sandy, Arlesey, Knebworth, Welwyn North, Hatfield and Potters Bar. The other two would operate in a “semi-fast” calling pattern calling only at Huntingdon, St Neots and Biggleswade before a non-stop run to Finsbury Park. The burgeoning markets of Huntingdon, St Neots and Biggleswade, both of which receive a very poor off peak service, should be provided with such a new form of service to encourage rapid off peak travel to London. In respect of services from Cambridge, I would anticipate two trains per hour calling at all stations to Stevenage, and two trains per hour calling only at Royston and Letchworth Garden City (before running fast to Finsbury Park).

By removing Thameslink services from local stations along the Hertford Loop and East Coast routes to Hertford North, Welwyn and Stevenage, I would turn these routes over to London Overground operation. Four trains per hour would operate to Welwyn Garden City, and four trains per hour would operate to Hertford North (two of which would continue to Letchworth). London Overground would then be encouraged to use Moorgate as their terminus at all times of the day, seven days a week, in order that connections can be made by passengers at Highbury & Islington for the wider Overground network and the Victoria line, and also at Moorgate with the Northern line. New trains would also be put in place, arguably additional Class 378 units, and the improvement in timetable and stock would surely improve the passenger numbers throughout.

Infrastructure improvements to the south of the East Coast Main Line would also facilitate this timetabling.

1.7 The Midland Main Line
The Midland Main Line has always been the natural home of the Thameslink, and with obvious population centres such as St Albans, Luton and Bedford, and with Luton Airport, it is important for this to remain the case.

Four off peak journeys per hour would continue to be provided from Bedford to Brighton. Subsequent to that, four off peak journeys per hour would operate from Luton, calling at all local stations to Kentish Town. These services would operate to Dartford via Bexleyheath and Gravesend via Sidcup.

Subsequent to this, four trains per hour would operate from Cricklewood, to Sevenoaks via Catford (and Swanley) and to Orpington via Catford. Following a recent visit to West Hampstead Power Signal Box, it would appear that improvements to the Cricklewood Depot complex would allow for additional services to arrive and berth there, prior to departing once more for the South.

1.8 Additional peak hour services
I would propose that additional peak hour services operate from Bedford (stock from Cauldwell Depot) and from Finsbury Park, St Pancras or West Hampstead (stock from Cricklewood and Hornsey Depots) to Ashford International via Maidstone East, Gillingham or Rochester via Swanley, Gillingham or Rochester via Sidcup or Bexleyheath and Orpington or Sevenoaks via Grove Park.

2 Crossrail

The Crossrail route will be even more revolutionary than the Thameslink route, thanks to its wide and varying interchange options across London. I would like to ensure that certain additional considerations are looked into.

The current route is shown as proposed to only operate to Maidenhead, however it is widely anticipated that these services will run to Reading.

Eight trains per hour would operate in the off peak period from Shenfield, which would call at all stations. Eight trains per hour would also operate from Abbey Wood. Four trains per hour would operate to Heathrow Airport Terminals 1, 2, 3 and 4. The Heathrow Express would, surely, not be able to compete with Crossrail, and I would propose that services from Heathrow Airport Terminals 1, 2, 3 and 5 run in a “fast” mode to Paddington. To this end, all eight trains per hour from Shenfield would run to Heathrow. Four of the eight trains from Abbey Wood would continue to Reading, with four terminating at Paddington or a station prior to Acton Main Line (I believe Ladbroke Grove or Old Oak Common are proposed stations).

In respect of the rolling stock required for Crossrail, I would thoroughly recommend that a more technologically advanced Class 378, with improved interior environment, be ordered from Bombardier. As services would be formed of twelve coaches, each unit should be six coaches long. To this end, weekend services could be formed of six coaches to allow for maintenance etc.

3 Wider considerations

Obviously, the Thameslink Programme will have a number of implications for service levels in the region.

3.1 East Coast Main Line and Hertford Loop
As I have previously detailed, I propose that services operating from local stations along the East Coast Main Line and Hertford Loop from Cambridge, Peterborough, Letchworth and Welwyn would operate either to the Thameslink route, or be operated by London Overground. To this end, there would be no requirement for another franchised operator on these routes.

3.2 Kings Lynn
Kings Lynn receives an hourly service to London Kings Cross. As Kings Lynn is not a viable option for Thameslink route services, I would propose that the current hourly “semi-fast” service from London Liverpool Street to Cambridge be extended to Kings Lynn, calling additionally at Waterbeach, Ely, Littleport, Downham Market and Watlington. This would allow the incumbent Greater Anglia franchise to bring this route ‘in house’. Greater Anglia currently use new (and passenger friendly) Class 379 multiple units for peak hour services from London Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn, and off peak services would be easily integrated.

Passengers may see the loss of Kings Cross as significant, however passengers would be able to change at Cambridge for four Thameslink route trains per hour, and also interchange at Tottenham Hale for London Underground’s Victoria line, or change at Liverpool Street for Crossrail. Further intelligent pathing could allow this train to run from Tottenham Hale to London Liverpool Street via Stratford, for even greater journey opportunities and interchange.

3.3 West London Line
I would propose that the incumbent service from South Croydon to Milton Keynes be significantly altered. I would propose that this service operate from Milton Keynes to Three Bridges, restoring connections from Gatwick Airport to the West Coast Main Line. Calling points would be (from Milton Keynes) Bletchley, Leighton Buzzard, Berkhamsted, Hemel Hempstead, Watford Junction, Harrow & Wealdstone, Shepherds Bush, Kensington Olympia, West Brompton, Imperial Wharf, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges.
Local services along the West Coast Main Line should be altered to accommodate the above service. Considerations could be made for two trains per hour from London Euston to Northampton, calling at all stations north of Watford Junction, replacing the incumbent service levels.

3.4 Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Woolwich lines
The route from London to Greenwich, Woolwich and Dartford currently receives a mix of stopping (six trains per hour via Greenwich) and semi fast (two trains per hour via Woolwich and Lewisham) services. Under my proposals, the route would receive a blanket eight stopping trains per hour, of which four would run via Greenwich, and four would run via Lewisham. This would allow connections to London Overground (at New Cross) and the Docklands Light Railway at Woolwich, Lewisham and Greenwich. Wider connections would also be available at Lewisham and Blackheath. Services which currently run at semi fast frequency to Abbey Wood, Woolwich and Lewisham from Gillingham would run via Bexleyheath.

The route from London to Sidcup, Bexley and Dartford receives four trains per hour, of which two start at London Cannon Street, and two start at London Charing Cross. Under my proposals, the stopping service from Gravesend, which presently runs to Charing Cross, would be diverted to Luton. The service to London Cannon Street would be retained, to allow connections with the London Overground East London Line at New Cross. I would also divert the service from London Victoria to Dartford via Bexleyheath to run via Sidcup, removing a conflicting movement at the flat junction at Lewisdham.

Finally, considering the route from London to Blackheath, Eltham, Bexleyheath and Dartford, the general trend of passenger numbers is continuing to rise, with off peak services increasingly busy. I previously mentioned that two trains per hour would operate from Luton to Dartford via Bexleyheath, and that two trains per hour would operate from London Charing Cross to Gillingham via Bexleyheath. To ensure the retention of six trains per hour along this route, I would ensure that services from London Cannon Street to Barnehurst.

3.5 Mid Kent and South Eastern Main Line (local)
In respect of the Mid Kent line, I would keep the two trains per hour for London Charing Cross, and two trains per hour for London Cannon Street.

South Eastern Main Line (local) services to Grove Park, Chislehurst, Orpington, Chelsfield and Sevenoaks are now at four trains per hour after the December 2009 timetable change. I would, however, alter the method of operations to allow two trains per hour from Sevenoaks to London Cannon Street via Lewisham, with two trains per hour from Orpington to London Charing Cross (fast from Hither Green to London Bridge). This allows Sevenoaks and Chelsfield a direct service to Lewisham once more.

3.6 Services via Sevenoaks and Tonbridge
As I have previously mentioned, four trains per hour to Tunbridge Wells should be retained. This would be formed of two trains per hour from Cambridge to Tunbridge Wells, and two trains per hour would run from London Charing Cross to Hastings. To compliment this, I would propose two trains per hour from London Charing Cross towards Ashford, calling at local stations from Tonbridge to Ashford. These services would be formed of eight coaches, of which four coaches would continue to Canterbury West and four coaches would continue to Ramsgate via Dover once per hour. The other service in the hour would divide with four coaches for Margate via Canterbury West, and four coaches would continue to Dover Priory.

3.7 Services via Longfield to Faversham, Ramsgate and Dover
This route has been given a great dis-service since the introduction of Southeastern’s High Speed services to Faversham only. Whilst the forthcoming proposal may seem farfetched, it does provide new journey opportunities and improve rail services across this route, which has received a decrease in passenger numbers since the introduction of High Speed One services.

At half hourly intervals, a train would depart from London Victoria for either Ramsgate via Herne Bay or Dover Priory via Canterbury East. These trains would be formed of eight carriages, and run fast from Bromley South to Rochester. Similarly, a six coach service would depart from St Pancras for either Ramsgate via Herne Bay or Dover Priory via Canterbury East. Two trains per hour would also operate from London Victoria to Gillingham, calling at local stations from St Mary Cray to Rochester. An example timetable is shown below in an attempt to demonstrate this idea:

St Pancras International 12:12 12:42
London Victoria 12:00 12:06 12:30 12:36
Bromley South 12:17 12:27 12:47 12:57
Fast Stop Fast Stop
Rochester 12:43 12:49 13:03 13:13 13:19 13:33
Chatham 12:46 12:52 13:06 13:16 13:22 13:36
Gillingham 12:50 12:56 13:10 13:20 13:26 13:40
Rainham 12:55 13:01 13:25 13:31
Newington 12:59 13:29
Sittingbourne 13:04 13:08 13:34 13:38
Teynham 13:08 13:38
Faversham a 13:13 13:16 13:43 13:46
Faversham d 13:18 13:20 13:48 13:50
Canterbury East 13:33 14:01
Semi Stop
Dover Priory 13:54 14:27
Stop Semi
Margate 13:48 14:18
Broadstairs 13:53 14:23
Ramsgate 13:59 14:28
The reasons for the ‘High Speed’ service calling at select stations between Faversham and Dover or Faversham and Ramsgate is to allow a choice for those passengers, whereas calling them at all stations would force certain customers to pay a surcharge. At Faversham, passengers would be allowed to cross platform interchange in each direction, and would be advertised as such.

In respect of the ‘High Speed’ service, I would recommend that in the new franchise the trains have their surcharges removed, in order to act solely as a service improvement, and not as a payable improvement. This works particularly well for customers travelling from North Kent, where journey time improvements are in fact minimal.

3.8 Maidstone East
Whilst I made reference to peak hour only services from the Thameslink route to the Maidstone East route to improve capacity, particularly as Tonbridge based drivers (who would have knowledge of the new trains for services to Tunbridge Wells) could operate them, the off peak service should be specially tailored to the needs of the route.

Before 2009, an off peak service from London Cannon Street to Ashford via Maidstone East, calling at particularly select stations, operated. It was poorly used owing to its use of Class 465 rolling stock, and also the fact that it didn’t run to more useful destinations such as Charing Cross or Waterloo East. The route does now, however, receive two trains per hour from Ashford to London Victoria.


There is a very particular method of operations which would see the incumbent ‘semi fast’ service from Victoria to Ashford International via Maidstone East run to Canterbury West, offering a clockface quarter hourly service from Ashford to Canterbury West, improving journeys to the University and Tourist city. The ‘stopping’ service to Ashford via Maidstone would run to Ashford only. I would therefore suggest that this service pattern be introduced.

3.9 Southeastern High Speed
I have previously mentioned that services from St Pancras International to Faversham should extend to Dover and Ramsgate, taking in Canterbury East on an hourly basis.

In respect of services to Southern and Eastern Kent, I would provide two trains per hour as now from St Pancras International to Ashford International, of which one train would be for Dover Priory, and one train would be for Margate via Canterbury West. The latter service would form part of a scheme to provide four trains per hour, at precise intervals, from Ashford to Canterbury West. As part of the new franchise, I would in fact remove the ‘High Speed’ surcharge, to encourage more journeys on the High Speed route and, more importantly, to provide less well-off passengers with a more viable express journey (the alternative being a local service via Tonbridge to London Bridge).

3.10 East Sussex
The Thameslink Programme originally implicated Eastbourne as an off peak journey destination. In order to maximise the benefit of Thameslink to passengers in East Sussex, I would retain the two trains per hour from London Victoria to Eastbourne (of which one continues to Hastings), the train dividing at Haywards Heath with a service to Littlehampton via Hove. Further train services would be two trains per hour from Brighton to Hastings (of which one train continues to Ashford International, and one train continues to Ore) and two trains per hour from Brighton to Seaford.

3.11 West Sussex
As the Thameslink Programme originally implicated Littlehampton as an off peak journey destination, I would ensure that routes in West Sussex also receive reasonable benefit from the Thameslink Programme’s associated timetable changes. Previously mentioned was the half hourly service from Victoria to Eastbourne & Littlehampton via Hove.

The services on the Arun Valley line are reasonably well thought out. I would improve the service by operating the ‘express’ portions to Southampton Central only, and not alternating them between Southampton to Portsmouth. Services from Brighton would operate half hourly to Portsmouth Harbour, and also half hourly from Brighton to Littlehampton (instead of West Worthing). The hourly service from Littlehampton to Portsmouth would be removed, replaced by a half hourly service from Littlehampton to Bognor Regis for local connectivity purposes only. By calling the services from Brighton to Littlehampton at stations such as Durrington and Goring, services from Brighton to Portsmouth can be ‘sped up’.

3.12 South London
I would immediately instate four trains per hour, calling at local stations, from London Victoria to Purley. This would extend to Tattenham Corner (two trains per hour) and Caterham (two trains per hour). I would then include four trains per hour from London Bridge to Purley (fast from London Bridge to Norwood Junction) which would extend from Purley to Tattenham Corner (two trains per hour) and Caterham (two trains per hour). This would simply improve the journey opportunities locally, and remove the wasteful and poorly used half hourly Purley to Tattenham Corner shuttle.

In respect of the Victoria to London Bridge via Crystal Palace service, I would continue this as two trains per hour. The services from Beckenham Junction and West Croydon to London Bridge would also continue. I would anticipate no other changes in the South London area, which include services from Sutton (via West Croydon) towards London, services via Mitcham Junction currently operated via Southern, and services to Epsom Downs, Epsom, Dorking and Horsham.

3.13 Wimbledon Loop
The Wimbledon Loop is facing difficult times as it loses its through service from the Thameslink route. I would, however, ensure the service pattern of two trains per hour in each direction is retained, running to London Blackfriars.

3.14 South West London
Services currently operated by South West Trains on a ‘local’ basis to destinations such as Chessington South, Hampton Court, Windsor and Guildford require little alteration, with the obvious exception of the new ten coach services which will shortly be available.

3.15 Great Western Main Line
As previously mentioned, I would propose the removal of the Heathrow Express, with a mixture of stopping and fast Crossrail services being available instead from Heathrow Airport. The Greenford Loop is an incredibly poor local link, and I would propose that, in order to preserve paths for Crossrail and freight services, the bay platform at West Ealing be re-instated. A half hourly service could then operate between West Ealing and Greenford. Cross platform interchanges for passengers heading towards London would be available at West Ealing. Associated station improvements at West Ealing should also be considered.

Having considered the electrification of the route from Reading to Newbury, it would be a highly plausible option to run two of the four trains per hour from Crossrail to Newbury. Supplementing this would be an hourly service, operated by a diesel multiple unit, from Reading to Westbury.

3.16 Chiltern Main Line
The incumbent situation, whereby Chiltern Railways are carving out their own direction, is proving to be highly successful. I would recommend they be allowed to, within reason, continue to enterprise.
3.17 London Overground
By offering the West London Line a half hourly service from Three Bridges to Milton Keynes Central, I would recommend that London Overground infill the frequency by providing four additional trains each hour to the two to be operated by the Southern franchise holder. This would provide a simple 10-minutely frequency from Shepherds Bush to Clapham Junction. Two of those trains per hour would run to Stratford, and two would run to Willesden Junction only. An additional four trains per hour would enter from Richmond, running to Stratford, providing six trains per hour from Willesden Junction to Stratford.

3.18 West Anglia and North East London
Infrastructure improvements are sorely required across this area. If services are to not be diverted via Seven Sisters in some circumstances to preserve paths, four tracking may be required from Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne in certain places. The Stansted Express does demand a large number of paths, hampering local development.

I believe that an intelligent use of capacity in the immediate term is to run Hertford East services via Seven Sisters to London Liverpool Street in a semi fast calling pattern, complimenting the existing services to Enfield Town and Cheshunt. The half hourly service from Stratford to Bishops Stortford should be extended in both directions to Cambridge (local stations) and to London Liverpool Street. The ‘Stansted Express’ should be reduced to a half hourly frequency, calling at the likes of Harlow Town and Bishops Stortford. This would allow paths for the proposed ‘Express’ to Cambridge and Kings Lynn hourly, calling at only at the largest stations on the route.

3.19 Essex Thameside
No intervention is required here.

4 The future of Rail in London

I read, frequently, horrifying articles that Transport for London could take control of far more rail services in the London area. London Overground has been successful because it has been allowed to improve a number of routes which cannot, seriously, form part of any other franchises.

The London Overground model is, honestly, incredible. The passenger usage figures across their respective routes have shot up thanks to better fares, more services and, most importantly, new (longer) trains. By manning stations throughout the day, and by inserting ticket barriers etc, passengers feel more secure and are more likely to travel for leisure and work.

To suggest that every franchise operating in the London area should adopt the model of manned stations (even through Ticket offices alone), better station lighting and presentation, ticket barriers and frequent revenue protection patrols, makes perfect sense. I would write details such as these into franchises to ensure the very best for London passengers.

I do not, with the exception of the stopping services to Welwyn and Hertford from Moorgate (which I mentioned in point 1.3) believe that any more services should be passed to the control of London Overground (or Transport for London). By continuing to fragment services out of London terminals, the likelihood of better service actually reduces. As I had previously mentioned, however, I would write London Overground style investment and station management into longer franchises.

For all franchises, such as Chiltern, Greater Anglia or South West Trains, I would provide only 25 (or longer) franchises. The Chiltern model has shown that investment comes about from private companies during longer tenures, and this would happen with all other regions.

In respect of the Thameslink route, I would, for 2018, merge the Thameslink aspect of First Capital Connect (including the services to Cambridge and Peterborough) with the incumbent Southern, Southeastern and Southeastern High Speed services into one franchise. This would last for at least 25 years. Careful franchise commitments in respect of service levels, with timetabling potentially handled from the Department, would ensure only the very best of passenger environments and value for money.

Transport for London, who wish to handle more London area ‘heavy rail’ services, could be used to provide advice on fares. This would ensure more opinions are heard to benefit the passenger.

I frequently travel on trains in the London and South East area, which is where I base a number of my customer focused (but equally technical) opinions. When travelling, and having to use severely run down stations (with Thameslink route stations such as Mill Hill Broadway and Hendon springing to mind), it becomes clear why passengers may not wish to use rail. Unstaffed stations, which have a very unsecure atmosphere in evenings, are not likely to attract new passengers to rail. Similarly, existing passengers dealing with constant fare rises will not be appreciative of under investment in stations.

I would also provide re-signalling on the route from Gospel Oak to Barking, along with electrification.

5 Franchises

I would propose the following franchises for the regions:

Anglia: Services from London Fenchurch Street and London Liverpool Street to destinations including (but not limited to) Southend, Enfield, Cambridge via Harlow, Clacton, Braintree, Norwich and Ipswich. This would also include services from Peterborough to Ipswich, Norwich to Cambridge, and local services across Suffolk and Norfolk.

Southern: Services currently operated by the Southern and Southeastern companies, as well as Thameslink services (which would run to Peterborough and Cambridge)

London Rail: Stratford to Richmond and Clapham, local services from Euston to Watford Junction via Wembley Central, Gospel Oak to Barking and Moorgate to Hertford North / Letchworth / Welwyn. I would also include Crossrail, and, as now, the East London line services from Highbury and Dalston towards Croydon and Clapham.

South West: As the current South West Trains franchise.

Chiltern: As the current Chiltern franchise. Added to this would be services on the East – West Rail link, from Reading to Bedford via Oxford, and Aylesbury to Milton Keynes.

Western: As the current Greater Western franchise, but excluding services from London to Reading (local), Heathrow Connect (which would be scrapped) and services from Reading to Oxford (which would transfer to Chiltern under the East West Rail link and be operated by new electric trains).

Franchises such as London Midland would remain in place, as would the East Midlands etc.
 

DynamicSpirit

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...and the size of Hastings compared to those places (especially when you add the population of Bexhill which is less than 200 meters away from Hastings)

Either Hastings has its own TARDIS or those are going to be a lot of mightily squashed people! :lol:
 

JamesRowden

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3.10 East Sussex
The Thameslink Programme originally implicated Eastbourne as an off peak journey destination. In order to maximise the benefit of Thameslink to passengers in East Sussex, I would retain the two trains per hour from London Victoria to Eastbourne (of which one continues to Hastings), the train dividing at Haywards Heath with a service to Littlehampton via Hove. Further train services would be two trains per hour from Brighton to Hastings (of which one train continues to Ashford International, and one train continues to Ore) and two trains per hour from Brighton to Seaford.

The speed increases planned for the Marshlink (which should be ready by the end of CP5) would reduce the journey time between Hastings and Ashford from 41 minutes to 35 minutes and allow 2tph to run between Hastings and Ashford. A second train per hour would be very usefull for making conections far more relaible, frequent and quicker at Ashford and give Rye 2tph (at the momment it is a 44 minute wait at Ashford to get from Hastings to Sandwich). A stopping Hastings to Ashford shuttle would only need two additional 2-car DMUs (or longer if demand was such). It would also be worth considering running the exra service to Eastbourne to allow Eastborune, Bexhill and St Leonards to have 2tph to Ashford (rather than having to change at Hastings). Changing at Ashford would be the fastest route from Bexhill to London (unless there is a 30 minute wait at Ashford or the Hastings to Victoria services are sped up by not splitting/joining enroute at Haywards Heath and/or the stopping pattern was altered to not stop at as many stations [Like the Brighton-Victoria express services]). If there was disruption affecting the Marshlink services (e.g. east of Hastings), servcies could be terminated/cancelled or join up to only allow 1tph along the single track section between Ore and Rye to allow the service to return to normal quickly which would not be possible if 2tph continued to run.

Also, it would be very usefull if 4tph ran between St Pancras and Ashford off-peak since it would guarantee a good connection time (no more than 15 minutes plus the time that it takes to walk between platforms). Two could run via Canterbury and two via Folkestone. Along each route one could run as a fast service and the other as a stopping service (replacing one of the Tonbridge services). The faster service via Dover could run as it sometimes presently does during the peak (to Sandwich) but be exended to Margate. The remaining stopping services along the two lines could run to Charing Cross with both services originating at Ramsgate (provides 2tph between Dover and Ramsgate).

With 4tph along the Maidstone East line to Ashford it should not be too incovinient for them to all terminate at Ashford and passengers change in order to get to other destinations. I think that the Victoria-Maidstone_East-Ashford services could both run at least as fast as the present semi-fast service and the Thameslink services (via London Bridge / Elephant & Castle) could operate the slower services. Terminating all Maidstone East services at Ashford also increases the robustness of the service in the event of disruption.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Either Hastings has its own TARDIS or those are going to be a lot of mightily squashed people! :lol:

I expected people to be able use their minds and work out that I was refering to the perimeters and not the centres. :D
 
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465fan

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The speed increases planned for the Marshlink (which should be ready by the end of CP5) would reduce the journey time between Hastings and Ashford from 41 minutes to 35 minutes and allow 2tph to run between Hastings and Ashford. A second train per hour would be very usefull for making conections far more relaible, frequent and quicker at Ashford and give Rye 2tph (at the momment it is a 44 minute wait at Ashford to get from Hastings to Sandwich). A stopping Hastings to Ashford shuttle would only need two additional 2-car DMUs (or longer if demand was such). It would also be worth considering running the exra service to Eastbourne to allow Eastborune, Bexhill and St Leonards to have 2tph to Ashford (rather than having to change at Hastings). Changing at Ashford would be the fastest route from Bexhill to London (unless there is a 30 minute wait at Ashford or the Hastings to Victoria services are sped up by not splitting/joining enroute at Haywards Heath and/or the stopping pattern was altered to not stop at as many stations [Like the Brighton-Victoria express services]). If there was disruption affecting the Marshlink services (e.g. east of Hastings), servcies could be terminated/cancelled or join up to only allow 1tph along the single track section between Ore and Rye to allow the service to return to normal quickly which would not be possible if 2tph continued to run.

Also, it would be very usefull if 4tph ran between St Pancras and Ashford off-peak since it would guarantee a good connection time (no more than 15 minutes plus the time that it takes to walk between platforms). Two could run via Canterbury and two via Folkestone. Along each route one could run as a fast service and the other as a stopping service (replacing one of the Tonbridge services). The faster service via Dover could run as it sometimes presently does during the peak (to Sandwich) but be exended to Margate. The remaining stopping services along the two lines could run to Charing Cross with both services originating at Ramsgate (provides 2tph between Dover and Ramsgate).

With 4tph along the Maidstone East line to Ashford it should not be too incovinient for them to all terminate at Ashford and passengers change in order to get to other destinations. I think that the Victoria-Maidstone_East-Ashford services could both run at least as fast as the present semi-fast service and the Thameslink services (via London Bridge / Elephant & Castle) could operate the slower services. Terminating all Maidstone East services at Ashford also increases the robustness of the service in the event of disruption.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I expected people to be able use their minds and work out that I was refering to the perimeters and not the centres. :D





Right...

Well, two trains per hour could run from Ashford to Hastings, but extending a 2 car along to Eastbourne would provide little benefit. A Brighton to Ashford 4 Car express and a 2 car Hastings to Ashford 'popper' would be sufficient.

4 Javelins an hour from St Pancras to Ashford - not viable.

4 trains an hour via Maidstone East - demand does not exist.
 

Southern

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4 Javelins an hour from St Pancras to Ashford - not viable.

Why would that be then? Services are extremely well used and an increased frequency would surely attract even more people. If not 4tph, then like I suggested before, have 2tph run from St Pancras dividing at Ashford; front portion for Dover Priory, rear portion for Margate.
 

465fan

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Why would that be then? Services are extremely well used and an increased frequency would surely attract even more people. If not 4tph, then like I suggested before, have 2tph run from St Pancras dividing at Ashford; front portion for Dover Priory, rear portion for Margate.





Ah - THAT is a viable option.

In the event, I would almost recommend that for Off Peak (as well as peak).

1tph - St Pancras to Margate (via Canterbury) & Dover Priory
1tph - St Pancras to Ramsgate (via Dover) & Canterbury West

But in all honesty, I would remove the surcharge for High Speed - I'd make it so everyone went on that!
 

JamesRowden

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Ah - THAT is a viable option.

In the event, I would almost recommend that for Off Peak (as well as peak).

1tph - St Pancras to Margate & Sandwich (I say Sandwich, it would be Ramsgate, but running via Dover)

1tph - St Pancras to Canterbury West & Dover Priory

But in all honesty, I would remove the surcharge for High Speed - I'd make it so everyone went on that!

Would it be worth extending the Canterbury part of your 'St Pancras to Canterbury West & Dover Priory' service to Margate?
 

Wolfie

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As people in North and South Kent will say that they're not happy with the new HS services as it slows down the standard services and reduces their frequencies and takes passengers a mile away (St Pancras).

So what if they built terminus platforms at Gravesend and Ashford Intrn'l and ran the domestic HS as shuttle trains to interchange with the standard SouthEastern services further along the line thus brining back the old frequencies and reducing the prices for the passenger along the way and giving them their old Victoria/Charing Cross/Canon Street terminals back in the process?

Two questions:
a Is the rolling stock for this available or has it been put to other use?
b Would it be possible given the changes being made at London Bridge?
 

JonathanH

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The Thameslink service goes to Three Bridges because the platforms are too short at Reigate and between Redhill and Tonbridge.

One suspects that either Reigate and Tonbridge lose off peak services to London when Thameslink is completed or the Arun Valley services get diverted to the Quarry line and their path through Redhill is taken by replacement Reigate/Tonbridge services.
 

si404

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Reigate and Tonbridge are possible candidates for the 4tph from Welwyn GC with Thameslink, or is it worse than 8-car?

Then again that's another 4tph Thameslink service made up of 2+2 (is Bedford - Brighton, with the exception of different stopping patterns, the only actual 4tph service?) - though less galling than say, Three Bridges/Horsham or Orpington/Sevenoaks, where there's a complimentary 2tph Victoria service with the same service pattern from East Croydon/Shortlands to Three Bridges/Orpington. Just make it a consistent 4tph service to Three Bridges and Orpington with 2tph Victoria service to Horsham and Sevenoaks instead of the everywhere-to-everywhere-else mush that is making a right pigs ear of the rail network in the SC/SE region.
 
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